The Book of Mormon... have you read it?

[zerinus]

A total aside, apropos of nothing at all…y’know, I’ve always had a problem with the ethics of verse 44. I mean, really…what’s this guy doing trespassing on someone else’s field, then cheating the owner? I mean, it might be one thing if he knew the worth of that treasure he hid and then paid what the treasure was worth, but then…why hide it in the first place?

Why not just show the treasure to the owner and say…I’ll give you everything I have for this?

The second example, where the merchant finds the pearl and did the same thing; there is no hint of him attempting to cheat the pearl diver over it.

Nope, that one has always bugged me a wee bit. What do y’all think?

Thank you dianaiad for your question. I think that you miss the Oriental mindset and the purpose of such parables. In the Oriental mind they were not meant to be analyzed with such detail as you try to do. The idea it tries to convey is the same as the other parable of the “pearl”. They both convey the idea of discovering something valuable, to the extent that you are willing to give up everything you have to obtain it. It is a bit like the “camel passing through the eye of the needle” proverb. You are not meant to analyze it in minute detail. It just means something that is nearly impossible to do.

 

[zerinus]

The letters don’t contradict each other… but the Bible and the BoM do…

You have already decided if you are truly Mormon… if the Bible and the BoM contradict each other you are to believe that the Bible is not translated correctly and therefore you have to choose…

Notice that the BoM does not have any annotations about the correct translation even though there have been clear changes in the past that are far more than just adaptation to the language of the time.
But to continue the claims, I will list you a few problems that the comparison between the BoM and the Bible shows…

Problem #1 – The first Christians

• “And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.” 40AD - Acts 11:26
• Alma 46:13-16 supposedly written in 73BC refers to Nephites as Christians.

Problem #2: Who is the head of the Church?

• Jesus is only head of Church - Colossians 1:18
• Joseph Smith is head of Church - D&C 28:2-6

Problem #3: Where was Jesus born?

• ”Jesus was born in Bethlehem” - Micah 5:2; Matthew 2:1; Matthew 21:17
• “He shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem” - Alma 7:10

Problem #5: Spirit or flesh?

• God is spirit without flesh &bones – John 4:24; Lk 24:39
• God has flesh and bones like man - D&C 130:22

Problem #6: All the earth or not?

• At the tower of Babel “the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth” - Genesis 11:9
• At the tower of Babel ”Jared and his brothers were not confounded” - Ether 1:33-37

Problem #7: Do we already have a sinful nature when we are only children?

• Yes - Psalm 51:5
• No - Moroni 8:8

Problem #8: Good or bad?

• Adam’s transgression was a sinful act of rebellion that unleashed the power of sin. - Genesis 3:16-19; Romans 5:12; 8:20-21
• The disobedience of Adam and Eve in eating the forbidden fruit was necessary so that they could have children and bring joy to mankind - 2 Nephi 2:23-25

Problem #9: Black skin cursed?

• The Bible teaches that God “made of one blood all nations of men” (Acts 17:26), that in Christ distinctions of ethnicity, gender and social class are erased (Galatians 3:28), and that God condemns favoritism (James 2:1)
• Black skin is a sign of God’s curse - 2 Nephi 5:21
  (BoM 1989 – And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.)

Problem #10: Saved by grace?

• Saved by grace alone - Ephesians 2:1,5; Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 11:6; Titus 3:5-6 (Good works are a result, not the basis, of a right relationship with God - Ephesians 2:10)
• ”it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” - 2 Nephi 25:23; see also Moroni 10:32

Problem #11: Obeying the Law?

• The Law of Moses dictates that priests have to come out of the tribe of Levi - Numbers 3:10; Exodus 29:9; Numbers 18:1-7
• The BoM people are described to have kept the Law of Moses (2 Nephi 5:10; 25:24), they were however of the tribe of Joseph (1 Nephi 5:17) or Manasseh (Alma 10:3) and therefore wouldn’t have been legitimate priests according to the Law

Problem #12: The temple(s)

• God commanded Israel to build only one temple to reflect that fact that there is only one true God (Deuteronomy 12:5,13-14; 16:5-6). the one legitimate temple was to be built in Jerusalem (Zion), the location designated by God (The Old Testament is filled with explicit references to God choosing Jerusalem [Zion] as the place where “His name would dwell” in the temple: for example, 1 Kings 8:44,48; 11:13,32,36; 14:21; 2 Kings 21:7; 23:27; 1 Chronicles 28:4; 2 Chronicles 6:6; 7:12,16; Psalm 78:68-69; Isaiah 18:7.
• The BoM peoples operated several temples - Alma 16:13; 23:2; 26:29

Which account do you believe?

