The book of Mormon challenge, pray and something happens to confirm

[Horton]

1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore, I tell you that nobody speaking by the spirit of God says, “Jesus be accursed.” And no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the holy Spirit.

This verse clearly states that the only way to be certain of the divinity of Jesus Christ is to somehow have that knowledge given to you by the Holy Spirit. IMHO this verse does not allow for other methods of conferring this certain knowledge. So, LDS believe that the Holy Spirit confirms to someone the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon the same way He confirms to someone the divinity of Jesus Christ. However you personally have experienced 1 Corinthians 12:3 in your life is how LDS believe God communicates the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. I hope this helps…

Unity and Variety.
1 Now in regard to spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware. 2 You know how, when you were pagans, you were constantly attracted and led away to mute idols. 3
Therefore, I tell you that nobody speaking by the spirit of God says, “Jesus be accursed.” And no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the holy Spirit. 4 There are different kinds of spiritual gifts but the same Spirit; 5 there are different forms of service but the same Lord; 6 there are different workings but the same God who produces all of them in everyone.

Once again you have to take the single verse in context. St. Paul was talking to a group of former pagans, explaining how charisms, or gifts, come to believers, through the Holy Spirit.

Ecstatic and charismatic activity were common in early Christian experience, as they were in other ancient religions. But the Corinthians seem to have developed a disproportionate esteem for certain phenomena, especially tongues, to the detriment of order in the liturgy. Paul’s response to this development provides us with the fullest exposition we have of his theology of the charisms.

 

[pnewton]

1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore, I tell you that nobody speaking by the spirit of God says, “Jesus be accursed.” And no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the holy Spirit.

This verse clearly states that the only way to be certain of the divinity of Jesus Christ is to somehow have that knowledge given to you by the Holy Spirit. IMHO this verse does not allow for other methods of conferring this certain knowledge. So, LDS believe that the Holy Spirit confirms to someone the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon the same way He confirms to someone the divinity of Jesus Christ.

“The Spirit” is the Holy Spirit, that is, God. For the Joseph Smith method to equate to the Pauline method, feelings would have to equal God. We know everything we know, every creed, every confession, by what has been revealed by God. Feelings do not enter into what Paul was saying in the least. The Holy Spirit is almighty God. He is not a burning in the bosom.

 

[gazelam]

“The Spirit” is the Holy Spirit, that is, God. For the Joseph Smith method to equate to the Pauline method, feelings would have to equal God. We know everything we know, every creed, every confession, by what has been revealed by God. Feelings do not enter into what Paul was saying in the least. The Holy Spirit is almighty God. He is not a burning in the bosom.

30,000 posts? Is that the CAF record?!?! :tiphat:

Just curious, what do you believe “the Joseph Smith method” to be?

We LDS contributers here are specifically refraining from providing the details of our own experiences because we don’t want to get sent to the CAF penalty box!!

Anyway the only point I was making in quoting 1 Corinthians 12:3 is that Holy Spirit reveals to us the divinity of Jesus Christ. Answering the question of how Mormons come to know the Book of Mormon is true, it’s the same way anyone comes to know Jesus is Lord.

CCC 683 "No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except by the Holy Spirit." “God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!”’ This knowledge of faith is possible only in the Holy Spirit: to be in touch with Christ, we must first have been touched by the Holy Spirit. He comes to meet us and kindles faith in us. By virtue of our Baptism, the first sacrament of the faith, the Holy Spirit in the Church communicates to us, intimately and personally, the life that originates in the Father and is offered to us in the Son.

I’m not Catholic and may be interpreting this Catechism entry incorrectly, but it seems to say there in a role for the Holy Spirit for each individual believer. It uses words such as “into our hearts”, and “touched by the Holy Spirit”. It would seem odd for a Catholic to proclaim that she was touch by the Holy Spirit as It came into her heart, but no feeling were involved when that happened. That my $0.02 worth…

 

[sallybutler]

30,000 posts? Is that the CAF record?!?! :tiphat:

Just curious, what do you believe “the Joseph Smith method” to be?

We LDS contributers here are specifically refraining from providing the details of our own experiences because we don’t want to get sent to the CAF penalty box!!

Anyway the only point I was making in quoting 1 Corinthians 12:3 is that Holy Spirit reveals to us the divinity of Jesus Christ. Answering the question of how Mormons come to know the Book of Mormon is true, it’s the same way anyone comes to know Jesus is Lord.

