The blessed Virgin and Traditionalism generally-speaking

[PiousTemplar]

It is not wrong to say what TrueLight said. Christ our Lord came to ontologically change humanity by His Incarnation, enlighten us by His ministry, save us by His death, and pull us up by His Resurrection. TrueLight just named one of the many tasks He came to perform, most truly.

FRIDAY MORNING:

“Almighty Father, it is truly righteous that we should, rising on this sorrowful day, offer repentance to You: holy and eternal God. He Whose arms You, wise and omnipotent, suffered to be spread across the breadth of the cruel tree, has preached justice in suffering, forgiven the evil in mercy, and bathed the wicked in His Blood. Therefore, while the sun rises on this crimson day, immolating the holy Lamb of God, we exult in penitential joy and beg your clemency on us, ever hoping in Your providence. With our brethren the Saints, with the silent Angels and Archangels, and with all the mourning spirits who fill the ranks of the celestial army, we shall honour the sacrifice of Your Son, humbly glorify Your sanctity, and surely proclaim Your Kingdom in the name of Jesus Christ, our Lord, through Whom You have redeemed the World.”

I didn’t mean that he was theologically incorrect, just the way it was said seemed to me disrespectful. I think it could of been said with a bit more reverence, when we are referring to Our Lord. Bah, perhaps I’m just being a hypocrite.

 

[Warrenton]

I was converted by models of Thomistic logic, who always emphasise that God alone is holy, merciful, and the Father of all people; given that, look at these: Alma Redemptoris asks Mary to “hear your people’s prayers”, and begs for “thy mercy” from her; Salve Regina calls her our life, sweetness, and hope; Ave Maris Stella asks her to loosen the chains of the guilty, send forth light, and dispel evil. These are petitions that are addressed to God alone in the Psalms. I find this a very conspicuous and, frankly, unnerving aspect of Catholicism; always have.

This certainly can be a puzzle, but one which is resolved (ultimately) through contemplation on the traditional understanding of the Blessed Virgin. As we have previously discussed, the traditional understanding is the product of a differerent age, and requires some immersion to be properly absorbed. The following link to St. Thomas Aquinas’s writings on the Blessed Virgin will direct you to the analysis I found helpful: campus.udayton.edu/mary/meditations/thomasaquinas.html

Hope it helps!

 

[simple_soul]

You know the way I believe I see it is that Mary and Jesus, with there lives as an example, laid out a road map for us to imitate and follow them to the Father and how God will work through us if we let Him, through Mary and Jesus, to unfold His plan for our salvation.

It is like they go hand in hand…the reason I believe one goes through Mary first is because to even let Jesus into our hearts so that we become Christ-like we have to be able to say yes to Him just like she did.

the more like Mary we are willing to become the more Christ-like we are willing to become…then the more Christ-like we become the more we will do God’s Will verses our own…but it all starts with following her simple yes to God.

I believe, speaking from my own spiritual journey, that we do not even realize how involved Mary is in our journey to God. Her role reminds me of the mother who takes the one child to the soccer game, another child to the sleepover party, and another to a dance recital. All the children remember the game, the party and the dance recital but no one really remembers how they got there.
When I think about it, in order to let Jesus into my heart and even start following Him I had to be like Mary and humbly say yes when He called. But I could not stop at just saying yes…I had to actually follow Jesus too…if I do not follow Him I would never get to the Father…
It is like we are responding to Jesus’ call, but the way we are responding is the way His Mother Mary responded to God with her yes…the more perfectly we imitate her the more perfectly we will imitate Christ and the more perfectly we imitate Christ the more perfectly we will respond to God’s Will for us…

I do not know if this helps anyone, hopefully it does and does not just add more confusion, but its just the way I see it right now so I thought I would share…hopefuly it makes some sense…

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

I personally do not see the problem. If you’re in a marriage and you want to know more about the person you love who would you go to? The Mother! If the mother isn’t alive then you go to the next person closest to them. Now can you have a relationship without talking to the mother or person closest to them? Sure but it’s going to be rocky and complicated and for what reason: because you were too uncomfortable with the idea of approaching these individuals! Just doesn’t make sense to take that approach: plus I wouldn’t see your significant other really approving of this approach especially since you’re all supposed to be one big family.

