The book of Mormon challenge, pray and something happens to confirm

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President Kimball is not using the word “merit” to indicate that the the companionship of the Holy Spirit is earned, if that’s what you’re getting at. In LDS theology the companionship of the Holy Spirit is a gift. But he is saying that one’s need to comport according to God’s will in order to avail oneself of this wonderful gift.

CCC 2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

Per the CCC there seems to be some meriting in Catholic theology. Could not one say in Catholic theology that one merits Heaven by resolving all mortal sins prior to dying? And would it not be assumed still that Eternal Life is a gift?

God bless you for your service to others. Your efforts remind me of Acts 10:38.
God will meet us where we are. Kind of like leveling the playing field. The most pious person who attends daily Mass, does an hour of adoration weekly, is in parish ministries, and gives generously to the Church has the same opportunity for grace as the person who shows up to Mass Sunday morning, throws their envelope in the collection basket, goes to confession only once a year because they have to. Grace isn’t something to be collected and saved as a way to get to heaven. Grace is a gift of the Holy Spirit that helps us to accomplish something, to get a certain task done, to forgive someone, to come closer to God, to get through a difficult time.

Yes we must confess all mortal sins. There is the fear of hell for unconfessed mortal sins. But it isn’t used as a means to “earn” heaven. We believe it is faith & works that get us to heaven. Again not a checklist of certain works, there is no race to win, it’s not a competition among the faithful. God meets us where we are and gives us the grace to do what works we’re capable of. In my example above, both individuals have equal opportunity to go to heaven.
 
Would most people consider the words above as a “challenge”?
If so, then I guess one could consider “ask and ye shall receive” as a challenge, too.
No, as I understand it, “ask *with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ *and ye shall receive” would be the challenge. If you don’t receive, it is your fault.
 
Mormons have told me that if you read the BOM and pray about it, then God will reveal to you that it is true.

Any Mormons care to share their personal experience after taking this challenge? Like what exactly happen to confirm it’s truth?

Thanks
Hello to all:

I would like to hear a personal experience. I’ve seen a few attempts to justify these verses, but no LDS member seems willing to share how their experience actually unfolded.

From my Catholic perspective it seems that one would have to disconnect from reason to accept what the BOM offers, because of the inconsistencies that have been discussed on other threads. (I mean no disrespect to any LDS members. From the LDS perspective I’m sure I appear similarly unenlightened.)

My questions to any willing to share would be:

(1) In the experience of the LDS believer, is there a moment where you simply believe that the BOM is true despite what reason suggests to you; OR
(2) From your personal perspective, is there a harmonizing of reason and the BOM?

If neither of the above is correct, is the experience something completely different?

Please share 🙂

Peace,
Robert
 
(1) In the experience of the LDS believer, is there a moment where you simply believe that the BOM is true despite what reason suggests to you; OR
(2) From your personal perspective, is there a harmonizing of reason and the BOM?
You’re asking about reason, which is a more general category than empirical scientific evidence that the OP was about.

For me, empirical scientific evidence is VERY limited in what it can provide in regards to spiritual questions, and is therefore not a useful epistemological tool in this case (as I expressed in earlier this thread). I respect that other people hold different views.

In regards to reason in general, I do find the BoM to be intrinsically in harmony with logic and reason.
 
Hello to all:

I would like to hear a personal experience. I’ve seen a few attempts to justify these verses, but no LDS member seems willing to share how their experience actually unfolded.

From my Catholic perspective it seems that one would have to disconnect from reason to accept what the BOM offers, because of the inconsistencies that have been discussed on other threads. (I mean no disrespect to any LDS members. From the LDS perspective I’m sure I appear similarly unenlightened.)

My questions to any willing to share would be:

(1) In the experience of the LDS believer, is there a moment where you simply believe that the BOM is true despite what reason suggests to you; OR
(2) From your personal perspective, is there a harmonizing of reason and the BOM?

If neither of the above is correct, is the experience something completely different?

Please share 🙂

Peace,
Robert
Hello Robert,
Code:
I no longer believe in the historicity of the BOM, but for a long time I did.