CCC 683 “No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except by the Holy Spirit." "God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!”’ This knowledge of faith is possible only in the Holy Spirit: to be in touch with Christ, we must first have been touched by the Holy Spirit. He comes to meet us and kindles faith in us. By virtue of our Baptism, the first sacrament of the faith, the Holy Spirit in the Church communicates to us, intimately and personally, the life that originates in the Father and is offered to us in the Son.

I’m not Catholic and may be interpreting this Catechism entry incorrectly, but it seems to say there in a role for the Holy Spirit for each individual believer. It uses words such as “into our hearts”, and “touched by the Holy Spirit”. It would seem odd for a Catholic to proclaim that she was touch by the Holy Spirit as It came into her heart, but no feeling were involved when that happened. That my $0.02 worth…

Feelings are temporary.

 

[Horton]

30,000 posts? Is that the CAF record?!?! :tiphat:

Just curious, what do you believe “the Joseph Smith method” to be?

We LDS contributers here are specifically refraining from providing the details of our own experiences because we don’t want to get sent to the CAF penalty box!!

Anyway the only point I was making in quoting 1 Corinthians 12:3 is that Holy Spirit reveals to us the divinity of Jesus Christ. Answering the question of how Mormons come to ****know the Book of Mormon is true, it’s the same way anyone comes to know Jesus is Lord.

---

Bolding mine. It’s not the same thing at all. We come to know Jesus is the Lord through logic and reason. Are there feelings with it, sure but the feelings waver & change over time. It’s the logic & reason that remain. Yes it feels good to follow Christ, to be a Christian, and sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes it’s hard to be Christian, we get in a foul mood, experience a painful event, or just get frustrated, all feelings, but we know through logic & reason that Christ is our savior.

CCC 683 “No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except by the Holy Spirit." "God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!”’ This knowledge of faith is possible only in the Holy Spirit: to be in touch with Christ, we must first have been touched by the Holy Spirit. He comes to meet us and kindles faith in us. By virtue of our Baptism, the first sacrament of the faith, the Holy Spirit in the Church communicates to us, intimately and personally, the life that originates in the Father and is offered to us in the Son.

I’m not Catholic and may be interpreting this Catechism entry incorrectly, but it seems to say there in a role for the Holy Spirit for each individual believer. It uses words such as “into our hearts”, and “touched by the Holy Spirit”. It would seem odd for a Catholic to proclaim that she was touch by the Holy Spirit as It came into her heart, but no feeling were involved when that happened. That my $0.02 worth…

The role of the Holy Spirit in our lives is to guide our journey of faith. We allow the Holy Spirit to work within us to do God’s will. By letting the Holy Spirit into our hearts, and remember for Christians the Holy Spirit is God, by letting the Holy Spirit touch us, we are allowing God to work through us. Unlike the LDS this is not a one time event, it is ongoing and evolving, it’s a journey.

I know for me there are days when I don’t let the Holy Spirit in, generally end up having a really bad day, but God allows us the free will to choose and gives us infinite second chances to choose again when we choose wrong. When I let God, the Holy Spirit, in things tend to turn out better.

 

[pnewton]

30,000 posts? Is that the CAF record?!?! :tiphat:

Just curious, what do you believe “the Joseph Smith method” to be?

“The Lord will cause the feeling of security and truth to take hold of the individual and burn within the bosom, and there will be an overwhelming feeling that the thing is right.” Yes, it is a lot of posts, but I have been posting a long, long time.

It would seem odd for a Catholic to proclaim that she was touch by the Holy Spirit as It came into her heart, but no feeling were involved when that happened. That my $0.02 worth.

I guess you can say feelings aren’t our thing. Some of our greatest saints have had the greatest “feeling” of spiritual dryness. In fact, I would say faith is inversely proportional to feelings, as it is to witnessing a miracle. Yes, they may seem like the two go hand in hand, but the greater grace of faith comes in absence of seeing and feeling. Also, such faith remains stalwart in the absence of these feelings when they go away, as they always do, and when we go through suffering, again as we always do.

 

[Horton]

“The Lord will cause the feeling of security and truth to take hold of the individual and burn within the bosom, and there will be an overwhelming feeling that the thing is right.” Yes, it is a lot of posts, but I have been posting a long, long time.
I guess you can say feelings aren’t our thing. Some of our greatest saints have had the greatest “feeling” of spiritual dryness. In fact, I would say faith is inversely proportional to feelings, as it is to witnessing a miracle. Yes, they may seem like the two go hand in hand, but the greater grace of faith comes in absence of seeing and feeling. Also, such faith remains stalwart in the absence of these feelings when they go away, as they always do, and when we go through suffering, again as we always do.

