The blessed Virgin's intercession "vs." Christ's intercession

[JM3]

Im sure this has probably also been discussed to death on here as well, but can someone please sum up what the co-redemtrix actually means? I really very much hope it doesnt mean that Mary is close to the same level as Jesus and she can forgive our sins

catholicsource.net/articles/coredemptrix.html

Here’s a short description from the petition submitted to the Pope:

When the Church invokes Mary under the title, “Coredemptrix”, she means that Mary uniquely participated in the redemption of the human family by Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Saviour. At the Annunciation (cf.Lk.1:38) Mary freely cooperated in giving the Second Person of the Trinity his human body which is the very instrument of redemption, as Scripture tells us: “We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (Heb.10:10).

And at the foot of the cross of our Saviour (Jn.19:26), Mary’s intense sufferings, united with those of her Son, as Pope John Paul II tells us, were, “also a contribution to the Redemption of us all” (Salvifici Doloris, n.25). Because of this intimate sharing in the redemption accomplished by the Lord, the Mother of the Redeemer is uniquely and rightly referred to by Pope John Paul II and the Church as the “Coredemptrix.”

It is important to note that the prefix “co” in the title Coredemptrix does not mean “equal to” but rather “with”, coming from the Latin word cum. The Marian title Coredemptrix never places Mary on a level of equality with her Divine Son, Jesus Christ. Rather it refers to Mary’s unique human participation which is completely secondary and subordinate to the redeeming role of Jesus, who alone is true God and true Man.

 

[catharina]

catholicsource.net/articles/coredemptrix.html

Many thanks.

 

[pablope]

Im sure this has probably also been discussed to death on here as well, but can someone please sum up what the co-redemtrix actually means? I really very much hope it doesnt mean that Mary is close to the same level as Jesus and she can forgive our sins

The Latin word “co” means “with”, and is not on the same level as Jesus, it is way subordinate to Christ.

If you want to do some reading, a book recommendation is “Hail Holy Queen” by Scott Hahn, that explains the Marian dogmas and Mary’s role.

motherofallpeoples.com/Articles/Great_Papal_Excerpts/qmary-joins-her-suffering-to-jesus-priestly-sacrificeq.html

The Council text also stresses that her consent to Jesus’ immolation is not passive acceptance but a genuine act of love, by which she offers her Son as a “victim” of expiation for the sins of all humanity.

Lastly, Lumen gentium relates the Blessed Virgin to Christ, who has the lead role in Redemption, making it clear that in associating herself “with his sacrifice” she remains subordinate to her divine Son.

In the Fourth Gospel, St John says that “standing by the Cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene” (19:25). By using the verb “to stand,” which literally means “to be on one’s feet,” “to stand erect,” perhaps the Evangelist intends to present the dignity and strength shown in their sorrow by Mary and the other women.

The Blessed Virgin’s “standing erect” at the foot of the Cross recalls her unfailing constancy and extraordinary courage in facing suffering. In the tragic events of Calvary, Mary is sustained by faith, strengthened during the events of her life and especially during Jesus’ public life. The Council recalls that “the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the Cross” (Lumen gentium, n. 58).

 

[JM3]

To be picky, St. Paul says we should always pray for each other, not that we should ask others to pray for each other. I feel wrong asking anyone to pray for me, dead or alive, because I am the one who is responsible for my sins. Let them pray for me if they want, but I don’t want to ask anybody.

divinemercy.com.au/devotionalprayers.htm

When they say this Chaplet in the presence of the dying, I will stand between My Father and the dying person, not as the Judge but as the Merciful Saviour (Diary 1541)

 

[panevino]

No, not really. I feel irresponsible pushing my duties on them.

I do, but I don’t say “hey, I’m going to pray for you”. Besides, only I know that I am praying for X at any given time. No one told me Saint Thomas or the blessed Virgin is praying for me. It’s all so very cold and lonely down here… and silent.

disciples are in a sense spiritual sons of Mary, i say of course she is praying for us. John 19:26-28, (gen17:15-19 &isa 51:2 : Luke 1:28-48)

Saints interceding for those on earth is shown in
Rev6:9-10
2macc15:12-26
Mat19:28

Asking others to pray for you - Acts 8:24

To be picky, St. Paul says we should always pray for each other, not that we should ask others to pray for each other. I feel wrong asking anyone to pray for me, dead or alive, because I am the one who is responsible for my sins. Let them pray for me if they want, but I don’t want to ask anybody.

see above

The paragraph about St. Paul is actually a great example of what I mean. Our holy Scriptures say that the prayers of a righteous one are heard by God first and primarily. Catholics tend to use this as an example of why we should pray to saints, but I think it is meant as an injunction, telling us to become righteous ourselves. St. Paul was saying that he was doing everything he could to work with the blessed Trinity to procure good fruit in the world. It sounds more like a defense of free will than anything to do with intercession.

the centurions servant was healed based on the strong faith of the gentile.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I don’t explain it theologically (because I can’t). That’s not addressed just to the OP, but also to TrueLight and to Koontz.