To your 1st question this was before the internet age and my abilities at critical thinking were pretty much nil therefore I didn't have access to all of the reason people do now.  I left the LDS church because of the BOM's comments with regards to priestcraft, and it's definition of what the gospel is and joined a group who viewed JS as a fallen prophet.
The harmonizing reason would be the witnesses. I finally decided against the historicity of the BOM in the last couple years when I discovered there was no original signed statement from witnesses.
The importance in believing in the historicity of the BOM is an LDS thing. The more important question is is there something in there that has a value to you. For me I was reading it at the time when I was becoming involved in the world of religion. Since the BOM is about the world of religion it had a value to me and I'm glad I had it as a guide.
 
You’re asking about reason, which is a more general category than empirical scientific evidence that the OP was about.
For me, empirical scientific evidence is VERY limited in what it can provide in regards to spiritual questions, and is therefore not a useful epistemological tool in this case (as I expressed in earlier this thread). I respect that other people hold different views.
In regards to reason in general, I do find the BoM to be intrinsically in harmony with logic and reason.
You claim the Book of Mormon is in harmony with logic and reason, yet conflicts with empirical science. If the Book of Mormon is real history, this claim is irrational. If something conflicts with empirical science, it cannot be in harmony with logic and reason.

Forty years ago, the truth of the Book of Mormon was the belief that is was historically true. You seem to be claiming that the truth of the Book of Mormon is now based on a spiritual belief as if the Mormon Church has rejected the claim that it is historically true.

What does a Mormon mean when they say the “Book of Mormon is true?”
 
You’re asking about reason, which is a more general category than empirical scientific evidence that the OP was about.
I’m not sure I follow. Are you saying that the BOM is “reasonable” despite a lack of evidence supporting certain factual assumptions in the BOM narrative, (e.g. horses, iron, wheeled chariots, relationship between Hebrew and Native American persons, etc.) If so, do you think the narrative is more along the lines of a religious myth, intended by the author to convey deeper moral and theological truths? Or do you believe that the narrative describes an actual history of what really happened somewhere in the Western Hemisphere? If the latter, how do you square that with the current historical record?
jane doe:
For me, empirical scientific evidence is VERY limited in what it can provide in regards to spiritual questions, and is therefore not a useful epistemological tool in this case (as I expressed in earlier this thread). I respect that other people hold different views.
I concur that science is not a proper tool for determining certain theological truths. Philosophy is more suited to such considerations. But my question really is how you square the narrative within the BOM with the lack of evidence, and even contrary evidence that disproves a lot of what the BOM seems to assume as factually true. Do you simply accept the BOM’s fact claims as true despite what reason, and the historical record suggests? Or do you square the BOM with what reason tells you by ascribing a less literal interpretation to the story.
jane doe:
In regards to reason in general, I do find the BoM to be intrinsically in harmony with logic and reason.
Is that because you see the story in the BOM as more allegorical than historical, or do you believe that it is true despite the current historical record which seems to disprove much of what the BOM claims happened in the western hemisphere.

Peace,
Robert
 
You’re asking about reason, which is a more general category than empirical scientific evidence that the OP was about.

For me, empirical scientific evidence is VERY limited in what it can provide in regards to spiritual questions, and is therefore not a useful epistemological tool in this case (as I expressed in earlier this thread). I respect that other people hold different views.

In regards to reason in general, I do find the BoM to be intrinsically in harmony with logic and reason.
Without providing empirical scientific evidence, please diagnose either one of the following two examples of unreasonable Book of Mormon events.

first:
“2 Nephi 15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.
16 And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.”
This is illogical.

second:
According to “Ether” in the Book of Mormon, Jared and his brother built some boats. Into these boats went their families and friends. All together they “did cross many waters,” carrying with them “seeds of every kind,” flocks (“male and female, of every kind”), “fowls of the air”, “swarms of bees,” and “fish of the waters.”

Four years later, they built some boats again, “after the manner of barges which ye have hitherto built”. They crossed the ocean in these boats. It took a year. The boats were “small, and they were light upon the water, even like unto the lightness of a fowl upon the water”, “exceeding tight,” “tight like unto a dish”, because they were going to be “many times buried in the depths of the sea” by “mountain waves” during storms.