Bolding mine - This is beautifully said.

 

[Gertabelle]

Some of our greatest saints have had the greatest “feeling” of spiritual dryness. In fact, I would say faith is inversely proportional to feelings, as it is to witnessing a miracle. Yes, they may seem like the two go hand in hand, but the greater grace of faith comes in absence of seeing and feeling. Also, such faith remains stalwart in the absence of these feelings when they go away, as they always do, and when we go through suffering, again as we always do.

Yup. Well said.

 

[gazelam]

“The Lord will cause the feeling of security and truth to take hold of the individual and burn within the bosom, and there will be an overwhelming feeling that the thing is right.” Yes, it is a lot of posts, but I have been posting a long, long time.
I guess you can say feelings aren’t our thing. Some of our greatest saints have had the greatest “feeling” of spiritual dryness. In fact, I would say faith is inversely proportional to feelings, as it is to witnessing a miracle. Yes, they may seem like the two go hand in hand, but the greater grace of faith comes in absence of seeing and feeling. Also, such faith remains stalwart in the absence of these feelings when they go away, as they always do, and when we go through suffering, again as we always do.

I hope that those who remained faithful to the best of their ability in spite of the spiritual dryness receive Eternal Life.

An LDS member in my congregation several years ago told of a time when he and a Catholic colleague who were working for the military were invited to attend a convention in Las Vegas. Both felt that something was amiss and decided not to go. The convention ended up being where the infamous “Tailhook” scandal took place. All who attended were lumped in with the guilty.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailhook_scandal

The LDS member inferred that both he and the Catholic colleague had a premonition that it would just be unwise to attend. That premonition coming in spite of there being no apparent danger on the surface. That’s just one example of how the LDS see the Holy Spirit working in their life and that other non-LDS will also be influenced positively by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Marie5890]

Some of our greatest saints have had the greatest “feeling” of spiritual dryness. In fact, I would say faith is inversely proportional to feelings, as it is to witnessing a miracle. Yes, they may seem like the two go hand in hand, but the greater grace of faith comes in absence of seeing and feeling. Also, such faith remains stalwart in the absence of these feelings when they go away, as they always do, and when we go through suffering, again as we always do.

LOVE this!.
I have been reading many of the writing of the saints, and you are spot on. The bolding especially. Their witness to this and to the sanctification thru suffering leaves me in awe, to the point it’s humbling to read of their steadfastness.

 

[Horton]

I hope that those who remained faithful to the best of their ability in spite of the spiritual dryness receive Eternal Life.

An LDS member in my congregation several years ago told of a time when he and a Catholic colleague who were working for the military were invited to attend a convention in Las Vegas. Both felt that something was amiss and decided not to go. The convention ended up being where the infamous “Tailhook” scandal took place. All who attended were lumped in with the guilty.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailhook_scandal

The LDS member inferred that both he and the Catholic colleague had a premonition that it would just be unwise to attend. That premonition coming in spite of there being no apparent danger on the surface. That’s just one example of how the LDS see the Holy Spirit working in their life and that other non-LDS will also be influenced positively by the Holy Spirit.

Bolding mine. Those who experience spiritual dryness are no less Catholic than those who don’t. Most if not all Catholics go through this at times. We feel as though we are very far away from God. For most of us this passes, for some it comes & goes, for others it stays for a very long time. This is where faith comes in. While one may “feel” far away from God, one KNOWS they are not. Blessed Teresa of Calcutta suffered spiritual dryness during much of her ministry and yet she accomplished heroic things for God, never wavering in her faith in God.

I’m a bit confused by the wording of your last sentence. I understand it to mean the non-LDS was influenced positively because the LDS guy was. For Catholic, in fact most Christians, the Holy Spirit is an integral part of our faith. The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity. See my post up-thread regarding how we view the Holy Spirit.

 

[gazelam]

“The Lord will cause the feeling of security and truth to take hold of the individual and burn within the bosom, and there will be an overwhelming feeling that the thing is right.” Yes, it is a lot of posts, but I have been posting a long, long time.
I guess you can say feelings aren’t our thing. Some of our greatest saints have had the greatest “feeling” of spiritual dryness. In fact, I would say faith is inversely proportional to feelings, as it is to witnessing a miracle. Yes, they may seem like the two go hand in hand, but the greater grace of faith comes in absence of seeing and feeling. Also, such faith remains stalwart in the absence of these feelings when they go away, as they always do, and when we go through suffering, again as we always do.

