The Book of Mormon... have you read it?

[Janet1983]

Janet1983, I must say that Zundrah beat me to the punch when he replied, “Huh, what?” to your remark about picking his “poison.” I note you describe yourself as an ex-Catholic. What exactly is it that you have against the Catholic church that you would feel a need to compare it and Mormonism as “poisons”? I can fully understand the Mormon part of the equation, but please don’t put Catholicism in the same hemisphere. We must have crossed paths somewhere on the road as I am an ex-Baptist/Bible church guy. All my life (I’ll be 65 on Sunday) I felt all I needed was the Bible and the Cross. I was “born again” 50 years ago and married, of all things, a Catholic. Never understood the Mass and everything that went with it, then felt a call to try to make sense of it and began attending RCIA five years ago. After “connecting all the dots” everything came into focus for me, especially the Eucharist and I’ve been on fire ever since coming into the CC at Easter Vigil, 2005. For lack of a better expression, I feel that I came to know the fullness of the Truth. I know this thread is suppose to be about the BoM, but just felt compelled to comment regarding your cautionary remark to Zundrah. Whatever your reason for classifying yourself as “ex-Catholic” may God continue to bless you richly.

Apart from several doctrinal issues… I also have personal experience.

 

[Zundrah]

Janet1983, I must say that Zundrah beat me to the punch when he replied, “Huh, what?” to your remark about picking his “poison.” I note you describe yourself as an ex-Catholic. What exactly is it that you have against the Catholic church that you would feel a need to compare it and Mormonism as “poisons”? I can fully understand the Mormon part of the equation, but please don’t put Catholicism in the same hemisphere. We must have crossed paths somewhere on the road as I am an ex-Baptist/Bible church guy. All my life (I’ll be 65 on Sunday) I felt all I needed was the Bible and the Cross. I was “born again” 50 years ago and married, of all things, a Catholic. Never understood the Mass and everything that went with it, then felt a call to try to make sense of it and began attending RCIA five years ago. After “connecting all the dots” everything came into focus for me, especially the Eucharist and I’ve been on fire ever since coming into the CC at Easter Vigil, 2005. For lack of a better expression, I feel that I came to know the fullness of the Truth. I know this thread is suppose to be about the BoM, but just felt compelled to comment regarding your cautionary remark to Zundrah. Whatever your reason for classifying yourself as “ex-Catholic” may God continue to bless you richly.

…oh, so that is what she meant by poison!?
Janet, darling, the catholic church is very gentle to christians as is the protestants too but the mormon church have very odd and anti - christian beliefs… I know that the catholic chruch hurt you in the past but rest assured to you that the catholic faith is okay, even if you are protestant there is no need to fear it.

P.S usemelord, SHE HAD A VERY BAD EXPERIENCE MANY YEARS AGO IN THE CATHOLIC CHRUCH! I spoke to her a while ago…let’s be gentle with her.

And don’t worry about going off topic, this is some thing that we need to help her with.

 

[usemelord]

Janet1983, thank you so much for your personal experience as chronicled back on post #59. I read it carefully and could almost literally feel your pain. Don’t take this wrong, but it sounds like you were your own worst enemy, doing so much, yet feeling inadequate at the same time. The closer we get in our relationship to God, the more inadequate and unworthy we feel. Mother Teresa felt the same way. Here was a very holy woman who felt a need to go to confession almost every day, and described her last years as her darkest (spiritually). On the other hand, those who are far away from God, have no consciousness of guilt; they are clueless. I’m sure you know by now that good works, all the things you were doing for the church, did not earn you your salvation. Obviously, that was a misguided thought if you thought that way. At the same time, we have to be reminded that faith without works is dead. Also, I understand the idea of being “born again,” since I’ve “been there, done that.” However, now when people ask me when I was saved, I tell them 2000 years ago! Praise God. One last thing. Don’t you miss the Eucharist?

