The blessed Virgin's intercession "vs." Christ's intercession

[catharina]

I think you just answered your own question.

(The population I was referencing is not a population which conceives of prayer as “wasted air.”)
I come to Mary with immense trust and assumptiveness. OTOH, she’s always Been There for me, so in my case, and the case of those whose experiences are similar/identical to mine, it’s hard to know where the beginning of that circle was.

Catholic spirituality maintains that ultimately it is the Holy Spirit Himself who calls us to prayer, who stirs the heart. It is He who implants the faith/hope/trust that urges us to call on The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, Mary, and/or saints.

Perfect post. Thank you, Elizabeth.

 

[NorthTexan88]

Yea thank you for the help, I guess its all apart of the process of becoming Catholic to ask these questions.

 

[catharina]

Who on this thread said such a thing? Who is trying to “convince” you not to pray directly to God?
And why would you assume that Catholic theology or spirituality maintains that somehow it’s “wrong” to “focus on God”?
Do you think that other Catholics do not pray to God, or rarely do? Do you think that most Catholics in pews at Mass pray mostly to Mary? Or are they just maybe focusing on what’s going on at the altar? (The Son of God, maybe? )

Mary has specific roles in Catholic spirituality. She never replaces God nor is equal to Him, let alone superior. Mary’s role, for those who seek her aid, is to point to Her Son. Always. Mary is my avenue, and the avenue of millions of other Catholics, to arrive more quickly to her Son, or more directly relative to our pragmatic needs of the moment.

But when I receive the sacraments, my prayer life is with Jesus. I do usually pray to Mary before Mass for the receptivity I need during Mass, as she is the ultimate receiver. And she makes that possible, too, extremely quickly. Then I turn my focus to where it belongs – not to her, to her Son.

A lot of myths on this thread. A ton, in fact.

…

Friends, I appreciate that you are all experienced with the blessed Virgin helping you ‘fast’, or maybe St. Terese of Lisieux sending flowers within 9 days. I just don’t see it ever working or meaning anything.

How do you introduce Therese of Lisieux and flowers?
What’s that?

Do you understand that the CHURCH embraces many forms of prayer?

 

[catharina]

We say every Sunday that we believe in the Communion of Saints. It’s not just me and Jesus – it’s the Family of God that we as Catholics belong to, and we all contribute to each other’s salvation through our sufferings and prayers – whether we are in heaven, as are Mary and the saints, or in Purgatory, as are the suffering souls, or here on earth…

Do you believe St. Paul?: Colossians1:24 - “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and it is in my flesh that I complete what is lacking in Chris’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church . . .”

The footnote in the RSV says “because of mystical union of the believers with Christ, what Paul suffers for the sake of . . . the church can be called Christ’s afflictions.”

And it’s because of this mystical union of the believers with Christ that the prayers of Mary and the saints are so powerful and effective. The whole Mystical Body is at prayer for one another.

Natural born Catholics don’t seem to have this problem. Prayers to the Mary and the saints are as natural as breathing. Some converts still suffer from the influence of the impoverished me-and-Jesus mentality of Protestantism. Pray that they may learn to think with the mind of the Church.

That’s my :twocents:

Jim Dandy
St. Damien, pray for us

Wonderful post.

Others, coming from no belief at all, seem very ready
to question the faith and prayer-life of others - when it is
they, newcomers, who might in fact be lacking in the experience of praying.

It’s so odd to argue against another’s form of prayer!

 

[catharina]

I know this thread is about marian intercession but I didnt want to open a new thread just to ask one question.

Why does it seem that Mary is the one that apprears all of the time? Why does Jesus never appear, why is it always Mary? I was watching a youtube video (which you shud never do), and it was talking about how it was satan in discuise. It makes sense though, what better way to deceive that to charade as someone that Catholics revere so much. Also, do non-catholics ever see Mary?

Primary among saints known to us
who have been visited by Our Lord is

Saint Margaret Mary Alacoque, Apostle of the Sacred Heart of Jesus.