Flocks and herds, and fodder for them, and seeds of every kind, swarms of bees and fish plus containers of water - some for drinking and some for keeping the fish in. Please try to imagine all those life forms - bees, fish, fodder, livestock - imagine all these things in a windowless craft, tossed now this side up now that side up, driven by winds, mountainous waves. Bees, fish, eggs, water, humans, babies, fodder, waste matter flying past your head everywhere, sometimes to one side of the ship, sometimes to the other, no permanent floor, no permanent ceiling, air taken in only when someone could figure out which hole was up and which hole was down (“Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air. And if it be so that the water come in upon thee, behold, ye shall stop the hole, that ye may not perish in the flood.”).

Traveling like this - shaken up and down, rightside up today, upside down tomorrow, water coming in through one hole, gasping for air till the other hole is opened, dashed and thoroughly shaken about like this - for an entire year. *And surviving!!! *Does that sound like a reasonable scenario to you?

I’ve asked myself: How much drinking water was needed, and was there room for it? How was the inside kept clean of waste? When water rushed in because the wrong hole was unplugged, how was the excess salt water removed? When the ship tossed, how were people able to avoid breaking their bones as they collided into one another? How were the swarms of bees kept calm, or were they? what kept the fish from falling out of their fish-tanks when the boat capsized? Where did the birds roost? How did they keep the birds’ eggs from breaking during the flips? What did the inside of the boat smell like? This story is unreasonable.
 
Mormons cannot understand the eternal now. But they do understand the responsibility for truth, but not precisely the ultimately known truth.
 
The Mormon view of God, which is that He was man and became God, is so overwhelmingly unChristian I cannot fathom their current tactic of trying to market themselves as Christians when their theology is clearly not.
 
The Mormon view of God, which is that He was man and became God, is so overwhelmingly unChristian I cannot fathom their current tactic of trying to market themselves as Christians when their theology is clearly not.
You’re always welcome to learn more of you want 😉
 
The Mormon view of God, which is that He was man and became God, is so overwhelmingly unChristian I cannot fathom their current tactic of trying to market themselves as Christians when their theology is clearly not.
You’re always welcome to learn more of you want 😉
Jane_Doe, I find your response to socalbrian intriguing. I’ll re-quote the passage from 1 Corinthians chapter 12, even though I know it’s been quoted earlier:
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

I bold that portion in verse 11 because this is the binding force of the whole passage, that the Christian assembly is united in Spirit, several in manifestation. Note that not all are apportioned the gift of keen spiritual discernment, neither are all apportioned the gift of worldly wisdom. How does the Holy Ghost witness, therefore, to the honest seeker who finds herself believing in the veracity of the LDS faith, when the gift of faith is granted to each believer differently, and, furthermore, amalgamates all these different components to form one single witness to the gospel? How much do we have to study about the faith before the Holy Ghost witnesses? How much do we have to intuit about the faith, or feel about the faith, before the Holy Ghost cooperates with us?

Where’s the line God’s drawing in the sand for each individual human being seeking guidance from the divine? The fact is, no one can dictate that line for any person, apart from God and the individual.
 
Jane_Doe, I find your response to socalbrian intriguing. I’ll re-quote the passage from 1 Corinthians chapter 12, even though I know it’s been quoted earlier:
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

I bold that portion in verse 11 because this is the binding force of the whole passage, that the Christian assembly is united in Spirit, several in manifestation. Note that not all are apportioned the gift of keen spiritual discernment, neither are all apportioned the gift of worldly wisdom. How does the Holy Ghost witness, therefore, to the honest seeker who finds herself believing in the veracity of the LDS faith, when the gift of faith is granted to each believer differently, and, furthermore, amalgamates all these different components to form one single witness to the gospel? How much do we have to study about the faith before the Holy Ghost witnesses? How much do we have to intuit about the faith, or feel about the faith, before the Holy Ghost cooperates with us?

Where’s the line God’s drawing in the sand for each individual human being seeking guidance from the divine? The fact is, no one can dictate that line for any person, apart from God and the individual.
I’m sorry, but your question strikes me as quite non-sequitur. I was not asking socialbrain to discern anything, just letting him/her know that there’s always a door open for acquiring new information. Acquiring more knowledge is a good things about any faith, and does not need to be tied conversion.

For example, I myself came to the forum originally to acquire more information about Catholicism, and quite successfully was able to dispel misconceptions about the Catholic faith and learn about dimensions I previously did not know existed. And no where along this process have I once thought about converting.
 
The Mormon view of God, which is that He was man and became God, is so overwhelmingly unChristian I cannot fathom their current tactic of trying to market themselves as Christians when their theology is clearly not.
jane_doe;13984365:
You’re always welcome to learn more of you want 😉
I’m sorry, but your question strikes me as quite non-sequitur. I was not asking socialbrain to discern anything, just letting him/her know that there’s always a door open for acquiring new information. Acquiring more knowledge is a good things about any faith, and does not need to be tied conversion.

For example, I myself came to the forum originally to acquire more information about Catholicism, and quite successfully was able to dispel misconceptions about the Catholic faith and learn about dimensions I previously did not know existed. And no where along this process have I once thought about converting.
It is always a good thing to acquire more knowledge, but jane_doe is suggesting that socalbrian is wrong. The fact is he is not wrong, and acquiring more knowledge will not change the fact that Mormonism does not believe in the Christian God.
 
It is always a good thing to acquire more knowledge, but jane_doe is suggesting that socalbrian is wrong. The fact is he is not wrong, and acquiring more knowledge will not change the fact that Mormonism does not believe in the Christian God.
Acquiring more knowledge and getting your facts straight is ALWAYS a good thing, even when applied to a faith you 100% believe is false. Example, I believe Catholicism is false (no offense, I respect that majority of people here believe differently), but I still believe that me getting my facts about Catholicism straight is VERY important.
 
Acquiring more knowledge and getting your facts straight is ALWAYS a good thing, even when applied to a faith you 100% believe is false. Example, I believe Catholicism is false (no offense, I respect that majority of people here believe differently), but I still believe that me getting my facts about Catholicism straight is VERY important.
Getting facts straight and recognizing the LDS worship a different god than the Christian God are two different things. Coming to CAF to confirm you prior notion that Catholicism is false is illogical. I know LDS theology is false, I have no need to go to an LDS site to confirm that belief.

I think it would be very difficult to get “your facts” about Catholicism straight as you had already made up your mind about it. Any “facts” you learn in the process are biased and/or just your opinion.
 
Acquiring more knowledge and getting your facts straight is ALWAYS a good thing, even when applied to a faith you 100% believe is false. Example, I believe Catholicism is false (no offense, I respect that majority of people here believe differently), but I still believe that me getting my facts about Catholicism straight is VERY important.
The way you have learned about Catholicism is by Catholics continuing to engage while defending, explaining, and clarifying our ancient beliefs. A Mormon will make a claim, and then disengage when asked to defend or clarify their claim.

To know that Mormons believe in a different god than Christians, one has to learn what the Mormon Church teaches and what Christianity teaches; then compare them.

There is an active thread on this board which is discussing this very topic which you had posted on. When the topic got to the point of requiring you to defend the Mormon position, you stopped posting and so has the other Mormon. I would conclude that socalbrian’s statement is correct, and repeating your subterfuge here does not change that fact.
 
Coming to CAF to confirm you prior notion that Catholicism is false is illogical.
Except I did not come to CAF to confirm my prior notion that Catholicism is false.

Instead, I came to CAF to learn more about Catholicism, which has been a successful and profitable venture. I now have a much more accurate view of Catholicism and discovered entire dimensions of the faith I had no idea existed previously, such as the Eastern Rites. I feel that my time here has been well worth it.
 
The way you have learned about Catholicism is by Catholics continuing to engage while defending, explaining, and clarifying our ancient beliefs. A Mormon will make a claim, and then disengage when asked to defend or clarify their claim.
On CAF, proselytizing is STRICTLY prohibited. Many Mormons, such as myself, do not go in depth about our beliefs here, because of these rules and the simple fact that this is a Catholic forum. On an LDS forum you’ll get a much more in depth response. Alternatively, feel free to email me and we can have a conversation via email (I have extended this offer many times).
 
On CAF, proselytizing is STRICTLY prohibited. Many Mormons, such as myself, do not go in depth about our beliefs here, because of these rules and the simple fact that this is a Catholic forum. On an LDS forum you’ll get a much more in depth response. Alternatively, feel free to email me and we can have a conversation via email (I have extended this offer many times).
Yes, your post #52 was proselytizing that is why I took the time to counter it. Your claim of not wanting to proselytize is an excuse you use when you are unable to defend Mormon beliefs. As I said, I made my argument on the other thread which has not been refuted.
 
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