 

[Zundrah]

Janet1983, thank you so much for your personal experience as chronicled back on post #59. I read it carefully and could almost literally feel your pain. Don’t take this wrong, but it sounds like you were your own worst enemy, doing so much, yet feeling inadequate at the same time. The closer we get in our relationship to God, the more inadequate and unworthy we feel. Mother Teresa felt the same way. Here was a very holy woman who felt a need to go to confession almost every day, and described her last years as her darkest (spiritually). On the other hand, those who are far away from God, have no consciousness of guilt; they are clueless. I’m sure you know by now that good works, all the things you were doing for the church, did not earn you your salvation. Obviously, that was a misguided thought if you thought that way. At the same time, we have to be reminded that faith without works is dead. Also, I understand the idea of being “born again,” since I’ve “been there, done that.” However, now when people ask me when I was saved, I tell them 2000 years ago! Praise God. One last thing. Don’t you miss the Eucharist?

Janet… poor thing. I will pray that she does not begrudge the catholic chruch for this…

xxx jennifer xxx

 

[zerinus]

Something that is this important I wouldn’t just forget!!

I didn’t say that he “forgot” anything. When you condense a story, you leave things out; and when you condense it on different occasions and at differnt times, you leave different things out. The different accounts of the First Vision are contradictory. They just leave different things out.

 

[DonLeon]

Apart from several doctrinal issues… I also have personal experience.

Janet : putting my two cents in, I’ve delved into and studied them all, from Zen Bhuddism
to Jehovahs Witnesses ( including Mormonism ) and from Roman Catholicism to Theosiphy, Believe me when I say that the Catholic Church ( both Eastern and Western Rites ) is the only true church that was established by Jesus about 2000 years ago. It alone has all the truths that are necessary for your salvation, and I have said many times in these posts “to prove otherwwise is an exercise in futility” . If you have doctrinal differences, then discuss them with an apologist, theologian, or read about it in the early history of the church. What ever doctrines and tenets there are, in Catholicism, are all bibicaly based, for to do otherwise would be in violation of Jesus’ teachings. The Catholic Church cannot and will not do that.

As for your personal experience, almost all of us have had one at one time or another. This really is no excuse to leave the Church. There are many of us here in this forum who would be ready, willing and able to help you, either publically or privately. Please think it over, and may the Holy Spirit guide you and bless you.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[zerinus]

If you had read my post you would know what I was asking for. I repeat : tangible irrefutible proof, by means of Archaeology,Science and History ( such as has been, and is
being, done with the Holy Bible ) to prove that the BOM, in itself, is not a book of Joseph
Smith’s vivid imagination.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Then I recommend you to read an article I wrote in my Blog about the Archaelogy and the Book of Mormon. You can read it here. If after reading that article you have further questions, come back to me and we will talk about it further.

 

[DonLeon]

Then I recommend you to read an article I wrote in my Blog about the Archaelogy and the Book of Mormon. You can read it here. If after reading that article you have further questions, come back to me and we will talk about it further.

Thank you Zerinus for your answer. I have read your blog and also the article about the bible. According to you, archaeology, etc. is not an exact science, therefore accepting your description, and explanation, I can only come to one conclusion, that both the bible and the BOM are both fables and a bunch of tripe. There is no actual, intangible, irrefutible, proof for either. I will now become an atheist.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[usemelord]

DonLeon, you are too funny!! My kind of sense of humor. If I knew how, I would attach one of those faces, but I don’t know how. I’m a technophobe.

 

[zerinus]

Thank you Zerinus for your answer. I have read your blog and also the article about the bible. According to you, archaeology, etc. is not an exact science, therefore accepting your description, and explanation, I can only come to one conclusion, that both the bible and the BOM are both fables and a bunch of tripe. There is no actual, intangible, irrefutible, proof for either. I will now become an atheist.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Then you couldn’t have read my article very carefully. It is impossible to come to that conclusion from reading that article, unless you utterly failed to understand it. I don’t think it is that difficult to understand.

 

[Christian55]

Zundrah: I 'm confused. Are you going to convert to Catholicism?

I thought about you when I woke up this morning, and began to pray that you would not go to the Mormon services. Please be careful my Christian friend.