Like dianaiad said, none of those are genuine contraditions. It is how you want to read them that makes it sound like a contradiction. You can find similar “contradictions” in the Bible. I gave a link in another post somewere that showed you many.

 

[zerinus]

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

2 Corinthians 11:14
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

And who is to say that those verses do not apply to you?

Hebrews 11
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

True Christian Faith is belief that the promises of Jesus The Christ are and will be made manifest.

All prophets must be proved by their prophecies.

All spirits must be tested against The Gospel Truth.

How many people would have believed Jesus The Christ if He never did any of His miracles?

Miracles follow faith, faith does not come by miracles. If Jesus performed any miracles, it is only when they had faith. If they had not faith, no miracles could be performed.

Past and present EVIDENCE is proof that FAITH in future promises is NOT misplaced faith.

What “evidence”? How do you know that Jesus performed any miracles at all? How do you know that the Gospel stories are not fairy tales—like many people believe they are?

Blind faith leaves you at the mercy of CHARLATANS and DEMONS.

Faith comes by “hearing the word of God,” says Paul, not by evidence. That is not blind faith.

 

[sunohc]

And who is to say that those verses do not apply to you?

Miracles follow faith, faith does not come by miracles. If Jesus performed any miracles, it is only when they had faith. If they had not faith, no miracles could be performed.

What “evidence”? How do you know that Jesus performed any miracles at all? How do you know that the Gospel stories are not fairy tales—like many people believe they are?

Faith comes by “hearing the word of God,” says Paul, not by evidence. That is not blind faith.

the Spirit is true.
As the bible says, (John 4:21-23)
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.

but we are also called to test the spirits and “truths” (1 John 4:1-6)

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”

So, it is also legitimate for us to DISCERN these books and “revelations from God”.
We don’t just accept things as truth so easily

Prayerful discernment in all these things will ultimately lead us to truth and God because OUR God (yes OUR, all of us) is a Faithful God yea?
And He will be so loving and kind to reveal truth to us no matter how how we try to discover it. God reveals more than we discover.
Praying constantly and trusting in the Spirit may lead to the Bible, may lead to worship, may lead to more praying, fasting, may even lead to authorities (Pope, pastors, teachers, mentors, parents).

But instead of bickering about who’s right or who’s wrong,
let’s all assume that we’ve only got a partial truth anyways. (there’s some bible verse from one of Paul’s letters that says we only prophecy or know half the truth?)**can someone please find me the verse, I cannot remember exactly where. Thanks)

and let’s all agree that we are ultimately called to Love. Can we love one another without having a head full of doctrine, theology, and religious affiliations?
Perhaps.

though I love hearing and discussing other theologies of different denominations.
TRULY I say to you all, that not one denomination contains the whole truth. (correct?)
It is BENEFICIAL for us all to really be OPEN to truth and always DISCERNING as well.
I just prefer the Catholic teachings because God speaks to me the best through this look on truth and Jesus Christ. But He also uses other denominations to speak different aspects of a central Truth, Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior,

 

[Answersplease]

And who is to say that those verses do not apply to you?

Those verses are from The New Testament, they are not from the Book of Mormon.
A prophet must be proved by his prophecies, prove to me Joseph Smith is a true prophet.
A spirit must be tested against The Gospel Truth, prove to me that any and all spirits in the Book of Mormon are in accordance with The New Testament’s teachings.

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

2 Corinthians 11:14
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

The New Testament is about Jesus The Christ, prove to me that you don’t have any prophets equal to or greater than Jesus The Christ.