The “why” is because of experience. Ask most people who do pray for Mary’s intercession (and ask them to compare the resuls of that vs. the results of praying directly to Jesus, or to the Father), the vast majority duplicate my answer: Because it works. Becuase the woman is amazingly fast and direct, that’s why. Go figure. I don’t analyze it. I’m just incredibly grateful to have such an intimate & trusting relationship with her.



(I’m sure this is not the theological answer you seek. However, you could then rephrase your original question: Why is Mary’s intercession so demonstrably effective?)

 

[DaveBj]

I don’t explain it theologically (because I can’t). That’s not addressed just to the OP, but also to TrueLight and to Koontz.

The “why” is because of experience. Ask most people who do pray for Mary’s intercession (and ask them to compare the resuls of that vs. the results of praying directly to Jesus, or to the Father), the vast majority duplicate my answer: Because it works. Becuase the woman is amazingly fast and direct, that’s why. Go figure. I don’t analyze it. I’m just incredibly grateful to have such an intimate & trusting relationship with her.



(I’m sure this is not the theological answer you seek. However, you could then rephrase your original question: Why is Mary’s intercession so demonstrably effective?)

This is not my experience. I can’t trace any benefits in my life to praying to Mary or the other saints. Part of that may be due to the fact that I have come to have no faith at all in the efficacy of praying to saints, and prayer without faith is just wasted air. (On the other hand, my lack of faith in the efficacy of praying to saints can be traced to not seeing any results.)

It has gotten to the point that I have replaced the “Hail Marys” in the Rosary with a prayer to Jesus, seen in its Latin form in my sig. I know, this makes it a chaplet, not a Rosary, but it’s going to be a job of work convincing me that I’m doing anything wrong by concentrating my prayer focus on the Lord of Creation rather than on His creatures.

OP, you and I could be twins in our attitudes on this subject.

 

[GloriousOrder]

This is not my experience. I can’t trace any benefits in my life to praying to Mary or the other saints. Part of that may be due to the fact that I have come to have no faith at all in the efficacy of praying to saints, and prayer without faith is just wasted air. (On the other hand, my lack of faith in the efficacy of praying to saints can be traced to not seeing any results.)

It has gotten to the point that I have replaced the “Hail Marys” in the Rosary with a prayer to Jesus, seen in its Latin form in my sig. I know, this makes it a chaplet, not a Rosary, but it’s going to be a job of work convincing me that I’m doing anything wrong by concentrating my prayer focus on the Lord of Creation rather than on His creatures.

OP, you and I could be twins in our attitudes on this subject.

Wow, that’s a very moving fact for the brevity of your post. Yes, I find myself unable to pray the rosary lately. Ironically I’ve fell into my most frequent sin less frequently since I stopped praying the rosary… it may have no correlation at all, and it may be everything. Regardless, I want to start using the beads to pray Our Fathers on the decades, and Glory Bes on the individual ones. I’ll replace everything else with Creeds, Te Deum… anything to take the uncomfortable focus away, for me.

Friends, I appreciate that you are all experienced with the blessed Virgin helping you ‘fast’, or maybe St. Terese of Lisieux sending flowers within 9 days. I just don’t see it ever working or meaning anything.

 

[TrueLight]

it’s going to be a job of work convincing me that I’m doing anything wrong by concentrating my prayer focus on the Lord of Creation rather than on His creatures.

You can NEVER go wrong when it comes to focusing on God.

 

[Elizabeth502]

This is not my experience. I can’t trace any benefits in my life to praying to Mary or the other saints. Part of that may be due to the fact that I have come to have no faith at all in the efficacy of praying to saints, and prayer without faith is just wasted air.

I think you just answered your own question.

(The population I was referencing is not a population which conceives of prayer as “wasted air.”)
I come to Mary with immense trust and assumptiveness. OTOH, she’s always Been There for me, so in my case, and the case of those whose experiences are similar/identical to mine, it’s hard to know where the beginning of that circle was.

Catholic spirituality maintains that ultimately it is the Holy Spirit Himself who calls us to prayer, who stirs the heart. It is He who implants the faith/hope/trust that urges us to call on The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, Mary, and/or saints.