Now can you have a relationship with Christ without including his mother? Sure you can but it’s going to be a complicated and rocky one especiallywhen you consider the fact that Christ is not going to be too happy with you dodging His Mom since there really isn’t a good reason to dodge His Mom! You can’t be close to The Father if you’re not close to The Son and you can’t be close to The Son if you’re not close to His Mom.

 

[GloriousOrder]

I personally do not see the problem. If you’re in a marriage and you want to know more about the person you love who would you go to? The Mother! If the mother isn’t alive then you go to the next person closest to them. Now can you have a relationship without talking to the mother or person closest to them? Sure but it’s going to be rocky and complicated and for what reason: because you were too uncomfortable with the idea of approaching these individuals! Just doesn’t make sense to take that approach: plus I wouldn’t see your significant other really approving of this approach especially since you’re all supposed to be one big family.

Now can you have a relationship with Christ without including his mother? Sure you can but it’s going to be a complicated and rocky one especiallywhen you consider the fact that Christ is not going to be too happy with you dodging His Mom since there really isn’t a good reason to dodge His Mom! You can’t be close to The Father if you’re not close to The Son and you can’t be close to The Son if you’re not close to His Mom.

Sorry, but I think you’re humanizing our Lord way too much. He is full man, but He is also fully God, which means He contains all the wisdom of infinity and eternity in His being. To think that Jesus would be so petty as to get cross with us for “dodging” His mum is really very odd! Remember when someone came along and told Him that His mother and brethren/cousins were outside, waiting to see Him? He retorted that those who do the will of God are His mother and His brethren. This says soooo much! It’s amazing what dignity God has called us to, via the name of Jesus.

 

[Te_Deum]

Quite frankly it’s almost impossible to be a Catholic, never mind a “traditionalist”, without having devotion to Our Blessed Lady.

 

[GloriousOrder]

Quite frankly it’s almost impossible to be a Catholic, never mind a “traditionalist”, without having devotion to Our Blessed Lady.

A nice, sharp, short, and straight answer.

 

[Te_Deum]

Quite frankly it’s almost impossible to be a Catholic, never mind a “traditionalist”, having devotion to Our Blessed Lady.

Scratch that. It is impossible to be a Catholic without devotion to Our Blessed Lady.

 

[TrueLight]

Scratch that. It is impossible to be a Catholic without devotion to Our Blessed Lady.

First: Prove it.

Second: it depends on what you call devotion. There are degrees and everyone is not at the same level. So define devotion.

 

[Te_Deum]

First: Prove it.

Second: it depends on what you call devotion. There are degrees and everyone is not at the same level. So define devotion.

My comment is easily backed by two millennia of Church history. And quite honestly anything else I say will be wholly inadequate. Read Saint Louis de Montfort’s True Devotion or Saint Alphonsus’s Glories of Mary. Both can be found on the internet.

Every great saint has had some devotion to Our Mother. Whether it is a single Hail Mary a day or the total consecration of Saint Louis.

A complete avoidance of Mary and Marian devotion, even in its smallest form, is surely the sign of one who is not truly Catholic as they have no love for the Mother Christ Himself has given to us.

 

[TrueLight]

You know, I wasn’t going to come back to this thread because sometimes it is better for one’s spiritual life if one doesn’t respond to hostile, sarcastic remarks, but I decided to come back to respond to you.

Until you open your mind you will because apparently you still do. NO-ONE feels they HAVE TO go to Our Lady to reach Christ. It is INTERCESSION. The “THEY HAVE TO” thinking is in your mind, its your illusion projected in error.

You may not feel that way, but some people feel that way. How do I know? Because I have been told to my face. I don’t live in illusion. Do you:shrug:?