Miracles follow faith, faith does not come by miracles. If Jesus performed any miracles, it is only when they had faith. If they had not faith, no miracles could be performed.

John 6:19
When they had rowed about three or four miles, they saw Jesus walking on the sea and coming near the boat, and they began to be afraid.

Jesus The Christ was already walking on the sea BEFORE the Apostles saw Him. Did they have faith that he would walk on water before they saw Him?

I doubt if Lazarus had faith when Jesus The Christ raised him from the dead.

What “evidence”? How do you know that Jesus performed any miracles at all? How do you know that the Gospel stories are not fairy tales—like many people believe they are?

The empty tomb is proof of The Resurrection, it would have been easy to discredit belief in Jesus The Christ if the Romans or Jews just produced His body.
The archaeological evidence of the ancient cities in The Holy Bible is proof.

Faith comes by “hearing the word of God,” says Paul, not by evidence. That is not blind faith.

Romans 10:17
Thus faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.

Your quote is also from The New Testament, and not the Book of Mormon. Your prophets still need to be proved and your spirits still need to be tested, see above.

The word of Christ says nothing about ALL your latter day prophets and apostles.

Also I did not say that faith comes from evidence, I said “EVIDENCE is proof that FAITH in future promises is NOT misplaced faith.”

 

[dianaiad]

The letters don’t contradict each other.

You get my point then.

but the Bible and the BoM do…

Ah, but we don’t think so, and it is we who are being asked the question “which would you pick?” Janet.

You have already decided if you are truly Mormon… if the Bible and the BoM contradict each other you are to believe that the Bible is not translated correctly and therefore you have to choose…

Janet, you are begging the question. We. Do. Not. Believe. That. They. Contradict. Each. Other.

You just dismissed my question of which would you pick, a letter from Peter or a letter from Paul by saying, in an offhand, ‘of course, what a dumb question’ sort of way “they don’t contradict each other.”

Well, there you go. I understand that you think that the Book of Mormon and the Bible contradict each other. I get that. But WE are the ones being asked to choose, and WE don’t think they do.

And with all due respect, Janet, in this case it is what we think that counts.

 

[DonLeon]

janet1983:
Zundrah:
Answeraplease:
Sunohc:

Please keep in mind that members of man-made religions who refuse to listen an/or accept the truth of the True Church the Jesus built upon Peter and that those religions claim to be THE true church are doing the work of Satan, just as Christ had said.

God Bless and keep the faith.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[ricko]

Another mistake in the Book of Mormon

Consider the place where John was baptizing, according to John 1:28. Look in different translations and you will see that the KJV says “Bethabara”, while virtually everything else says “Bethany.” To make a long story short, the “church father” Origen (c. 230 AD) changed the text from Bethany to Bethabara, honestly thinking that he was correcting an existing mistake, not making one. The original text of John absolutely, positively, read Bethany, and that is absolutely the name of the place where John was baptizing at that time. But the KJV translators didn’t know about the textual question, and so the KJV reads Bethabara, as I indicated above. This means nothing in the big scheme of things, but in the case of the Book of Mormon it does, because if the Book of Mormon was of divine origin then the prophecy in 1 Nephi 10:9 about where the Christ would be baptized would have mentioned the proper place, even though in Smith’s day it would have seemed wrong since the KJV said something else. But instead Smith copied the “prophecy” out of the KJV and so copied down the wrong place.

 

[Janet1983]

Janet, you are begging the question. We. Do. Not. Believe. That. They. Contradict. Each. Other.

You just dismissed my question of which would you pick, a letter from Peter or a letter from Paul by saying, in an offhand, ‘of course, what a dumb question’ sort of way “they don’t contradict each other.”

I can dismiss it because you cannot name 12 things that are obviously contradictory within two epistles of the Bible… I can however (as you saw) name 12 things that are contradictory between the Bible and the BoM.

 

[zerinus]

I can dismiss it because you cannot name 12 things that are obviously contradictory within two epistles of the Bible… I can however (as you saw) name 12 things that are contradictory between the Bible and the BoM.

There is an active thread here at the moment started a Muslim called famdigy about some contradictions in the New Testament. Here is the link:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=358053

Ever heard of people living in glass-houses . . . ?

 

[Janet1983]

There is an active thread here at the moment started a Muslim called famdigy about some contradictions in the New Testament. Here is the link:

Ever heard of people living in glass-houses . . . ?

So? They have different accounts of what happened… You do (according to your own admission) accept the Bible as true too.
I do not accept the BoM. The Bible is not in dispute, because you as well as I believe its truthfulness. It is Joseph Smiths fairytale that we are disputing because it contradicts the Bible in serious matters.
The Mormon Jesus and the Jesus of the Bible are not the same and will never be as much as the Elohim guy is not God.
God has never been a man and He is almighty and He is Spirit, while this Elohim guy used to be a man… He was supposedly a good Mormon and then he became a god over his own planet… He didn’t even create the world himself, but told “Michael” and “Jehovah” to do so… Then he set “Michael” into the garden and made him forget who he was calling him Adam from then on…
That is just ridiculous… Your god is not a god and your Jesus was not conceived through the Holy Spirit, but through the Elohim guy having sex with an unwed, engaged virgin! How nice of him to break the commandments of God.

Here is your “First Day” of creation…

ELOHIM: Jehovah, Michael, see: yonder is matter unorganized, go ye down and organize it into a world like unto the other worlds we have hereunto formed. Call your labors the First Day, and bring me word.
JEHOVAH: It shall be done Elohim. Come Michael, let us go down.
MICHAEL: We will go down, Jehovah.
JEHOVAH: Michael, see: here is matter unorganized. We will organize it into a world like unto other worlds we have heretofore formed. We will call our labors the First Day, and return and report.
MICHAEL: We will return and report our labors of the First Day, Jehovah.
JEHOVAH: Elohim, we have done as thou hast commanded, and have called our labors the First Day.
ELOHIM: It is well.

And yes, your Jesus is a completely different person…
Gordon B. Hinckley stated that the Christ he believes in is not the same Christ as the one followed by those outside the LDS Church.
Hinckley quoted unnamed critics of the LDS Church who claim that Mormons do not believe in the traditional Christ and then he agreed with them.
Gordon B. Hinckley:

“In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ.’ ‘No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.’” (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7).

 

[MORMON_FAITH]

This conversation seems to me to have turned more into a personal speculation of the sacred scripture known as the book of mormon and not a subject that either individual has come to know about through prayer and faith as to the validity of the book of mormon. Doesn’t proverbs teach us ’ lean not unto thine own understanding’. There is a wonderful way to know more about the book of mormon and it is to gain your answers about it directly from your heavenly father by asking him in sincere prayer to know that it is true, after reading it and pondering the teachings of the savior that are found in its pages.

 

[kikkichan]

Hi,

Mormon Faith,

I see you’re very new to this forum. Welcome and good luck! You may find that lots of threads here deviate sharply from the original topics. For instance, this one started out quite simple,
Z:

…
Have any of you guys ever read the Book of Mormon?
…
how did you get it?
…
Why wasn’t it given a proper decent name?:shrug

All non-starters, really. But then threads take off and often result in a lot of pro and con chatter. Some very well presented and backed-up, and much of it surprisingly and maybe, even heroically, polite. Unfortunately, there’s a some without those qualities and your job is to sift through the mix. I’ve heard that LDS(s) abstain from alcohol–I hope you’ll be able to maintain that trait .

Meanwhile, the idea of “sincere prayer” whilst asking to know if the BOM is true, can be slippery. i.e., if the result is a feeling that the he BOM not true, is it because the BOM *really *is not true, or is it because the prayer wasn’t sincere?

–kc

This conversation seems to me to have turned more into a personal speculation of the sacred scripture known as the book of mormon and not a subject that either individual has come to know about through prayer and faith as to the validity of the book of mormon. Doesn’t proverbs teach us ’ lean not unto thine own understanding’. There is a wonderful way to know more about the book of mormon and it is to gain your answers about it directly from your heavenly father by asking him in sincere prayer to know that it is true, after reading it and pondering the teachings of the savior that are found in its pages.

 

[usemelord]

zerinus, I am responding to your post #479 which was in reply to my earlier invitation to any of the LDS contributors on this thread to pick one or the other, the Bible or the Book of Mormon. (I haven’t been ignoring you, just been very, very busy the last 24 hours.) Anyway, I was, once again, not surprised that I did not get a direct answer from you, just as our friend dianaiad skirted the question previously too. You promised that you would answer my question, but not before I answered yours which was to choose between the Gospel of Matthew or John if I were stranded on a desert island. O.K. I’ll play your little game. I love the whole Bible, every book has something valuable, but since you narrowed it down to Matthew and John, I’ll arbitrarily pick Matthew…no, John…no, Matthew. Oh heck, I can’t make up my mind. Matthew it is. That’s my final answer. There, I did it. I answered your question. Now it’s time for you to fulfill your promise and answer my original question: You have to pick one and only one. Which is it? The Bible or the Book of Mormon? And, please no equivocating.

 

[dianaiad]

I can dismiss it because you cannot name 12 things that are obviously contradictory within two epistles of the Bible… I can however (as you saw) name 12 things that are contradictory between the Bible and the BoM.

No, Janet. You listed things that YOU THINK contradict each other. I don’t think that they do. I didn’t even attempt to find similar contradictory things between Peter and Paul. Why? because at first glance there may seem to be some contradictory statements (if you look at their relative positions on faith, for instance) it becomes clear, after further study, that they are not contradictory.

 

[dianaiad]

So? They have different accounts of what happened… You do (according to your own admission) accept the Bible as true too.
I do not accept the BoM. The Bible is not in dispute, because you as well as I believe its truthfulness. It is Joseph Smiths fairytale that we are disputing because it contradicts the Bible in serious matters.
The Mormon Jesus and the Jesus of the Bible are not the same and will never be as much as the Elohim guy is not God.
God has never been a man and He is almighty and He is Spirit, while this Elohim guy used to be a man… He was supposedly a good Mormon and then he became a god over his own planet… He didn’t even create the world himself, but told “Michael” and “Jehovah” to do so… Then he set “Michael” into the garden and made him forget who he was calling him Adam from then on…
That is just ridiculous… Your god is not a god and your Jesus was not conceived through the Holy Spirit, but through the Elohim guy having sex with an unwed, engaged virgin! How nice of him to break the commandments of God.

Here is your “First Day” of creation…

And yes, your Jesus is a completely different person…
Gordon B. Hinckley stated that the Christ he believes in is not the same Christ as the one followed by those outside the LDS Church.
Hinckley quoted unnamed critics of the LDS Church who claim that Mormons do not believe in the traditional Christ and then he agreed with them.

You still aren’t getting it, Janet.

This isn’t about which book YOU would choose. We are quite aware that you don’t believe in the Book of Mormon. We are quite aware that you think that there are contradictions.

The question being shoved down our throats is which book WE would choose. The problem is, you are insisting that we use your standards and beliefs to make that decision, and that is illogical. We don’t believe as you do. We don’t believe that there are contradictions, and it doesn’t really matter what you think we believe.

The question is, which book would I choose? The answer is…I would not choose, for the same reason you would not choose between Peter and Paul.

I wonder why that is so difficult a concept?

 

[dianaiad]

zerinus, I am responding to your post #479 which was in reply to my earlier invitation to any of the LDS contributors on this thread to pick one or the other, the Bible or the Book of Mormon. (I haven’t been ignoring you, just been very, very busy the last 24 hours.) Anyway, I was, once again, not surprised that I did not get a direct answer from you, just as our friend dianaiad skirted the question previously too. You promised that you would answer my question, but not before I answered yours which was to choose between the Gospel of Matthew or John if I were stranded on a desert island. O.K. I’ll play your little game. I love the whole Bible, every book has something valuable, but since you narrowed it down to Matthew and John, I’ll arbitrarily pick Matthew…no, John…no, Matthew. Oh heck, I can’t make up my mind. Matthew it is. That’s my final answer. There, I did it. I answered your question. Now it’s time for you to fulfill your promise and answer my original question: You have to pick one and only one. Which is it? The Bible or the Book of Mormon? And, please no equivocating.

I did not ‘skirt’ the question. I answered it very directly. You were insisting upon a false dichotomy, sir, and the answer is…I would not choose. That IS a perfectly valid answer, even if you don’t like it, because it doesn’t allow you to carefully lead the conversation down the rhetorical trap you have laid.

 

[Janet1983]

I wonder why that is so difficult a concept?

Why? When 2 things are contradictory… (Jesus born in Bethlehem or in Jerusalem) then only one can be chosen as right. Everything else is simply illogical.
If you tell me He was born in Jerusalem you believe the BoM and if you tell me He was born in Bethlehem you believe the Bible.
Other possible solutions are:

1. Telling me that He was born somewhere else and not believing either.
2. Telling me that the BoM prophet (Alma) did not know the Geography of Israel and therefore chose to mention the known Jerusalem over the village of Bethlehem… making God look as if He was incompetent and couldn’t tell a prophet the right city…
   Am I actually getting through to you at all?

Do you even know what is at stake? Your soul is.
If I am wrong, I will go to Spirit Prison… There I can still become a Mormon and convert.
In the Millennium my name will show up and I will receive all the necessary rituals to become a goddess while my husband will become a god… well if not somebody else out of my family does it before that…
If I am right however I go to heaven and you go to hell. Why? Because you are guilty of the first Sin… PRIDE… you do not wish to accept the Almighty as the Alpha and Omega believing yourself capable to be His equal. You insult Him by downgrading His status to a human being and claim He is still progressing (according to popular teaching)… How does perfection progress? You mislead others to think like you do believing that hardly anyone goes to your outer darkness except the most vile of vile and the Telestial Kingdom is better than Earth even though it is the bottom rung where rapists, murderers, sorcerers, satanists, and thieves go. The sinful according to Mormon doctrine get it better than us here on Earth. The worst part is it all hangs on Joseph Smith’s word. I would seriously look at him closely through Mormon and Non-Mormon eyes before remotely believing anything he says. If you thought David Coresh or Jim Jones were a little unhinged you better open your eyes because there are no lawyers in heaven to defend you when God demands an explanation. There are no excuses before the Almighty. Hit your knees now and beg God for forgiveness for the Lord may come for you at any moment.

 

[zerinus]

zerinus, I am responding to your post #479 which was in reply to my earlier invitation to any of the LDS contributors on this thread to pick one or the other, the Bible or the Book of Mormon. (I haven’t been ignoring you, just been very, very busy the last 24 hours.) Anyway, I was, once again, not surprised that I did not get a direct answer from you, just as our friend dianaiad skirted the question previously too.

You mean like Jesus skirted the questions of the Pharisees?

You promised that you would answer my question, but not before I answered yours which was to choose between the Gospel of Matthew or John if I were stranded on a desert island. O.K. I’ll play your little game.

Well, Jesus didn’t think He was playing a game, and neither do I. I am quite serious!

I love the whole Bible, every book has something valuable, . . .

Thank you! I, too, love the whole of the standard works of the Church: the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearly of Great Price. Every book has something valuable, and all of them are equally the inspired word of God, no difference. Every book has something valuable . . .

. . . but since you narrowed it down to Matthew and John, I’ll arbitrarily pick Matthew…no, John…no, Matthew. Oh heck, I can’t make up my mind. Matthew it is. That’s my final answer. There, I did it. I answered your question. Now it’s time for you to fulfill your promise and answer my original question: You have to pick one and only one. Which is it? The Bible or the Book of Mormon? And, please no equivocating.

Thank you for answering my question! I promise you I will answer your question, but I need to draw this out a little bit more. Remember that Jesus also did not straight away answer the questions they put to Him. In fact, in one case He did not answer it at all!

So does your answer mean that you have no faith in the Gospel of John, or regard it as second rate, or of little or no worth?

My answer to the same question would have been to choose the Gospel of John! I find the Gospel of John more inspiring than the Gospel of Matthew, although Matthew gives us more cold facts and detail about the life of the Savior than John does. So if I chose John instead of Matthew, does that mean that your choice is better than mine? Would that make me a lesser Christian than you?

 

[Finrock]

Good evening Janet1983. It is a pleasure to meet you!

You were responding to dianaiad, but I hope you don’t mind if I share some of my thoughts and explanations concerning what you’ve written.

Why? When 2 things are contradictory… (Jesus born in Bethlehem or in Jerusalem) then only one can be chosen as right. Everything else is simply illogical.
If you tell me He was born in Jerusalem you believe the BoM and if you tell me He was born in Bethlehem you believe the Bible.

I wanted to point out that the scripture in the Book of Mormon that you feel is contradictory to the Bible, in actuality is not. Please consider the wording of the scripture in question:

“And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God” (Alma 7:10, Emphasis added).

With a simple reading of the text one would likely miss some key words which help to clarify what this verse means in regards to where Jesus would be born.

So, the first thing to note is that Jerusalem is referred to as a “land” not a city. Dictionary definition of “land” includes the ideas of “realm”, “domain”, or “country.” Jerusalem is being referenced here as a metropolis. In other words, Jerusalem is the chief city in that region. For instance, when I’m asked where I live, I generally tell people that I live in Detroit or the Detroit metro area. I actually live in a suburb of Detroit. But, because Detroit is the major city of the area I live in, I use Detroit because most people recognize Detroit and thus they have a general reference as to where I reside.

Now, the second thing to note is that the verse speaks of Jesus being born “at” Jerusalem as apposed to being born “in” Jerusalem. This is significant because “in” as a preposition is limited in it’s location of an occurence. On the other hand, “at” as a preposition can be used to indicate that some occurence happened near a particular place.

When you understand that Jerusalem as a land indicates a metropolis, with several outlying towns or villages, and that “at” can indicate an occurence near a place, then the apparent contradiction becomes clear. Certainly it can be said that Jesus was born in the Jerusalem “metro area”, near Jerusalem City.

(Some articles that deal with this more thoroughly can be found here and here.)

Am I actually getting through to you at all?

Do you even know what is at stake? Your soul is……Hit your knees now and beg God for forgiveness for the Lord may come for you at any moment.

The last portion of your post seems to indicate that you have misunderstood some of what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints actually teaches.

The Church doesn’t teach that God is “merely a human being”, but rather the Church teaches that He is the Supreme Ruler of the Universe. He is a perfect and glorified being. He is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. He has all power and all knowledge. He is perfectly good, perfectly just, and perfectly merciful. In fact, He posesses all good attributes in their perfection.

The Church also teaches that those who blaspheme against the Holy Spirit will ultimately inherit eternal darkness. These are people who have had the heavens opened unto them and who would crusify the Son of God, knowing perfectly who and what He is. Now, you made the curious comment that the “sinful” will inherit the Telestial kingdom. Insofar as I know, only one man who ever lived as a mortal on this earth was without sin, and that is Jesus Christ. So, we are all sinful. But, we do not inherit a kingdom of glory in our sins. Those who will inherit the Telestial kingdom will have to suffer the consequences of their choices. Because they did not accept the atonement, they will pay the price of their sins and suffer in hell, but not forever. Once the “debt” has been paid, they still cannot inherit all the Father has, but will receive the portion of God’s glory they accepted during mortality. We don’t believe God is a torturer or vengeful. He is just, and so justice must have its due, but He is also merciful, and so the maximum amount of mercy that can be applied, will be applied.

My church has taught me that Jesus Christ is our Savior and Redeemer. It has taught me that He is my God and that I should worship and adore Him. In my church, I have made sacred covenants to follow Jesus and to dedicate my all to Him. The teachings and doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ have lead me to Jesus and through various experiences, I have come to know where my salvation is found. My faith in salvation is not in Joseph Smith, but it is in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is my Savior. As I’ve pleaded for mercy and forgiveness, I have felt the peace and joy that comes from applying the atonement in my life. I have a hope of salvation because of my faith in Jesus. Jesus is my God and I worship Him, I adore Him, and I strive to be the person that He wants me be, because* I want* to do those things He has commanded. I love Him. I have no doubt in the path that I have chosen to follow, because this path has been and is leading me to the One True God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Kind Regards,
Finrock