Link:

sacredheart.com/SaintMargaretMaryAlacoque.htm

 

[twf]

I think the OP has to remember that as Catholics we believe that we are truly called to be sons of God. It took a while for me, as a former Protestant myself, to fully realize the implications of this very Biblical teaching. Scripture clearly teaches that Our Lord is the one mediator between man and God - yet at the same time, we see examples of others (as other posters have already illustrated) both on earth and in heaven (eg. the elders in Revelation 4 and the angel in Revelation 8 both offering up intercessory prayers in heaven) participating in Our Lord’s work of mediation. Why is this? Is Our Lord’s intercession insufficient? Was His work on the cross insufficient? Not at all! The simple answer is, simply put, that Our Lord WILLS to share His divine work with his adopted brothers and sisters…and most especially with His Holy Mother through whom He adopted our own human nature. The Church teaches that Second Person of the Blessed Trinity assumed our lowly human nature in order to glorify it and raise it to eternal glory. In the person of Jesus, mankind has conquered death and reigns in glory at the right hand of the Father. John 1:12 tells us that Christ gave those whom He called the power to become sons of God…when we are adopted as sons and daughters of God at our baptism, we aren’t simply given a cool title…we are truly transformed, through the sacraments, in our very being, truly participating in the divine sonship of Christ. St. Paul teaches us that we are destined to share in Christ’s glory as his co-heirs (Romans 8:17). This is not something that we deserve nor something that we can merit…it is a gift of infinite value that Christ the Man-God won for his adopted brothers and sisters, the human race, through his passion, death, and resurrection. If we are co-heirs of Christ, how can you logically deny that we, especially those who have been perfected in heaven, the saints and Our Blessed Mother, can also be his co-intercessors? Especially when we are commanded again and again to intercede for one another in Scripture. Our Blessed Lady, through whom Our Lord affected the mystery of the Incarnation, plays a special role in salvation and, as His most holy and perfect mother, is closest to His Sacred Heart…we can already see in Scripture at the wedding of Cana that her role is to intercede for her children - not because Christ’s intercession is insufficient, but because He wills to share His glory with his saints - particularly with His Mother. If you read the account of Cana in John 2, Our Lord clearly tells His Mother that it was not his time…so why did He perform the miracle if it was not yet His time? The answer is obvious - out of His love for Her, as the perfect Mother he himself created to make possible our salvation, He will not deny her requests.

Catechism of the Catholic Church #460:

The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81
78 2 Pt 1:4.
79 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 3, 19, 1: PG 7/1, 939.
80 St. Athanasius, De inc. 54, 3: PG 25, 192B.
81 St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusc. 57, 1-4.

I would invite the OP to also meditate on the Scripture verses/comments here scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html and here scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

 

[catharina]

I think the OP has to remember that as Catholics we believe that we are truly called to be sons of God. It took a while for me, as a former Protestant myself, to fully realize the implications of this very Biblical teaching. Scripture clearly teaches that Our Lord is the one mediator between man and God - yet at the same time, we see examples of others (as other posters have already illustrated) both on earth and in heaven (eg. the elders in Revelation 4 and the angel in Revelation 8 both offering up intercessory prayers in heaven) participating in Our Lord’s work of mediation. Why is this? Is Our Lord’s intercession insufficient? Was His work on the cross insufficient? Not at all! The simple answer is, simply put, that Our Lord WILLS to share His divine work with his adopted brothers and sisters…and most especially with His Holy Mother through whom He adopted our own human nature. The Church teaches that Second Person of the Blessed Trinity assumed our lowly human nature in order to glorify it and raise it to eternal glory. In the person of Jesus, mankind has conquered death and reigns in glory at the right hand of the Father. John 1:12 tells us that Christ gave those whom He called the power to become sons of God…when we are adopted as sons and daughters of God at our baptism, we aren’t simply given a cool title…we are truly transformed, through the sacraments, in our very being, truly participating in the divine sonship of Christ. St. Paul teaches us that we are destined to share in Christ’s glory as his co-heirs (Romans 8:17). This is not something that we deserve nor something that we can merit…it is a gift of infinite value that Christ the Man-God won for his adopted brothers and sisters, the human race, through his passion, death, and resurrection. If we are co-heirs of Christ, how can you logically deny that we, especially those who have been perfected in heaven, the saints and Our Blessed Mother, can also be his co-intercessors? Especially when we are commanded again and again to intercede for one another in Scripture. Our Blessed Lady, through whom Our Lord affected the mystery of the Incarnation, plays a special role in salvation and, as His most holy and perfect mother, is closest to His Sacred Heart…we can already see in Scripture at the wedding of Cana that her role is to intercede for her children - not because Christ’s intercession is insufficient, but because He wills to share His glory with his saints - particularly with His Mother. If you read the account of Cana in John 2, Our Lord clearly tells His Mother that it was not his time…so why did He perform the miracle if it was not yet His time? The answer is obvious - out of His love for Her, as the perfect Mother he himself created to make possible our salvation, He will not deny her requests.

Catechism of the Catholic Church #460:

I would invite the OP to also meditate on the Scripture verses/comments here scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html and here scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

Beautiful post.
Thank you.

 

[GloriousOrder]

A lot of myths on this thread. A ton, in fact.