What you should say is, “what I don’t know, I don’t understand”, instead of what you don’t know, you don’t believe! Then create false senerios which is ego illusion.

Sorry, that is not the way you speak to someone if you want to make a difference in their thinking. You do speak that way if you want to be rude.

No-one has told this. However it also seems to be a point you wish to argue. What I did tell you is I found it for “myself” and others around me being lazy, ego and image.

Who is lazy? Seems to me YOU in fact have a lot of ego, my friend.

However anyone of them will openly admit its a Blessing, and nothing to play with, if you can’t find it in yourself to believe or pray for Her intercession.

Did I say here I don’t pray for her intercession? All I said is that I don’t believe you have to go through the Blessed Virgin to get to Jesus. And if you think no one is saying that, do a search on CAF.

What you are saying in the thread is you chose to pray directly to the Trinity. And no-one has an issue with this. However the topic of the OP was not this but doubting questions which indicated a lack of knowledge and preceived, projection.

You apparently are very knowledgeable.

In summary, any Christian who truly wants to illuminate someone’s thinking does not attack them or call them lazy, or tell them they live in illusion. However, if your goal was to attack and change someone’s disposition. it almost worked.

Good thing I happen to be reading Imitation of Christ this week, so it dulled some of my annoyance.

 

[TrueLight]

My comment is easily backed by two millennia of Church history. And quite honestly anything else I say will be wholly inadequate. Read Saint Louis de Montfort’s True Devotion or Saint Alphonsus’s Glories of Mary. Both can be found on the internet.

Let’s be real here. St Louis de Monfort and Saint Alphonsus, are obviously not going to be my favorite Saints.

A complete avoidance of Mary and Marian devotion, even in its smallest form, is surely the sign of one who is not truly Catholic as they have no love for the Mother Christ Himself has given to us.

That’s a fair answer. I think there are very few Catholics who don’t at least say a Hail Mary. Believe it or not, I do pray the rosary at times.

I just object to certain things, but I have already voiced those objections.

And with that, I really am going to back out of this thread because these types of threads start off nicely with apologetics and then degenerate.

 

[At_Trent]

Jesus was supposed to die. That was the plan.

Sorry friend, but I am really uncomfortable with what you said here. It seems disrespectful and irreverent towards Christ.

John 19:30 It is consummated.

Why else would He say that ?

 

[At_Trent]

Quite frankly it’s almost impossible to be a Catholic, never mind a “traditionalist”, without having devotion to Our Blessed Lady.

To be more accurate I’d change that to… “Quite frankly it’s almost impossible to be a Catholic, never mind a “traditionalist”, without honoring Our Blessed Lady.”

… but my initial feeling is to say it exactly as you said it

 

[Te_Deum]

To be more accurate I’d change that to… “Quite frankly it’s almost impossible to be a Catholic, never mind a “traditionalist”, honoring Our Blessed Lady.”

… but my initial feeling is to say it exactly as you said it

But I would in turn argue that to pay Our Queen due honour we must show her some devotion as Our Queen .

 

[GloriousOrder]

I wonder if I’d go to Hell for never once praying to the blessed Virgin from now on? The claims get “curiouser and curiouser”, so I don’t wonder that it might lead up to such a saying!

 

[Thomas_Redd]

Actually, people who claim to be “traditionalists” are actually “innovationalists.” They wish to bring back innovations, such as mass only in latin and Mary worship (mariolatry) which were discarded by the church in the reforms of the wonderful Second Vatican Council. I grew up in a home were everything was about Mary but Jesus was never mentioned. So I am bit sensitive to this. We need to be real traditionalists and go back to the teachings and practices of the apostles and the early church fathers. Clearly Mary was highly honored but not worshiped. She was not an alternate Great Mother Goddess as some Catholic make her out to be, in spite of consistent church teachings. Mary is one of us who God chose to be the “God Bearer” and to be assumed into heaven and indeed Queen of Heaven, but always one of us. These are great teachings, in fact some like the Incarnation are at the core of Christianity. But many other teachings about Mary are not at the core of Christianity, especially the numerous private revelations. Many of which are doubtful. I am now concerned that there is a real push among even some bishops to define infallibly that Mary is the Co-Redeemer of mankind. Now this touches our core beliefs. This is heresy. I know Pope John Paul set up a commission to look at this and they declined it. But heresy always will arise again. Hopefully the Pope will define that Jesus is the sole Redeemer of humanity. I often pray to Mary but I feel I do it in a way that follows the real traditions of the Church. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit always come first. If you don’t pray to Mary that is your choice and it will be acceptable to our God and will actually be consistent with the very first traditions of the church.