 

[Elizabeth502]

It’s going to be a job of work convincing me that I’m doing anything wrong by concentrating my prayer focus on the Lord of Creation rather than on His creatures.

Who on this thread said such a thing? Who is trying to “convince” you not to pray directly to God?
And why would you assume that Catholic theology or spirituality maintains that somehow it’s “wrong” to “focus on God”?

Do you think that other Catholics do not pray to God, or rarely do? Do you think that most Catholics in pews at Mass pray mostly to Mary? Or are they just maybe focusing on what’s going on at the altar? (The Son of God, maybe? )

Mary has specific roles in Catholic spirituality. She never replaces God nor is equal to Him, let alone superior. Mary’s role, for those who seek her aid, is to point to Her Son. Always. Mary is my avenue, and the avenue of millions of other Catholics, to arrive more quickly to her Son, or more directly relative to our pragmatic needs of the moment.

But when I receive the sacraments, my prayer life is with Jesus. I do usually pray to Mary before Mass for the receptivity I need during Mass, as she is the ultimate receiver. And she makes that possible, too, extremely quickly. Then I turn my focus to where it belongs – not to her, to her Son.

A lot of myths on this thread. A ton, in fact.

 

[DaveBj]

I think you just answered your own question.

I didn’t really express a question, but I take your point. I came from a Protestant tradition that taught firmly that what one doesn’t believe in, one cannot receive.

Who on this thread said such a thing? Who is trying to “convince” you not to pray directly to God?
And why would you assume that Catholic theology or spirituality maintains that somehow it’s “wrong” to “focus on God”?

Do you think that other Catholics do not pray to God, or rarely do? Do you think that most Catholics in pews at Mass pray mostly to Mary? Or are they just maybe focusing on what’s going on at the altar? (The Son of God, maybe? )

Mary has specific roles in Catholic spirituality. She never replaces God nor is equal to Him, let alone superior. Mary’s role, for those who seek her aid, is to point to Her Son. Always. Mary is my avenue, and the avenue of millions of other Catholics, to arrive more quickly to her Son, or more directly relative to our pragmatic needs of the moment.

But when I receive the sacraments, my prayer life is with Jesus. I do usually pray to Mary before Mass for the receptivity I need during Mass, as she is the ultimate receiver. And she makes that possible, too, extremely quickly. Then I turn my focus to where it belongs – not to her, to her Son.

A lot of myths on this thread. A ton, in fact.

I’m afraid it’s you that is making assumptions. Just because a statement is made on a thread does not mean that it is in answer to a contrary statement. That said, I have read severe criticism on other threads directed at people who have trouble praying to saints. It hasn’t been expressed on this thread, but it has been expressed in these forums.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

We say every Sunday that we believe in the Communion of Saints. It’s not just me and Jesus – it’s the Family of God that we as Catholics belong to, and we all contribute to each other’s salvation through our sufferings and prayers – whether we are in heaven, as are Mary and the saints, or in Purgatory, as are the suffering souls, or here on earth…

Do you believe St. Paul?: Colossians1:24 - “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and it is in my flesh that I complete what is lacking in Chris’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church . . .”

The footnote in the RSV says “because of mystical union of the believers with Christ, what Paul suffers for the sake of . . . the church can be called Christ’s afflictions.”

And it’s because of this mystical union of the believers with Christ that the prayers of Mary and the saints are so powerful and effective. The whole Mystical Body is at prayer for one another.

Natural born Catholics don’t seem to have this problem. Prayers to the Mary and the saints are as natural as breathing. Some converts still suffer from the influence of the impoverished me-and-Jesus mentality of Protestantism. Pray that they may learn to think with the mind of the Church.

That’s my :twocents:

Jim Dandy
St. Damien, pray for us

 

[Elizabeth502]

I’m afraid it’s you that is making assumptions.

About what? I quoted you. You admitted that your faith in prayer (in general) is weak. So is the faith of lots of people. My faith is imperfect. I’m just saying that faith (and trust, and an attitude of hope) is really essential to the efficacy of prayer. These are qualities that I often lack/am insufficient in. My deficiencies are related to my responses to my own prayers.

I didn’t assume anything about you that you did not admit.

#2 – you boxed a quote for me that either you or I made a mistake about, because the second part of that “quote” was not I. Perhaps I mistakenly boxed something incorrectly myself, but I know I never used the word Protestants (not deliberately anyway).

#3 -

I have read severe criticism on other threads directed at people who have trouble praying to saints. It hasn’t been expressed on this thread, but it has been expressed in these forums.

Since it hasn’t been expressed on this thread, it’s inappropriate to bring it up here as a Straw Man, a red herring, or to indirectly implicate those of us on this thread who simply admit that Mary is a speedy and effective intercessor in our journey to Christ.

On other threads, no one should be criticizing anyone else for prayer habits & decisions. I haven’t seen those other threads, however. If there were implications on those threads that supposedly Catholics who direct prayers additionally to Mary and/or the Saints are Catholics who somehow don’t have high enough regard for God, have a weak understanding of who God is (relative to saints & to Mary), then perhaps those posters became angry & defensive. This is a different thread.

 

[rinnie]

Friends ,

I often hear Catholics (“our life, our sweetness, and our hope”) and Orthodox (“most holy Theotokos, save us”) speak of the blessed Virgin in an intercessory manner. In addition to referring to her as Mediatrix, Vatican I is quite strong about her mediation. This is one thing that I was never fully convinced about since converting, and no one seemed eager to explain the situation to me. I became a Catholic without knowing all about the holy Mother of God.

My question is: why is Mary super-added as an intercessor to Christ, when Christ alone is said to be interceding for us to the Father? This has been answered a million times, I know, but my specific context is the relation between Mary/Christ and Christ/the Father. If we already have Christ our Lord interceding for us to the Father, the Ancient of Days, why would we need our Lady to intercede to Christ, who then intercedes to the Father? There is a step here that’s added on to what is given in the holy Scriptures.

Christ is infinite God. The blessed Virgin is finite human. Why should we have to go through Mary to get to Christ, who then gets us to the Father? This unbalances everything. I don’t understand the point.

Lets show you this another way. When you were a child and you knew when your Father came home you were going to be in trouble. Who was the first person you ran to? Your Mother right. A Mother has a special bond with her child no matter what.

There is always a gentleness and love that a Mother has, it can’t be described. Just like our Father has a special love for us in heaven so does a mother.

Now do you not agree that a Son would want to do all he could to answer the prayers of his Mother.

But the reason we ask the Blessed Mother to pray for us is a number of reasons.

Here is why my Dad taught me. When you are in trouble ask the Blessed Mother to pray for you, No one suffered like her, she will understand your pain, she had to watch her son killed on the cross. She is hold your hand and understand your pain. And she will go with you to her Son for help.

 

[NorthTexan88]

I know this thread is about marian intercession but I didnt want to open a new thread just to ask one question.

Why does it seem that Mary is the one that apprears all of the time? Why does Jesus never appear, why is it always Mary? I was watching a youtube video (which you shud never do), and it was talking about how it was satan in discuise. It makes sense though, what better way to deceive that to charade as someone that Catholics revere so much. Also, do non-catholics ever see Mary?

 

[Elizabeth502]

NorthTexan,
I don’t know about “always” Mary. Faustina saw Jesus. Lots of other saints and apparently non-canonized people claim to have had a visual encounter with Jesus. I do know that non-Christians and non-believers have encountered Jesus in visions and NDE’s. I have no information about non-Catholic encounters with Mary.

 

[SteveGC]

I know this thread is about marian intercession but I didnt want to open a new thread just to ask one question.

Why does it seem that Mary is the one that apprears all of the time? Why does Jesus never appear, why is it always Mary? I was watching a youtube video (which you shud never do), and it was talking about how it was satan in discuise. It makes sense though, what better way to deceive that to charade as someone that Catholics revere so much. Also, do non-catholics ever see Mary?

I don’t think Satan has power to reveal himself outside of physical human possession, so that would seem to preclude verified spiritual visions from being disguises.

Why not Jesus appearing? Maybe it is in fact because of her intercessory role? Perhaps she is indeed more important in salvation than we realize? Makes sense to me.

Not sure if any non-Catholics have seen Mary. I wouldn’t be surprised though, I can’t see why not.

 

[rinnie]

I know this thread is about marian intercession but I didnt want to open a new thread just to ask one question.

Why does it seem that Mary is the one that apprears all of the time? Why does Jesus never appear, why is it always Mary? I was watching a youtube video (which you shud never do), and it was talking about how it was satan in discuise. It makes sense though, what better way to deceive that to charade as someone that Catholics revere so much. Also, do non-catholics ever see Mary?

Well lets exercise a little bit of common sense here first of all. Now do you REALLY think that the devil would tell the Children to pray to her son Jesus?

 

[LilyM]

Well lets exercise a little bit of common sense here first of all. Now do you REALLY think that the devil would tell the Children to pray to her son Jesus?

More specifically, would the devil teach anyone the Fatima prayer, taught by Our Lady to the child seers there? It goes “Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell, lead all souls to heaven especially those who have most need of your mercy”?!