Please show me what they are and refute them! I beg you!

Natural born Catholics don’t seem to have this problem. Prayers to the Mary and the saints are as natural as breathing. Some converts still suffer from the influence of the impoverished me-and-Jesus mentality of Protestantism. Pray that they may learn to think with the mind of the Church.

This is an interesting fact to acknowledge. A discrepancy…

Lets show you this another way. When you were a child and you knew when your Father came home you were going to be in trouble. Who was the first person you ran to? Your Mother right. A Mother has a special bond with her child no matter what.

There is always a gentleness and love that a Mother has, it can’t be described. Just like our Father has a special love for us in heaven so does a mother.

I do not believe this analogy applies. Nervous emotional bonds between parents and child is quite different from what God really is. “Our Father” is a metaphor, isn’t it? God isn’t our literal Father in the way our individual parents are. That isn’t even possible. Still, He shares a common human flesh with us now (thank God).

Wonderful post.

Others, coming from no belief at all, seem very ready
to question the faith and prayer-life of others - when it is
they, newcomers, who might in fact be lacking in the experience of praying.

It’s so odd to argue against another’s form of prayer!

I’m not arguing against “another’s” form of prayer. I’m trying to figure out what’s right and what’s wrong. I don’t want to ever be blasphemous.

 

[catharina]

I do not believe this analogy applies. Nervous emotional bonds between parents and child is quite different from what God really is. “Our Father” is a metaphor, isn’t it? God isn’t our literal Father in the way our individual parents are. That isn’t even possible. Still, He shares a common human flesh with us now (thank God).

To pretend to know the mind of God, to dismiss the reality
of the title of Father when **we are called to so address God **
is to miss quite a bit of the meaning of Chrisitanity. Indeed,
we are one family in God.

It is Jesus Himself Who calls us to address God as Father.
I see no metaphor in that. I can’t imagine what you mean
when you say “Nervous emotional bonds between parents
and child is quite different from what God really is.”

God, the Author of all life, is Father to us, to our parents,
to all of our ancesters, by His own will and “desire.” God
is Love and being Love, invites us to “know” Him as our
Father. In speaking of the Triune God, we are instructed
to know God in the Personhood of Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
It is the basis of our faith, repeated in every creed.

 

[JM3]

I don’t want to ever be blasphemous.

You already have been.

I feel wrong asking anyone to pray for me, dead or alive, because I am the one who is responsible for my sins. Let them pray for me if they want, but I don’t want to ask anybody.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2B.HTM

953 Communion in charity. In the sanctorum communio, "None of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself."487 "If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it."488 "Charity does not insist on its own way."489 In this solidarity with all men, living or dead, which is founded on the communion of saints, the least of our acts done in charity redounds to the profit of all. Every sin harms this communion.

 

[rinnie]

More specifically, would the devil teach anyone the Fatima prayer, taught by Our Lady to the child seers there? It goes “Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell, lead all souls to heaven especially those who have most need of your mercy”?!

Yes, thats what I am saying. I don’t think that would be considered doing the devils work

 

[rinnie]

Glorious Order, I have a question for you.

You stated you don’t ever want anyone to pray for your or your sins.

Explain this to me. Go to the book of Job and explain to me why God told Job’s friends to have Job pray for them becasue he was righteous.

Then when you get done with that explain to me if we are not to pray for one another. Why did Jesus say to Peter that Peter the devil wants you but I Have Prayed for you.

Why would Jesus himself pray for Peter if it is better for Peter to pray for himself?

 

[catharina]

Glorious Order, I have a question for you.

You stated you don’t ever want anyone to pray for your or your sins.

Explain this to me. Go to the book of Job and explain to me why God told Job’s friends to have Job pray for them becasue he was righteous.

Then when you get done with that explain to me if we are not to pray for one another. Why did Jesus say to Peter that Peter the devil wants you but I Have Prayed for you.

Why would Jesus himself pray for Peter if it is better for Peter to pray for himself?

Lovely, rinnie, and thank you.

 

[pablope]

I know this thread is about marian intercession but I didnt want to open a new thread just to ask one question.

Why does it seem that Mary is the one that apprears all of the time? Why does Jesus never appear, why is it always Mary? I was watching a youtube video (which you shud never do), and it was talking about how it was satan in discuise. It makes sense though, what better way to deceive that to charade as someone that Catholics revere so much.

God or Jesus has their own reasons. But Mary, ever obedient to her son, always obeys and follows and strives to lead us to her son.

I do not know…but what would a non-C do if he/she saw Mary?