 

[TrueLight]

Actually, people who claim to be “traditionalists” are actually “innovationalists.” They wish to bring back innovations, such as mass only in latin and Mary worship (mariolatry) which were discarded by the church in the reforms of the wonderful Second Vatican Council. I grew up in a home were everything was about Mary but Jesus was never mentioned. So I am bit sensitive to this. We need to be real traditionalists and go back to the teachings and practices of the apostles and the early church fathers. Clearly Mary was highly honored but not worshiped. She was not an alternate Great Mother Goddess as some Catholic make her out to be, in spite of consistent church teachings. Mary is one of us who God chose to be the “God Bearer” and to be assumed into heaven and indeed Queen of Heaven, but always one of us. These are great teachings, in fact some like the Incarnation are at the core of Christianity. But many other teachings about Mary are not at the core of Christianity, especially the numerous private revelations. Many of which are doubtful. I am now concerned that there is a real push among even some bishops to define infallibly that Mary is the Co-Redeemer of mankind. Now this touches our core beliefs. This is heresy. I know Pope John Paul set up a commission to look at this and they declined it. But heresy always will arise again. Hopefully the Pope will define that Jesus is the sole Redeemer of humanity. I often pray to Mary but I feel I do it in a way that follows the real traditions of the Church. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit always come first. If you don’t pray to Mary that is your choice and it will be acceptable to our God and will actually be consistent with the very first traditions of the church.

edited: I forgot I was done with the thread.

 

[GloriousOrder]

Thomas Redd, I appreciate the fact that you signed up and are helping out, but there’s no need to go about making “Great Mother Goddess” remarks. No serious Catholic believes that Marian devotion is that extensive and cult-like.

 

[Hunter53]

Actually, people who claim to be “traditionalists” are actually “innovationalists.” They wish to bring back innovations, such as mass only in latin and Mary worship (mariolatry) which were discarded by the church in the reforms of the wonderful Second Vatican Council. I grew up in a home were everything was about Mary but Jesus was never mentioned. So I am bit sensitive to this. We need to be real traditionalists and go back to the teachings and practices of the apostles and the early church fathers. Clearly Mary was highly honored but not worshiped. She was not an alternate Great Mother Goddess as some Catholic make her out to be, in spite of consistent church teachings. Mary is one of us who God chose to be the “God Bearer” and to be assumed into heaven and indeed Queen of Heaven, but always one of us. These are great teachings, in fact some like the Incarnation are at the core of Christianity. But many other teachings about Mary are not at the core of Christianity, especially the numerous private revelations. Many of which are doubtful. I am now concerned that there is a real push among even some bishops to define infallibly that Mary is the Co-Redeemer of mankind. Now this touches our core beliefs. This is heresy. I know Pope John Paul set up a commission to look at this and they declined it. But heresy always will arise again. Hopefully the Pope will define that Jesus is the sole Redeemer of humanity. I often pray to Mary but I feel I do it in a way that follows the real traditions of the Church. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit always come first. If you don’t pray to Mary that is your choice and it will be acceptable to our God and will actually be consistent with the very first traditions of the church.

I don’t know to many traditionalist that do worship Mary. Most of the ones that I know realize that we honor Her, as we should but don’t worship Her. I’m not sure where you got this idea but I don’t agree with you. I also don’t believe that so many Catholics here have a problem giving Her the honor that is due to Her.