Christian55

You were worried about me? That’s the nicest thing I’ve heard in ages… I will be okay though, God is with me.

xxx (zundrah) jennifer xxx

Zundrah: Does this mean you will not go with the Mormons? Please say you will not. I really have a bad feeling about this.

Christian55

 

[Janet1983]

This really is no excuse to leave the Church.

It is a reason, my reason and I was asked for it.
If it is no excuse then I guess I am not excused by you or maybe not even by the Catholic Church. I’ve been there and done that… I’ve been an integral part of my parish up to being a catechist. I have my reasons and if the Catholic Church does not excuse those let them excommunicate me as they did to many who found God’s grace before me…

 

[Janet1983]

Also, I understand the idea of being “born again,” since I’ve “been there, done that.” However, now when people ask me when I was saved, I tell them 2000 years ago! Praise God. One last thing. Don’t you miss the Eucharist?

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt? No, I don’t miss it… at all.
There is something called regeneration and I do not need to pray to this thing.
I hope however that you are one of the true Christians in the Catholic Church that I sometimes refer to… Saved despite Roman teachings…

 

[DonLeon]

It is a reason, my reason and I was asked for it.
If it is no excuse then I guess I am not excused by you or maybe not even by the Catholic Church. I’ve been there and done that… I’ve been an integral part of my parish up to being a catechist. I have my reasons and if the Catholic Church does not excuse those let them excommunicate me as they did to many who found God’s grace before me…

Ok, Janet. I accede to your statement and reasons. I’m truly sorry that you are so bitter about it. If there is anything I may do, please do not hesitate to ask. Meanwhile God’s blessings on you.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[DonLeon]

Then you couldn’t have read my article very carefully. It is impossible to come to that conclusion from reading that article, unless you utterly failed to understand it. I don’t think it is that difficult to understand.

I have read it completely and understand it completely and I stand by my statement!

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[zerinus]

I have read it completely and understand it completely and I stand by my statement!

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Did you read this part too:

Thirdly, religion is a matter of faith, not of science or archaeology. We accept things on faith, even though there may not be a rational justification to support it. That applies to all true religions, in all ages of the world. Where is the archaeological evidence that Jesus Christ was the Son of God? There isn’t, and in fact there cannot be any. If we are lucky, we may be able to find some independent corroborative evidence from history or archaeology that a historical figure by the name of Jesus Christ actually existed, and that He even performed miracles; but that does not prove that He was the Son of God—and that is what makes religion. Where is the archaeological evidence that Elijah was a prophet of God? There isn’t, and cannot be any. If we are lucky, we may find some independent historical or archaeological evidence that somebody by the name of King Ahab existed; but it does not prove to us the words that Elijah spoke to him came from God—and that is what makes religion. How do I know that Jesus was the Son of God? In the same way that Peter did—by the testimony of the Holy Ghost: “Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 16:17). That is the only way that I or anyone else ever could know. How do I know that the Bible is the word of God? In the same way that I know that the Book of Mormon is—by the testimony of the Holy Ghost. There is no other way.

Faith and archaeological/scientific evidence do not go together. Faith comes by “hearing the word of God” (Romans 10:17); and especially as that “word” is preached by the power of the Holy Ghost through a great prophet of God such as Moses, or Peter, or Joseph Smith. It does not come by scientific, historical, or archaeological evidence. If faith is based on archaeological or historical evidence, than it is not true faith.

Genuine faith never comes by signs or by scientific evidence. The Jews had many signs and miracles wrought among them, but still they did not believe. To the unbelieving Jews the Lord said: “A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; . . .” (Matthew 16:4). And to the doubting Thomas the Lord said, “. . . because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed” (John 20:29). The Book of Mormon clarifies it further as follows:

Alma 32:

17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

19 And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?

20 Now of this thing ye must judge. Behold, I say unto you, that it is on the one hand even as it is on the other; and it shall be unto every man according to his work.