So I’m now struck by this notion of “spiritual dryness”. And again, I’m grateful for those who persevere to the best of their ability in the absence of spiritual manifestations/direction.

But how does that square with 1 Corinthians 12:7-11?

*7. To each individual the manifestation of the Spirit is given for some benefit.

1. To one is given through the Spirit the expression of wisdom; to another the expression of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
2. to another faith by the same Spirit; to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit;
3. to another mighty deeds; to another prophecy; to another discernment of spirits; to another varieties of tongues; to another interpretation of tongues.
4. But one and the same Spirit produces all of these, distributing them individually to each person as he wishes.*

It seems to me if there is spiritual dryness something is amiss in an individual’s relationship with God, and the problem is not on God’s end.

(Cue Horton once again insisting that I’ve taken these verses out of context… )

 

[pnewton]

7. To each individual the manifestation of the Spirit is given for some benefit.
)I do not understand what our gifts have to do with what we feel. The benefit described here (and I only refer to this context) is the benefit of the universal Church body. There is nothing about whatever gift the Holy Spirit gives us that in anyway implies or necessitates an emotional content. In fact, by their very nature, some gifts are quite unemotional. Also, the list does not claim to be either universal, or perpetual. Paul is simply outlining how we need to each use our gifts to work together, understand that God gave us our talents, and admonish us not to think some are better than others.

Remember, this is a letter he wrote to address the in-fighting and bickering going on in that community.

 

[gazelam]

LDS believe that the Holy Spirit is manifest to sincere individuals in several ways. To lump all of these different manifestations together as just “feelings” is an attempt to categorize these experiences in a manner easily dismissed.

An earnest individual could receive a witness of the divinity of Christ and of the Book of Mormon in any number of ways. Some have to do with feeling, and others with intellect. Here are some of the ways LDS believe that the Holy Spirit manifests Himself to individuals:

comforts us, teaches us, and reminds us (John 14:26, D&C 42:17, D&C 39:6)
guides us to truth and shows us things to come (John 16:13)
testifies of Christ (John 15:26, 1 Corinthians 12:3, 3 Nephi 28:11, D&C 20:27, D&C 42:17)
speaks truth to our heart and our mind (D&C 8:2)
enlightens the mind and fill the soul with joy (D&C 11:13)
unfolds to us the mysteries of God (1 Nephi 10:19)
carries the word of God into the hearts of those we teach (2 Nephi 33:1)
sanctifies us (3 Nephi 27:20)
causes your heart to “burn” (Luke 24:32)
communicates to us as a “still small voice” (1 Kings 19:12)
pure intelligence flowing into you

(Joseph Smith said "A person may profit by noticing the first intimation of the spirit of revelation; for instance, when you feel pure intelligence flowing into you, it may give you sudden strokes of ideas, so that by noticing it, you may find it fulfilled the same day or soon; (i.e.) those things that were presented unto your minds by the Spirit of God, will come to pass; and thus by learning the Spirit of God and understanding it, you may grow into the principle of revelation, until you become perfect in Christ Jesus. (History of the Church, 3:381)

President Spencer W. Kimball taught that the Holy Ghost “comes a little at a time as you merit it. And as your life is in harmony, you gradually receive the Holy Ghost in a great measure” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball [1982], 114).

Joseph Smith told Brigham Young "Tell the people to be humble and faithful and [be] sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord and it will lead them right. Be careful and not turn away the small still voice; it will teach [you what] to do and where to go; it will yield the fruits of the kingdom. Tell the brethren to keep their hearts open to conviction so that when the Holy Ghost comes to them, their hearts will be ready to receive it. They can tell the Spirit of the Lord from all other spirits. It will whisper peace and joy to their souls, and it will take malice, hatred, envying, strife, and all evil from their hearts; and their whole desire will be to do good, bring forth righteousness, and build up the kingdom of God. Tell the brethren if they will follow the Spirit of the Lord they will go right” (Teachings: Joseph Smith, 98).

And I haven’t even gone through the list of spiritual gifts found in scripture. It’s important to remember that these experiences are sacred and should only be shared at appropriate times. I hope this helps…

 

[Horton]

So I’m now struck by this notion of “spiritual dryness”. And again, I’m grateful for those who persevere to the best of their ability in the absence of spiritual manifestations/direction.

But how does that square with 1 Corinthians 12:7-11?

