P
ParkerD
Guest
Don Leon,Zerinus:
I am still waiting for an answer to my request for proof. Or is there none?
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
The proof is in 1 Kings 19:9-19.
- Status
The proof is in 1 Kings 19:9-19.
P
ParkerD
Guest
Janet,
The “contradictions” are there so that people such as yourself will have something to hang their hat on. This life is about sifting hearts and hearts desires. I’ve known several wonderful Southern Baptists, and have enjoyed their friendships and their strong belief in Christ as the Savior. You’ll be fine with your religion–it gets you where you want to be.
J
Janet1983
Guest
First vision 1 of 2
I got another question concerning the BoM and J. Smith…
How come he changed his account of the first vision several times?
1827 First Vision Account as related to Willard Chase
Account of Joseph Smith, Sr., and Joseph Smith, Jr., given to Willard Chase, as related in his 1833 affidavit. Joseph Smith’s New York Reputation Reexamined, Rodger I. Anderson, Signature Books, 1990, p. 121.
Account of Martin Harris given to the Rev. John A. Clark, as related in his 1842 book Gleanings by the Way, W.J. & J.K. Simon, pp. 222ff. [Microfilm copy].
Interview of Joseph Smith by Peter Bauder, recounted by Bauder in his book The Kingdom and the Gospel of Jesus Christ, printed in 1834, pp. 36-38 (See Early Mormon Documents, vol.1, compiled by Dan Vogel, Signature Books, 1996, pp. 16-17).
Earliest known attempt at an ‘official’ recounting of the ‘First Vision, from History, 1832, Joseph Smith Letterbook 1, pp.2,3, in the handwriting of Joseph Smith (See An American Prophet’s Record, edited by Scott Faulring, Signature Books, 1989, p.5; The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, compiled by Dean Jessee, Deseret Book, 1984, pp. 5-6; Early Mormon Documents, vol.1, compiled by Dan Vogel, Signature Books, 1996, pp. 26-31)
Oliver Cowdery, with Joseph Smith’s help, published the first history of Mormonism in the LDS periodical Messenger and Advocate, Kirtland, Ohio, Dec. 1834, vol.1, no.3.
Account, Joseph Smith Diary, Nov. 9, 1835 as found in Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, compiled by Dean C. Jessee, pp. 75-77; also in An American Prophet’s Record, p. 51.
I got another question concerning the BoM and J. Smith…
How come he changed his account of the first vision several times?
1827 First Vision Account as related to Willard Chase
Account of Joseph Smith, Sr., and Joseph Smith, Jr., given to Willard Chase, as related in his 1833 affidavit. Joseph Smith’s New York Reputation Reexamined, Rodger I. Anderson, Signature Books, 1990, p. 121.
- A spirit telling about the plates, appears to J. Smith several years before he gets them
- The spirit transforms form a toad to a man and strikes Smith as he is trying to gets the plates. The spirit tells Smith to come back in a year and repeats this several years in a row.
- Smith is about 17 (1823) when the spirit appears
- Smith obtains the gold book using the seer stone he found in the well of Willard Chase
- Smith found the book in the context of money digging
- Smith is about 21 (1827) when he retrieves the plates
- No mentioning of a revival
- He retrieves the plates while out with his wife but hides them in the woods
- Joseph approaches Martin Harris, a man with money, to say that God has given Joseph a commandment that Harris is the one God wants to assist [financially] in producing the Book of Mormon.
Account of Martin Harris given to the Rev. John A. Clark, as related in his 1842 book Gleanings by the Way, W.J. & J.K. Simon, pp. 222ff. [Microfilm copy].
- No mentioning of a revival
- After an evening of money-digging an angel appears to Smith in a vision telling him he has been chosen to be a prophet and bring forth a record on gold plates.
- Before Joseph can get them he must go to Pennsylvania to meet the woman who will be his wife.
- After marrying her Joseph must wait until the birth of his first child. Once the child has completed his second year Joseph could get the chest with the gold book.
