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PJM
Guest
Steve;
HOW can this possibilt be true when:
Only The Catholic churchs and orthodox have it?
and Most protestats don’t believe or accept it:shrug:
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HOW can this possibilt be true when:
Only The Catholic churchs and orthodox have it?
and Most protestats don’t believe or accept it:shrug:
T
Tunesmith
Guest
They didn’t have Mass on Sunday. The word Mass is not in the New Testament. It’s not in their vocabulary at all.
1 Corinthians 14:27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; 28 but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. 30 But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent.
! Corinthians 14 is what happened when they gathered for worship. I never saw that at a Catholic Mass.
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Anna_Scott
Guest
I appreciate all the excellent replies everyone.
I do believe the Body of Christ and the Church are one and the same. What is confusing to me about Catholic doctrine is the idea that those of us not in Communion with Rome, who are Baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, become (according to Rome) part of the Body of Christ which is the same as the Church. Yet, somehow our status is relegated to something akin to one foot in the door of the Church and one foot out. It seems that one is either part of the Body of Christ or one is not.
If you consider us to be your “separated brethren”; does that mean you believe we are separated from Christ?
Indeed it is.
I agree.
Of course, you are referring to the beliefs of Catholics in Communion with Rome.
Are you saying that all outside this Communion are opposed to the Divine Will of our Lord? I think this would be difficult to support given what the Catholic Church has already said about “separated communities” and revealed truth.
PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR PROMOTING CHRISTIAN UNITY
". . . .On the other hand, the separated communities have on occasion better developed individual aspects of the revealed truth, so that the Catholic Church, under the circumstances of division, is unable to fully accomplish its intrinsic catholicity (UR, 4; UUS, 14). Therefore the church is in need of purification and renewal, and must constantly walk the path of penance (LG, 8; UR, 3 ff.,6 ff.;* UUS*, 34 ff., 83 ff.). . . .
. . . .From this eschatological and spiritual perspective the goal of ecumenism cannot be described simply as “the others’ returning to the fold of the Catholic Church. The goal of full unity can only be achieved through conversion, when all are impelled by the spirit of God to turn to the one head of the church, Christ Jesus. To the degree that we are one with Christ we will all be one with one another and thus realise the intrinsic catholicity of the church in its concrete fullness. Theologically the Council defined this goal as communio unity. . . . ."
The topic and issue at hand is the Body of Christ and the Church, which I think all would agree are one and the same.
The CCC speaks of the characteristics of the “People of God,” while pointing out that “God is not the property of any one people.” One becomes part of the People of God by faith in Christ, and Baptism. So, even those you consider “separated brethren” are part of the People of God/Body of Christ/the Church.
CCC
782 The People of God is marked by characteristics that clearly distinguish it from all other religious, ethnic, political, or cultural groups found in history:
- It is the People of God: God is not the property of any one people. But he acquired a people for himself from those who previously were not a people: "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation."202
**- This People has for its Head Jesus the Christ (the anointed, the Messiah). Because the same anointing, the Holy Spirit, flows from the head into the body, this is “the messianic people.” **
- “The *status *of this people is that of the dignity and freedom of the sons of God, in whose hearts the Holy Spirit dwells as in a temple.”
- "Its *law *is the new commandment to love as Christ loved us."204 This is the “new” law of the Holy Spirit.205
- Its *mission *is to be salt of the earth and light of the world.206 This people is “a most sure seed of unity, hope, and salvation for the whole human race.”
- Its destiny, finally, "is the Kingdom of God which has been begun by God himself on earth and which must be further extended until it has been brought to perfection by him at the end of time."207
I wholeheartedly agree. I think the PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR PROMOTING CHRISTIAN UNITY rightly stated, “The goal of full unity can only be achieved through conversion, when all are impelled by the spirit of God to turn to the one head of the church, Christ Jesus.”
I appreciate your comments.
Peace and blessings,
Anna
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Publisher
Guest
No…the Body of Christ IS the Church…the “Called out ones”…the Community of Christ"…the “People of God”…it is not an organization…but a People. The Body of Christ is not divided…it is not we who make the Church One…it is Christ through the work of the Holy Spirit that make us One in Him.
It is He and He alone who joins us with Him…and if we are joined in Him thru faith…we ARE ONE…no matter what a human organization claims.
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aidanbradypop
Guest
So what you are stating is the the Catholic Church is not the one true Church, but all believers in Christ make up the “church” or body of Christ?