7. To each individual the manifestation of the Spirit is given for some benefit.

1. To one is given through the Spirit the expression of wisdom; to another the expression of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
2. to another faith by the same Spirit; to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit;
3. to another mighty deeds; to another prophecy; to another discernment of spirits; to another varieties of tongues; to another interpretation of tongues.
4. But one and the same Spirit produces all of these, distributing them individually to each person as he wishes.

It seems to me if there is spiritual dryness something is amiss in an individual’s relationship with God, and the problem is not on God’s end.

(Cue Horton once again insisting that I’ve taken these verses out of context… )

Actually you didn’t take this out of context at all. We are all given gifts, talents God wants us to use to fulfill His will. We don’t always have a choice in these gifts except whether to use them for good or not.

None of this has anything to do with spiritual dryness. We can follow God, use our gift(s) for the glory of God and still experience the what we often call “the desert”. You’re right, it’s not a God problem but a personal one. I don’t know why we suffer the desert at times, I guess we’re not supposed to know. But I do know that when we come in from the desert we are closer to God than before. For many, even in this spiritual dryness, or the desert, faith is not lost, nor do we stop practicing our faith.

This is why we don’t place a great deal of importance on how our faith makes us “feel”. We focus more on what our faith does in our lives, how it influences our behavior, how our behavior gives glory to God.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Would most people consider the words above as a “challenge”?
If so, then I guess one could consider “ask and ye shall receive” as a challenge, too.

.

So you have never had two young guys wearing skinny ties at your door, challenging you to read the BOM and pray about it?

 

[Horton]

LDS believe that the Holy Spirit is manifest to sincere individuals in several ways. To lump all of these different manifestations together as just “feelings” is an attempt to categorize these experiences in a manner easily dismissed.

An earnest individual could receive a witness of the divinity of Christ and of the Book of Mormon in any number of ways. Some have to do with feeling, and others with intellect. Here are some of the ways LDS believe that the Holy Spirit manifests Himself to individuals:

comforts us, teaches us, and reminds us (John 14:26, D&C 42:17, D&C 39:6)
guides us to truth and shows us things to come (John 16:13)
testifies of Christ (John 15:26, 1 Corinthians 12:3, 3 Nephi 28:11, D&C 20:27, D&C 42:17)
speaks truth to our heart and our mind (D&C 8:2)
enlightens the mind and fill the soul with joy (D&C 11:13)
unfolds to us the mysteries of God (1 Nephi 10:19)
carries the word of God into the hearts of those we teach (2 Nephi 33:1)
sanctifies us (3 Nephi 27:20)
causes your heart to “burn” (Luke 24:32)
communicates to us as a “still small voice” (1 Kings 19:12)
pure intelligence flowing into you

(Joseph Smith said "A person may profit by noticing the first intimation of the spirit of revelation; for instance, when you feel pure intelligence flowing into you, it may give you sudden strokes of ideas, so that by noticing it, you may find it fulfilled the same day or soon; (i.e.) those things that were presented unto your minds by the Spirit of God, will come to pass; and thus by learning the Spirit of God and understanding it, you may grow into the principle of revelation, until you become perfect in Christ Jesus. (History of the Church, 3:381)

President Spencer W. Kimball taught that the Holy Ghost “comes a little at a time as you merit it. And as your life is in harmony, you gradually receive the Holy Ghost in a great measure” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball [1982], 114).

Joseph Smith told Brigham Young "Tell the people to be humble and faithful and [be] sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord and it will lead them right. Be careful and not turn away the small still voice; it will teach [you what] to do and where to go; it will yield the fruits of the kingdom. Tell the brethren to keep their hearts open to conviction so that when the Holy Ghost comes to them, their hearts will be ready to receive it. They can tell the Spirit of the Lord from all other spirits. It will whisper peace and joy to their souls, and it will take malice, hatred, envying, strife, and all evil from their hearts; and their whole desire will be to do good, bring forth righteousness, and build up the kingdom of God. Tell the brethren if they will follow the Spirit of the Lord they will go right” (Teachings: Joseph Smith, 98).

And I haven’t even gone through the list of spiritual gifts found in scripture. It’s important to remember that these experiences are sacred and should only be shared at appropriate times. I hope this helps…

Bolding mine - This is a different thought process from most of Christianity and certainty Catholicism. There is nothing we can do to “merit” God’s grace or gifts of the Holy Spirit. We can’t work our way to heaven. We accept God’s will for our lives and then use the gifts & graces to glorify Him. God is there, loving us, and the only action on our part is to accept His love. By accepting His love, because we accept His love, we are inclined to do good works to glorify Him.