- Approximate age 18-19 (1824-25) when angel first appears (Joseph met Emma Hale in 1825, married her Jan. 18, 1827)
- Joseph’s first child is born and only 6 months old when he tells his family
- Joseph and his father disobey the angel and look for the chest using Joseph’s clairvoyance. They find it but the angel appears, Joseph knocked is to the ground and severely reprimanded.
- A little later another divine communication tells Joseph he can go alone to get the chest, bring it home but not open it until his son is two years old.
- Joseph in the meantime is to begin translating the plates using the spectacles but leave the gold book in the chest
- Joseph would dictate words to Harris, while looking through the stones, but Joseph and Harris had to be separated by a suspended blanket during the dictation process.
Interview of Joseph Smith by Peter Bauder, recounted by Bauder in his book The Kingdom and the Gospel of Jesus Christ, printed in 1834, pp. 36-38 (See Early Mormon Documents, vol.1, compiled by Dan Vogel, Signature Books, 1996, pp. 16-17).
- Joseph Smith could give Bauder no “Christian experience”, ie. no conversion experience or manifestation of saving grace in his life
- Smith claimed an angel told him where to find a secret treasure
- Smith returned once a year for several years before getting the plates
- Angel took the plates back after the translation
Earliest known attempt at an ‘official’ recounting of the ‘First Vision, from History, 1832, Joseph Smith Letterbook 1, pp.2,3, in the handwriting of Joseph Smith (See An American Prophet’s Record, edited by Scott Faulring, Signature Books, 1989, p.5; The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, compiled by Dean Jessee, Deseret Book, 1984, pp. 5-6; Early Mormon Documents, vol.1, compiled by Dan Vogel, Signature Books, 1996, pp. 26-31)
- Smith started serious study of the scriptures at age 12
- Felt convicted of sins
- Determined all churches were wrong
- No mention of a revival
- Omits money-digging context
- Age 15 (in his 16th year)
- Location not clear
- Vision of the Savior – Jesus Christ (has a “Christian experience”)
- Told his sins were forgiven. Fell back into transgression.
- At age 17 he again prayed and an angel appeared telling him about the plates and announced again he was forgiven of his sins.
- About this time Smith dictated Sec. 84 of the D.&C. stating that no man can see the face of God without the priesthood and live [vs. 22].
Oliver Cowdery, with Joseph Smith’s help, published the first history of Mormonism in the LDS periodical Messenger and Advocate, Kirtland, Ohio, Dec. 1834, vol.1, no.3.
- A revival stirred in him a desire to “know for himself of the certainty and reality of pure and holy religion.”
- Desired to know if a Supreme being did exist, and wanted manifestation that his sins were forgiven.
- Age 17 (1823)
- He was in his bedroom
- Vision of an angel
- Told sins were forgiven and Lord would do a work through him
- Told about gold plates and their location
Account, Joseph Smith Diary, Nov. 9, 1835 as found in Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, compiled by Dean C. Jessee, pp. 75-77; also in An American Prophet’s Record, p. 51.
- “Wrought up” in his mind about religion
- Age 14 (1820)
- In a grove
- Had a vision of one personage and then another
- One personage testifies about Jesus, but neither is identified as Jesus
- Saw many angels in this first visitation
- Was told sins were forgiven
- Later (age 17) has another vision of angels
- No mention of revival
J
Janet1983
Guest
First vision 2 of 2
1835 First Vision Account by Joseph Smith given to Erastus Holmes
Account given by Joseph Smith to Erastus Holmes on November 14, 1835, originally published in the Deseret News of Saturday May 29, 1852, later published in the History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 312.
This account became the official version, now part of Mormon Scripture in the Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith — History, 1:7-20. Though written in 1838, it was not published until 1842 in Times and Seasons, March 15, 1842, vol. 3, no. 10, pp. 727-728, 748-749, 753.
Account in An Original History of the Religious Denominations at Present Existing in the United States, edited by Daniel Rupp. Joseph Smith wrote the chapter on Mormonism. Contained in, New Mormon Studies CD-ROM, Smith Research Associates.
Interview with Martin Harris, Tiffany’s Monthly, 1859, New York: Published by Joel Tiffany, vol. v.—12, pp. 163-170.
First, Joseph did not relate his story consistently, but changed key elements over the years. He changed:
1835 First Vision Account by Joseph Smith given to Erastus Holmes
Account given by Joseph Smith to Erastus Holmes on November 14, 1835, originally published in the Deseret News of Saturday May 29, 1852, later published in the History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 312.
- age 14 (1820)
- had a vision of angels
- later had revelations about the Book of Mormon
- this account parallels the one given to Joshua
This account became the official version, now part of Mormon Scripture in the Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith — History, 1:7-20. Though written in 1838, it was not published until 1842 in Times and Seasons, March 15, 1842, vol. 3, no. 10, pp. 727-728, 748-749, 753.
- A local revival caused him to wonder which church was right, it had never occurred to him all were wrong
- age 14 (1820)
- he was in a grove
- had a vision of two personages
- One identifies the other as his son (by implication God the Father and Jesus, but not explicitly stated)
- Was told all churches are wrong and is to join none of them
- Claimed to come under great persecution
- Fell into all kinds of temptations
- Three years later has vision of an angel
Account in An Original History of the Religious Denominations at Present Existing in the United States, edited by Daniel Rupp. Joseph Smith wrote the chapter on Mormonism. Contained in, New Mormon Studies CD-ROM, Smith Research Associates.
- Began reflecting on the importance of being prepared for the future state, but upon inquiring found a great conflict of religious opinion
- No mention of a revival
- Age 14 (1820)
- He was in a grove
- Had a vision of two personages - unidentified
- Was told all churches are wrong and is to join none of them
- Was told a future revelation would teach him of the fullness of the gospel
- Three years later has vision of a single personage (same description as previous personages) which is identified as an angel
Interview with Martin Harris, Tiffany’s Monthly, 1859, New York: Published by Joel Tiffany, vol. v.—12, pp. 163-170.
- The origin of Mormonism linked to the finding of the gold plates
- Joseph found plates using the seer stone he found in the well of Mason [Willard] Chase.
- Plates found in the context of money-digging
- Joseph’s family corroborated this story to Martin Harris
- No mention of a revival
- Age 21 (1827)
- Joseph retrieves plates while out with his wife but hides them in the woods
- Angel appeared to Joseph after finding the plates, and told him it [Book of Mormon] was God’s work and Joseph must “quit the company of the money-diggers.”
- Angel said the plates must be translated, printed and set before the world.
- Angel revealed to Joseph that Martin Harris was the man to assist in this work.
First, Joseph did not relate his story consistently, but changed key elements over the years. He changed:
- The date / his age — from 1823 (age 16), to 1821 (age 15), to 1820 (age 14)
- The reason or motive for seeking divine help — from no motive (a spirit appears with the news of gold plates), Bible reading and conviction of sins, a revival, a desire to know if God exists.
- Who appears to him — a spirit, an angel, two angels, Jesus, many angels, the Father and the Son.
J
Janet1983
Guest
Nope… Nothing more than “you can say what you want” and soft lullaby’s (depending on who is answering… Novocaine or toddler attitude…Zerinus:
I am still waiting for an answer to my request for proof. Or is there none?
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
Z
zerinus
Guest
He never changed anything. If you told the same story to ten different people at ten different times over twenty years, and they retold the story to others, your story will contain differences; especially if your experience was sacred one and you were careful not to discolse the full story to anyone.
Z
zerinus
Guest
Proof of what?Zerinus:
I am still waiting for an answer to my request for proof. Or is there none?