P
Publisher
Guest
Yes…even Catholic teaching states that Protestants are “imperfecly” joined to the Catholic church thru their baptism…even if one is “imperfectly joined”…one is still "joined.
If I believed the Catholic church was the one church organization that was His Body…I’d be a member of it…but since I don’t I find myself joined with His Body by the work of His Holy Spirit…the need for others of His Body to accept me as a member isn’t nearly as important to me as my belief THEY are members of His Body…doesn’t matter what “they” think of me and behave toward me…it only matters that I embrace them as brothers and sisters in Christ.
I disagree with that premise simply because as a Friend, I have never undergone a 'ritual cleansing" of water, I am not a member of His Body… We are not joined to His Body by a ritual of iniation, but by His Holy Spirit joining us to Him…indwelling us…Baptizing us into His Body…since He only has One Body to belong to, with each of us as members…any who are joined to Christ by grace thru faith are members of this One Body…irrespective of the name of the tradition on the sign in front of their meetinghouse.
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Friend, if by “ritual of cleansing” you mean water baptism.
Jesus seems to disagree with you:
Mark 16:16
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Matthew 28:18-20
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”
P
Publisher
Guest
Friend, I understand your position…I simply do not agree with it.
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aidanbradypop
Guest
How do you not believe it when it is clearly written in Scripture? I do not have much information on Quackerism. Can you reject certain Scripture? Thanks
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Publisher
Guest
I don’t “reject” certain scripture…I understand it differently than you. “Baptize” does not always mean to “dip” or “dunk” in water.
“There is one coming after me that will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.” Matt 3:11
“You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?” Mark 10:38
In Hebrews chaper 9 deals with various Jewish rituals which were “prefigured”…"…gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshipper, but deal only with food and drink and various baptisms, regulations for the body imposed unti the tim comes to set things right…" Things were set right thru Christ not thru ritual cleansings or offerings of animal blood.
Your quote of Mark 16 is often not found in the older mauscripts…in most modern translations simply relegated as a footnote indicates dubious “authority” at best.
My understanding was Jesus is recorded to have said “go and teach…baptizing…immersing them in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.”
The first followers of Jesus were Jews…Acts displays they still practiced Jewish customs…even Paul had Timothy circumcised so he could enter the temple. Peter had a vision which changed his understanding of Jewish customs and beliefs…of which baptism of water was one custom…as no longer being in effect to make one “unclean”.
Baptism with water was one such practice that continued…but in light of the work of Christ in our lives and the cleansing power of the Holy Spirit, a “ritual washing” hardly seems necessary when the One Baptism that truly cleanses has been experienced.
It is not Catholic belief…and I don’t expect you to embrace the Quaker understanding…my understanding impacts your salvation in no way…just as your beliefs impact mine.
Oh…just a side note…I sincerly hope your use of “Quackerism” was a typo, and not meant to be an insult one could “backpeddle” away from if called on.
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Tunesmith
Guest
Every church and denomination rejects certain scripture.
P
Publisher
Guest
No friend, that is not true…they simply reject your understanding of “certain scriptures”.
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aidanbradypop
Guest
Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I have no clue what Quakers believe, so its nice to hear about it.Oh…just a side note…I sincerly hope your use of “Quackerism” was a typo, and not meant to be an insult one could “backpeddle” away from if called on.
side note: How on earth is Quackerism viewed as an insult?
It was totally a typo lol sorry about that 
P
Publisher
Guest
I don’t know too many people who enjoy being called a “quack” when discussing spiritual issues…and it is very good to know it was simply a typo. I am feeling a bit under the weather today…so perhaps I’m overly sensitive.Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I have no clue what Quakers believe, so its nice to hear about it.
side note: How on earth is Quackerism viewed as an insult?
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
In all honesty, I don’t think I have a position other than to obey what the Lord commands.
As such, my position is one of obedience and not one of agreement.
May the Lord lift your spirit from “under the weather”
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Anna_Scott
Guest
Steve,
Are you saying that those who do not have a “valid Eucharist,” in the eyes of the Catholic Church, are not part of the one Body of Christ?
Anna
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aidanbradypop
Guest
CCC 838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324
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Anna_Scott
Guest
Irish,
I’m very familiar with CCC838.
I was asking Steve for a clarification regarding his statement, " we are not one body with those who do not have a valid Eucharist."
Anna
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aidanbradypop
Guest
Irish,
I’m very familiar with CCC838.
I was asking Steve for a clarification regarding his statement, " we are not one body with those who do not have a valid Eucharist."
Anna
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