I was able to retire relatively young, in my early 50’s. So I volunteer. The Holy Spirit has given me gifts I can use in my volunteer work, so I do. I don’t do this because it’s fun, I do it because it what I’m called to do and this work glorifies God. See it’s not about me, it’s never been about me, it’s about God and what He wants me to do for him. There have been times when I’ve been in the desert doing this work, but I have faith and kept doing the work, trusting I would come in from the desert. God is faithful and patient and I am a better person, a better Catholic for my time in the desert. It’s possible it will happen again, I hope not, but it will not change my faith.

Hopefully this clarifies the concept for you.

 

[RebeccaJ]

So I’m now struck by this notion of “spiritual dryness”. And again, I’m grateful for those who persevere to the best of their ability in the absence of spiritual manifestations/direction.

But how does that square with 1 Corinthians 12:7-11?

7. To each individual the manifestation of the Spirit is given for some benefit.

1. To one is given through the Spirit the expression of wisdom; to another the expression of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
2. to another faith by the same Spirit; to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit;
3. to another mighty deeds; to another prophecy; to another discernment of spirits; to another varieties of tongues; to another interpretation of tongues.
4. But one and the same Spirit produces all of these, distributing them individually to each person as he wishes.

It seems to me if there is spiritual dryness something is amiss in an individual’s relationship with God, and the problem is not on God’s end.

(Cue Horton once again insisting that I’ve taken these verses out of context… )

The Truth of God’s Love manifest in Christ crucified and raised from the dead, does not change based on how we feel. We may feel many things, in many ways over our lives, but these feelings do not change the Good News. Spiritual highs do not make Truth more true and spiritual lows do not make Truth less true.

Indeed the Spirit is given to us. Feelings may and can play a role but Catholics do not rely on feelings alone, in discerning God’s actions and gifts in our lives. We don’t chase after spiritual highs, but when God does give to us gifts, we recognize them as signs of His Love. The Son being the greatest Gift of all.

 

[gazelam]

Bolding mine - This is a different thought process from most of Christianity and certainty Catholicism. There is nothing we can do to “merit” God’s grace or gifts of the Holy Spirit. We can’t work our way to heaven. We accept God’s will for our lives and then use the gifts & graces to glorify Him. God is there, loving us, and the only action on our part is to accept His love. By accepting His love, because we accept His love, we are inclined to do good works to glorify Him.

President Kimball is not using the word “merit” to indicate that the the companionship of the Holy Spirit is earned, if that’s what you’re getting at. In LDS theology the companionship of the Holy Spirit is a gift. But he is saying that one’s need to comport according to God’s will in order to avail oneself of this wonderful gift.

CCC 2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

Per the CCC there seems to be some meriting in Catholic theology. Could not one say in Catholic theology that one merits Heaven by resolving all mortal sins prior to dying? And would it not be assumed still that Eternal Life is a gift?

I was able to retire relatively young, in my early 50’s. So I volunteer. The Holy Spirit has given me gifts I can use in my volunteer work, so I do. I don’t do this because it’s fun, I do it because it what I’m called to do and this work glorifies God. See it’s not about me, it’s never been about me, it’s about God and what He wants me to do for him. There have been times when I’ve been in the desert doing this work, but I have faith and kept doing the work, trusting I would come in from the desert. God is faithful and patient and I am a better person, a better Catholic for my time in the desert. It’s possible it will happen again, I hope not, but it will not change my faith.

Hopefully this clarifies the concept for you.

God bless you for your service to others. Your efforts remind me of Acts 10:38.

 

[Chris-WA]

The challenge is a psychological ploy. Our emotions vary based on so many factors, some physiological. If they can convince someone to take that challenge, and for any reason, chemical, circadian, literary, etc., the reader is feeling good, then they can convince themselves this is the bosom burn. More to the point, he all have the tendency to affirm our choices. This is why salesmen like to get the customer to say “yes” to any question. Once you get the guy rolling your way in some little way, he will help you by affirming to himself that he is doing the right thing.

This is why fuzzy feelings are a sucker’s method of determining truth.

This is exactly correct–it is a psychological ploy. Notice that LDS never apply the same test to the bible by the way. You never hear a Mormon say, “I know the bible is true.” Only the BoM. It is a self-affirming psychological trick, but they don’t realize it because they have been taught this all of their lives so they never question it. And if somebody does not get the burning in the bosom, guess what----the problem is with them. Either they weren’t sincere enough or didn’t pray hard enough or whatever.