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
J
Janet1983
Guest
That’s just baloney… By the way… I am related to some Mormons. That I love them and that they are indeed wonderful people does not change the fact that they are wrong and carnal and on their way to hell if they don’t repent and turn to Jesus. It would break my heart, but I cannot get them saved. Your 11th article does not change that even though I get that over and over again… You have yours and we have ours… 2 things that contradict each other cannot be right at the same time. That’s logic. You bet your life on the ramblings of a money-digger who had an encounter with a talking toad that later turned into a man…
A
Answersplease
Guest
B
bmadamsberry
Guest
Hey guys! Just wanted to interject with the fact that scientists (such as Murphy and Southerton, both of whom were LDS members) have shown that the DNA in Native Americans can be traced back to Asia, not to the Middle East.
Furthermore, there has not been archealogical evidence for places described in the Book of Mormon. Though some people argue that there is a difference because of historical continuity, it still does not excuse it (there have been locations in the Old Testament for which archeologists have not had Biblical Continuity, but they were able to find it nevertheless). Furthermore places such as Troy have been discovered, as well as other places that did not have historical continuity.
In reference to horses. While they are also indigenous to the Americas, they went extinct roughly 15,000 years ago.
And we can’t forget the anachron. of the Book of Mormon. These include chariots (Alma 18:9) when there were no wheeled vehicles of any kind, steel swords (Ether 7:9) when there was neither steel nor swords, bellows for blacksmithing (1 Nephi 17:11), and silk (Alma 1:29).
Oh, and also the fact that the culture described in the BoM conflicts with that of the actual inhabitants of Mesoamerica. The Book of Mormon peoples had a seven-day week (Mosiah 13:18), but no Mesoamerican calendar matches this. Most stunning of all, the Book of Mormon never once indicates that the American continent was anything but uninhabited when the refugees from Jerusalem arrived. Of course, there were actually millions of Native Americans occupying the land from one coast to the other.
The BoM refers to a host of animals that did not exist in the pre-Columbian Americas or had been extinct in that region for thousands of years preceding the period described in the book. These include the ***, bull, calf, cattle, cow, domestic goat, horse, ox, domestic sheep, sow, swine and elephants. Several common animals that actually existed in Mesoamerica (deer, jaguars, tapir, monkeys, sloths, turkeys, llamas, alpacas, guinea pigs) are never mentioned. Also described are crops that didn’t exist, such as wheat (Mosiah 9:9) and barley (Alma 11:7) Indeed, the agricultural techniques required to produce those crops didn’t exist either. Once again, crops that were commonly known to Mesoamerica (chocolate, lima beans, squash, potatoes, tomatoes, manioc) are not referenced.
Furthermore, there has not been archealogical evidence for places described in the Book of Mormon. Though some people argue that there is a difference because of historical continuity, it still does not excuse it (there have been locations in the Old Testament for which archeologists have not had Biblical Continuity, but they were able to find it nevertheless). Furthermore places such as Troy have been discovered, as well as other places that did not have historical continuity.
In reference to horses. While they are also indigenous to the Americas, they went extinct roughly 15,000 years ago.
And we can’t forget the anachron. of the Book of Mormon. These include chariots (Alma 18:9) when there were no wheeled vehicles of any kind, steel swords (Ether 7:9) when there was neither steel nor swords, bellows for blacksmithing (1 Nephi 17:11), and silk (Alma 1:29).
Oh, and also the fact that the culture described in the BoM conflicts with that of the actual inhabitants of Mesoamerica. The Book of Mormon peoples had a seven-day week (Mosiah 13:18), but no Mesoamerican calendar matches this. Most stunning of all, the Book of Mormon never once indicates that the American continent was anything but uninhabited when the refugees from Jerusalem arrived. Of course, there were actually millions of Native Americans occupying the land from one coast to the other.
The BoM refers to a host of animals that did not exist in the pre-Columbian Americas or had been extinct in that region for thousands of years preceding the period described in the book. These include the ***, bull, calf, cattle, cow, domestic goat, horse, ox, domestic sheep, sow, swine and elephants. Several common animals that actually existed in Mesoamerica (deer, jaguars, tapir, monkeys, sloths, turkeys, llamas, alpacas, guinea pigs) are never mentioned. Also described are crops that didn’t exist, such as wheat (Mosiah 9:9) and barley (Alma 11:7) Indeed, the agricultural techniques required to produce those crops didn’t exist either. Once again, crops that were commonly known to Mesoamerica (chocolate, lima beans, squash, potatoes, tomatoes, manioc) are not referenced.
J
Janet1983
Guest
Something that is this important I wouldn’t just forget!!
I would remember whether I talked to a toad or to Jesus Himself! I would remember where I was… This is a heavenly encounter and something like that changes lives. The only reason to make changes here is to get rid of the truth… He was not spiritual, went out money digging, talked to a demon in the form of a toad that afterwards changed into a man…
And just out of curiosity… why did Harris account not change between 1827 and 1859?
P
ParkerD
Guest
Janet,
You’re funny. I don’t bet my life on anyone. You don’t understand the scriptures. God is my witness, not any person. Have a nice day. (Your relatives will be OK–no need to have a heart broken over fear for them in the hereafter.) It’s ironic. One Southern Baptist friend I have helped me tremendously with our joint family history–a very distant cousin.
D
DonLeon
Guest
Thank you Parker for answering, but that is not the tangible proof that I am looking for.
Besides, the Jehovahs Witnesses and members of Christian Science, ( and probably many others ) have also used 1 Kings 19:9-19 to try to prove their legitimacy.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
D
DonLeon
Guest
If you had read my post you would know what I was asking for. I repeat : tangible irrefutible proof, by means of Archaeology,Science and History ( such as has been, and is
being, done with the Holy Bible ) to prove that the BOM, in itself, is not a book of Joseph
Smith’s vivid imagination.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
D
DonLeon
Guest
I’ve recieved an answer from Parker, but not what I was looking for.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
C
Christian55
Guest
Zundrah: I 'm confused. Are you going to convert to Catholicism?gurneyhalleck The Catholic faith is the one and only faith chosen and founded by christ!Protestants are just fallen away due to lack of understanding and a additon of rebellion…
Catholics; pray for protestants please… that they do not join the wrong church while they are lost from the one true church that Christ chose for them…
I thought about you when I woke up this morning, and began to pray that you would not go to the Mormon services. Please be careful my Christian friend.
Christian55
J
Janet1983
Guest
Pick your poison?
Z
Zundrah
Guest
Huh, what?
Z
Zundrah
Guest
You were worried about me? That’s the nicest thing I’ve heard in ages… I will be okay though, God is with me.
xxx (zundrah) jennifer xxx
U
usemelord
Guest
Janet1983, I must say that Zundrah beat me to the punch when he replied, “Huh, what?” to your remark about picking his “poison.” I note you describe yourself as an ex-Catholic. What exactly is it that you have against the Catholic church that you would feel a need to compare it and Mormonism as “poisons”? I can fully understand the Mormon part of the equation, but please don’t put Catholicism in the same hemisphere. We must have crossed paths somewhere on the road as I am an ex-Baptist/Bible church guy. All my life (I’ll be 65 on Sunday) I felt all I needed was the Bible and the Cross. I was “born again” 50 years ago and married, of all things, a Catholic. Never understood the Mass and everything that went with it, then felt a call to try to make sense of it and began attending RCIA five years ago. After “connecting all the dots” everything came into focus for me, especially the Eucharist and I’ve been on fire ever since coming into the CC at Easter Vigil, 2005. For lack of a better expression, I feel that I came to know the fullness of the Truth. I know this thread is suppose to be about the BoM, but just felt compelled to comment regarding your cautionary remark to Zundrah. Whatever your reason for classifying yourself as “ex-Catholic” may God continue to bless you richly.
- Status