You should, if you are interested, look/investigate further the Fatima Miracle of the Sun…where over 50,000 witnessed the event…both Catholics and skeptics.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Mintaka]

Plenty of people see apparitions and visions of saints who aren’t Mary. Of course, a lot depends on what the Lord thinks people will find meaningful.

St. Michael the Archangel used to be extremely common for visions back in the day, especially when people used to ask his intercession more for a happy death. St. Joseph is very common, as is Mary’s mom St. Anne. St. Catherine of Alexandria is a biggie. St. Joan of Arc of course heard St. Margaret, St. Catherine of Alexandria, and St. Michael. St. Teresa of Avila saw a lot of saints, IIRC. St. John often was seen along with Mary back in the olden days. Blessed Alan de la Roche famously had a vision within a vision of Mary showing him a vision of St. Dominic having a vision of receiving the Rosary from her. People have lots of visions and signs of St. Therese hanging out. Lots of Irish people have had visions and apparitions of St. Patrick and other Irish saints. Many people have visions of their guardian angels or of other angels; Fatima started with an angelic apparition, for example. The apparitions at Knock included both St. John and St. Joseph as well as Mary. And so on…There’s tons of this stuff out there.

And of course people have visions of God in all sorts of forms and formats, too.

It’s not just Marian apparitions, by a long shot. Mary’s just very popular and gets a lot of press.

 

[TrueLight]

.

St. Michael the Archangel used to be extremely common for visions back in the day, especially when people used to ask his intercession more for a happy death.

This is interesting. Why are they asking for his intercession less?

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Also, do non-catholics ever see Mary?

This link is to the fascinating story of an anti-Catholic Nazarene preacher, Doug Gonzales, who had an experience of Mary and eventually became a Catholic. It’s the Journey Home program on EWTN 1-2-2006. This link takes you to page 10 as of now. Look for program #273. The numbers and the page numbers change as programs are added, but the date, of course, does not.

ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?pgnu=4&SeriesID=-6892289

Gonzales was interviewed again 1-30-2006 as part of a panel of three converts and revealed that his conversion cost him his wife, his kids, and his home. As I recall, he got the children back. You can find the program at the same link, program # 277 (until Monday)…

Jim Dandy

 

[BlsdBGd]

Why should we go through Mary to get to Christ? First, no human Gd has created, loves Mary more than her Divine Son, Jesus. Gd the Father created her conceived without sin - unlike any other human He has created. Mary is His blessed daughter. Mary’s Son, Jesus, chose her for his mother, chose to dwell IN her, the spotless one. No other woman is like her, nor will any other woman ever be like her. No human knows Jesus better than His mother. The Holy Spirit is her Spouse. So why go through Mary to get through Christ? Jesus gave Mary to all of humanity as our mother. Gd has commanded that we honour our Mother. Jesus honours His mother, Mary. So should we. Jesus loves His mother, Mary. So should we. Jesus listens to His mother when she intercedes on behalf of her earthly children. Those who ask for her intercession are wise. And for those who choose to ignore her or worse,for those who speak against Mary, belittle or hate her, I know Virgin’s love for them is unconditional/perfect. I have no doubt that she intercedes for them before Jesus, her Son. Father in heaven, thank you for creating the Blessed Virgin Mary, conceived without sin, and for placing her at the right hand of your Son, Jesus our Lord, as our intercessor and Mother most pure. Alleluia!

 

[Tyleben]

I don’t believe that Mary holds any special powers. God found favor with Mary, but the reason why is never explained. In the overall scheme of things, Mary was just a Jewish girl whom God decided to favor. This is a prime example of unconditional election. God had chosen Mary from before creation to be the mother of Jesus (Genesis 3:15). Mary didn’t think herself to be special. Mary also did not remain a virgin, as Jesus had half brothers and sisters (James being one of them).

 

[rinnie]

I don’t believe that Mary holds any special powers. God found favor with Mary, but the reason why is never explained. In the overall scheme of things, Mary was just a Jewish girl whom God decided to favor. This is a prime example of unconditional election. God had chosen Mary from before creation to be the mother of Jesus (Genesis 3:15). Mary didn’t think herself to be special. Mary also did not remain a virgin, as Jesus had half brothers and sisters (James being one of them).

She didn’t Then you my dear are going to have to get rid of alot of scripture.

Lets see she said ALL nations will call me Blessed. That to me means she felt she was pretty special to God.

Now Mary does not hold any special powers huh? SO do you feel that YOU have any special powers? Do you feel that when you pray Prayers work?

Or do you reject prayer. If you do, and feel your prays have no powers and do not pray, then okay. But if you DO believe prayers work. Why in Gods good world would you feel that God would listen to YOUR prayer and reject his Mothers?