21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.​

And the Book of Ether further adds:

Ether 12:

6 And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.​

 

[usemelord]

zerinus, sounds like your references to Alma 32:21 and Ether 12:6 are altered, not to mention archaic and plagiarized, versions of II Corinthians 4:18, “So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.” And, Alma 32:20 likewise sounds a bit like Revelation 20:13, “…and each person was judged according to what he had done.” As for me and my house, the Bible is wholly sufficient.

 

[DonLeon]

Did you read this part too:

Thirdly, religion is a matter of faith, not of science or archaeology. We accept things on faith, even though there may not be a rational justification to support it. That applies to all true religions, in all ages of the world. Where is the archaeological evidence that Jesus Christ was the Son of God? There isn’t, and in fact there cannot be any. If we are lucky, we may be able to find some independent corroborative evidence from history or archaeology that a historical figure by the name of Jesus Christ actually existed, and that He even performed miracles; but that does not prove that He was the Son of God—and that is what makes religion. Where is the archaeological evidence that Elijah was a prophet of God? There isn’t, and cannot be any. If we are lucky, we may find some independent historical or archaeological evidence that somebody by the name of King Ahab existed; but it does not prove to us the words that Elijah spoke to him came from God—and that is what makes religion. How do I know that Jesus was the Son of God? In the same way that Peter did—by the testimony of the Holy Ghost: “Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 16:17). That is the only way that I or anyone else ever could know. How do I know that the Bible is the word of God? In the same way that I know that the Book of Mormon is—by the testimony of the Holy Ghost. There is no other way.

Faith and archaeological/scientific evidence do not go together. Faith comes by “hearing the word of God” (Romans 10:17); and especially as that “word” is preached by the power of the Holy Ghost through a great prophet of God such as Moses, or Peter, or Joseph Smith. It does not come by scientific, historical, or archaeological evidence. If faith is based on archaeological or historical evidence, than it is not true faith.

Genuine faith never comes by signs or by scientific evidence. The Jews had many signs and miracles wrought among them, but still they did not believe. To the unbelieving Jews the Lord said: “A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; . . .” (Matthew 16:4). And to the doubting Thomas the Lord said, “. . . because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed” (John 20:29). The Book of Mormon clarifies it further as follows:

Alma 32:

17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

19 And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?

20 Now of this thing ye must judge. Behold, I say unto you, that it is on the one hand even as it is on the other; and it shall be unto every man according to his work.

21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.​

And the Book of Ether further adds:

Ether 12:

6 And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.​

Sorry Zerinus. Try as you may, you still have not convinced me that the BOM is not a work of fiction and of the legality of Mormonism. I have a deep faith in Jesus Christ as true God and in the Church that he built upon Peter which has not changed any of Jesus’
teachings in almost 2000 years. Yes, there have been many black, deep black, episodes in its existance because of Satan’s attempt to destroy it. But Jesus told us about it and said that he will be with His Church always. If, as you say we have perverted His teachings and have strayed from the truth, then Jesus is/was not who he says/said he is/was, and is a charlatan, fraud, and bold faced liar and my faith is for naught.In truth, I believe Jesus, and NOT Joseph Smith and his “revelation”. Sorry to say, but Mormanism is but another cult, ( such as Christian Science, The Way International, Jehovahs Witnasses, etc. ) in the eyes of TRUE Christians, with its secret rites, handshake, and special undergarments that one must wear. The sooner you realize this and accept the real truth the closer you are to your salvation.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[zerinus]

Sorry Zerinus. Try as you may, you still have not convinced me that the BOM is not a work of fiction and of the legality of Mormonism.

I have no power to convince you, and never tried to. Only God can.

I have a deep faith in Jesus Christ as true God and in the Church that he built upon Peter . . .

You have not convinced me that you do. A faith that is based on archaeological evidence is no faith. You are deceiving yourself.

 

[DonLeon]

I have no power to convince you, and never tried to. Only God can.

You have not convinced me that you do. A faith that is based on archaeological evidence is no faith. You are deceiving yourself.

That is your opinion, which you are entitled to. God alone will decide.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem