The Book of Mormon... have you read it?

[evanfaust]

Hi evanfaust -

How long did the whole process take of translating/transcribing the books?

Virtually all of the English text of the Book of Mormon was then translated between April 7 and the last week of June, less than sixty working days.

Where were the golden plates kept while not in use?

The plates were hidden in many different places, since many people were trying to take them away from the prophet. These are two of the many different places the plates were hidden.

“After receiving the plates at the hill, the Prophet hid them nearby in a hollow birch log whose tough bark had resisted the forces of decay better than the wood itself. Cutting a hole in the bark and peeling it back, he placed the plates in the cavity of the log thus exposed, then replaced the bark and “laid across the log in several places some old stuff that happened to lie near, in order to conceal, as much as possible, the place in which they were deposited.”

“…Accounts vary as to what Joseph did next, but it seems that he hid the plates, still housed in the same box, under the floor of a cooper’s shop located just across the road. 30 After a “short time,” Joseph dug them up yet again, removed the plates from their box, reburied the box, and hid the plates—now wrapped in some clothing—in “a quantity of flax” being stored in the shop’s loft”

For more detail please read:

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=a2b5a1615ac0c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

Did JS and OC work together on this project the whole time or were there times JS was on his own?

There were many scribes that assisted Joseph in the translation. For example, his wife Emma Smith, Emma’s brother, Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and other Whitmers.

Did Joseph have job at the time?

As far as I know during the main time of translation, April though end of June, Joseph worked full time on the translation.

What are Nephite interpreters?

The same as Urim and Thummim, which is also described in the Bible.

Since Oliver Cowdery was involved in the writing of the BoM why is he not as famous as Joseph Smith? Is he considered a prophet as well?

Oliver Cowdery is famous! All those who study Mormonism will become very acquainted with Oliver Cowdery. He also received revelation along with Joseph, he became the second man in the Church untill 1838,

Why did he fall away from the Mormon church?

One of the reasons is because he opposed plural marriage. On April 12, 1838, a church court excommunicated Cowdery after he failed to appear at a hearing on his membership and sent a letter resigning from the Church instead.

 

[lax16]

Virtually all of the English text of the Book of Mormon was then translated between April 7 and the last week of June, less than sixty working days.

The plates were hidden in many different places, since many people were trying to take them away from the prophet. These are two of the many different places the plates were hidden.

“After receiving the plates at the hill, the Prophet hid them nearby in a hollow birch log whose tough bark had resisted the forces of decay better than the wood itself. Cutting a hole in the bark and peeling it back, he placed the plates in the cavity of the log thus exposed, then replaced the bark and “laid across the log in several places some old stuff that happened to lie near, in order to conceal, as much as possible, the place in which they were deposited.”

“…Accounts vary as to what Joseph did next, but it seems that he hid the plates, still housed in the same box, under the floor of a cooper’s shop located just across the road. 30 After a “short time,” Joseph dug them up yet again, removed the plates from their box, reburied the box, and hid the plates—now wrapped in some clothing—in “a quantity of flax” being stored in the shop’s loft”

For more detail please read:

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=a2b5a1615ac0c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

There were many scribes that assisted Joseph in the translation. For example, his wife Emma Smith, Emma’s brother, Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and other Whitmers.

As far as I know during the main time of translation, April though end of June, Joseph worked full time on the translation.

The same as Urim and Thummim, which is also described in the Bible.

Oliver Cowdery is famous! All those who study Mormonism will become very acquainted with Oliver Cowdery. He also received revelation along with Joseph, he became the second man in the Church untill 1838,

One of the reasons is because he opposed plural marriage. On April 12, 1838, a church court excommunicated Cowdery after he failed to appear at a hearing on his membership and sent a letter resigning from the Church instead.

Thanks evanfaust.

There was just one question that was missed. Is Oliver Cowdery considered a prophet?

thanks!

 

[evanfaust]

Thanks evanfaust.

There was just one question that was missed. Is Oliver Cowdery considered a prophet?

thanks!

lax,

He is considered a prophet, since he was an apostle. Every apostle is a prophet, since they are entitled to revelation. He was ordained an apostle by the hands of Peter, James and John in 1829. Oliver for eight years was the second man in the Church, and if Joseph had died earlier, he would have been the person continuing the restoration.

Ordained an apostle by Peter, James, and John: May 1829 (age 22)

Second Elder of the Church: 6 April 1830

Assistant President of the Church: 5 December 1834 to 11 April 1838

Assistant counselor to President Joseph Smith: 3 September 1837

Excommunicated: 12 April 1838

Rebaptized: 12 November 1848

Died: 3 March 1850 (age 43), Richmond, Missouri

"He stood next to the Prophet and jointly held the keys of the kingdom as assistant president of the Church. His experiences included witnessing the coming of heavenly messengers in the Kirtland Temple, among whom were Moses, Elias, Elijah, and even the Lord Jesus Christ. "

"During the decade he spent outside the Church, Oliver never denied the truth of the manifestations he had experienced; in fact, he often bore witness of their authenticity."

" David Whitmer, another disaffected witness of the Book of Mormon, living in Richmond at the time, later recalled: "Oliver died the happiest man I ever saw, after shaking hands with the family and kissing his wife and daughter, he said, ‘Now I lay me down for the last time, I am going to my Savior;’ and he died immediately, with a smile on his face."

 

[lax16]

lax,

He is considered a prophet, since he was an apostle. Every apostle is a prophet, since they are entitled to revelation. He was ordained an apostle by the hands of Peter, James and John in 1829. Oliver for eight years was the second man in the Church, and if Joseph had died earlier, he would have been the person continuing the restoration.

Ordained an apostle by Peter, James, and John: May 1829 (age 22)

Second Elder of the Church: 6 April 1830

Assistant President of the Church: 5 December 1834 to 11 April 1838

Assistant counselor to President Joseph Smith: 3 September 1837

Excommunicated: 12 April 1838

Rebaptized: 12 November 1848

Died: 3 March 1850 (age 43), Richmond, Missouri

"He stood next to the Prophet and jointly held the keys of the kingdom as assistant president of the Church. His experiences included witnessing the coming of heavenly messengers in the Kirtland Temple, among whom were Moses, Elias, Elijah, and even the Lord Jesus Christ. "

"During the decade he spent outside the Church, Oliver never denied the truth of the manifestations he had experienced; in fact, he often bore witness of their authenticity."

" David Whitmer, another disaffected witness of the Book of Mormon, living in Richmond at the time, later recalled: "Oliver died the happiest man I ever saw, after shaking hands with the family and kissing his wife and daughter, he said, ‘Now I lay me down for the last time, I am going to my Savior;’ and he died immediately, with a smile on his face."

thanks evanfaust!

 

[why_me]

lax,

He is considered a prophet, since he was an apostle. Every apostle is a prophet, since they are entitled to revelation. He was ordained an apostle by the hands of Peter, James and John in 1829. Oliver for eight years was the second man in the Church, and if Joseph had died earlier, he would have been the person continuing the restoration.

Ordained an apostle by Peter, James, and John: May 1829 (age 22)

Second Elder of the Church: 6 April 1830

Assistant President of the Church: 5 December 1834 to 11 April 1838

Assistant counselor to President Joseph Smith: 3 September 1837

Excommunicated: 12 April 1838

Rebaptized: 12 November 1848

Died: 3 March 1850 (age 43), Richmond, Missouri

"He stood next to the Prophet and jointly held the keys of the kingdom as assistant president of the Church. His experiences included witnessing the coming of heavenly messengers in the Kirtland Temple, among whom were Moses, Elias, Elijah, and even the Lord Jesus Christ. "

"During the decade he spent outside the Church, Oliver never denied the truth of the manifestations he had experienced; in fact, he often bore witness of their authenticity."

" David Whitmer, another disaffected witness of the Book of Mormon, living in Richmond at the time, later recalled: "Oliver died the happiest man I ever saw, after shaking hands with the family and kissing his wife and daughter, he said, ‘Now I lay me down for the last time, I am going to my Savior;’ and he died immediately, with a smile on his face."

You forgot to mention that when oliver was dying his family (wife and daughter) and friends gathered around him and Oliver bore his testimony about the book of momron. And then, he died peacefully with a smile on this face.

Question: why would oliver lie to his daughter and wife about the book of mormon when he was about to die? Answer: he wouldn’t.

 

[Zundrah]

The catholic church does not believe itself to be the only true church? I think that you got that wrong. And what is the message of christ that the mormons do not have?

The Catholic Church doesn’t teach that salvation does not exist outside of it.

The message we have that mornons do not have is that God came down in human form and died for us.

 

[lax16]

You forgot to mention that when oliver was dying his family (wife and daughter) and friends gathered around him and Oliver bore his testimony about the book of momron. And then, he died peacefully with a smile on this face.

Question: why would oliver lie to his daughter and wife about the book of mormon when he was about to die? Answer: he wouldn’t.

You think people haven’t gone to their death bed with secrets? Why would he tell his wife and daughter right before he was going to die? They would have to live with the humiliation and deal with all of the angry people that had been lied to.

I can think of several people that I know that went to their death beds and did not say what their loved ones were hoping they would!

Didn’t Cowdery confess to a Spaulding (?) that it was a hoax?

correction: the confession was to Judge W. Lang. Spaulding was the author of Manuscript Found.

 

[barnesms]

You think people haven’t gone to their death bed with secrets? Why would he tell his wife and daughter right before he was going to die? They would have to live with the humiliation and deal with all of the angry people that had been lied to.

I can think of several people that I know that went to their death beds and did not say what their loved ones were hoping they would!

Didn’t Cowdery confess to a Spaulding (?) that it was a hoax?

correction: the confession was to Judge W. Lang. Spaulding was the author of Manuscript Found.

I think you are referring to a letter purportedly written by Lang some thirty years after the death of Oliver Cowdery. To my understanding, this letter has now been “lost”. The letter is viewed to be highly suspect given Lang’s earlier writings about his respect for Cowdery, and Cowdery’s loyal feelings to the LDS Church and to the Book of Mormon itself. Unfortunately, the letter does not exist to prove or disprove its suspected forgery.

One thing is certain, Cowdery on his death bed was genuinely committed to the teachings of the Book of Mormon. It is recorded that he stated, just before breathing his last, and after having asked his attendants to raise him up in bed that he might talk to the family and his friends, who were present. He then told them to live according to the teachings contained in the Book of Mormon, and promised them, if they would do this, that they would meet him in heaven. He then said, ‘Lay me down and let me fall asleep.’ A few moments later he died without a struggle.

Lang’s letter is not viewed by historians or scholars as being reliable; however, it remains an interesting tid-bit on anti-Mormon websites.

May the Holy Spirit guide us all today.

 

[AtticusFinch]

I think you are referring to a letter purportedly written by Lang some thirty years after the death of Oliver Cowdery. To my understanding, this letter has now been “lost”. The letter is viewed to be highly suspect given Lang’s earlier writings about his respect for Cowdery, and Cowdery’s loyal feelings to the LDS Church and to the Book of Mormon itself. Unfortunately, the letter does not exist to prove or disprove its suspected forgery.

One thing is certain, Cowdery on his death bed was genuinely committed to the teachings of the Book of Mormon. It is recorded that he stated, just before breathing his last, and after having asked his attendants to raise him up in bed that he might talk to the family and his friends, who were present. He then told them to live according to the teachings contained in the Book of Mormon, and promised them, if they would do this, that they would meet him in heaven. He then said, ‘Lay me down and let me fall asleep.’ A few moments later he died without a struggle.

Lang’s letter is not viewed by historians or scholars as being reliable; however, it remains an interesting tid-bit on anti-Mormon websites.

May the Holy Spirit guide us all today.

I believe you mean no LDS historian or scholar views it as reliable

 

[shelby2014]

Unfortunately, the letter does not exist to prove or disprove its suspected forgery.
.

Interesting, I believe that is the same point many in this discussion have been making about the BOM.

 

[AtticusFinch]

Interesting, I believe that is the same point many in this discussion have been making about the BOM.

Perhaps, what you meant was that no LDS Historian or Scholar accepts it is valid…

 

[barnesms]

Perhaps, what you meant was that no LDS Historian or Scholar accepts it is valid…

No, I meant no reputable historian or scholar views is reliable (their religion is irrelevant). However, as I indicated, about the only place this story finds repetition is anti-Mormon literature. As with all anti-religion type information, that “literature” is not based upon facts but misinformation, sensationalism, etc. I am sure you have read anti-Catholic literature and understand exactly what I mean.

 

[evanfaust]

You think people haven’t gone to their death bed with secrets? Why would he tell his wife and daughter right before he was going to die? They would have to live with the humiliation and deal with all of the angry people that had been lied to.

I can think of several people that I know that went to their death beds and did not say what their loved ones were hoping they would!

Didn’t Cowdery confess to a Spaulding (?) that it was a hoax?

correction: the confession was to Judge W. Lang. Spaulding was the author of Manuscript Found.

lax,

"Many critics of the Book of Mormon reject the Spaulding theory as unworkable:

Davis H. Bays, The Doctrines and Dogmas of Mormonism Examined and Refuted, (St. Louis: Christian Publishing, 1897), 22, 25

[This theory is] “erroneous, and it will lead to almost certain defeat… The facts are all opposed to this view, and the defenders of the Mormon dogma have the facts well in hand… The Spaulding story is a failure. Do not attempt to rely upon it — it will let you down.”

Fawn Brodie, No Man Knows My History (New York, A. A. Knopf, 1945), 453

“*The tenuous chain of evidence accumulated to support the Spaulding-Rigdon theory breaks altogether when it tries to prove that Rigdon met Joseph Smith before 1830.” *

Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Did Spaulding Write the Book of Mormon? (Salt Lake City: Utah Lighthouse Ministry, 1977).

One might ask the question: If Mormonism’s most prominent critics find the Spalding theory unworkable, then what motivates those who tenuously hold to this theory and continue to pursue it? Those that continue to promote this theory have not effectively dealt with the major objections highlighted by other anti-Mormon critics."

Sidney Rigdon to his son John, just prior to Sidney’s death

"My father, after I had finished saying what I have repeated above, looked at me a moment, raised his hand above his head and slowly said, with tears glistening in his eyes: “My son, I can swear before high heaven that what I have told you about the origin of [the Book of Mormon] is true. Your mother and sister, Mrs. Athalia Robinson, were present when that book was handed to me in Mentor, Ohio, and all I ever knew about the origin of [the Book of Mormon] was what Parley P. Pratt, Oliver Cowdery, Joseph Smith and the witnesses who claimed they saw the plates have told me, and in all of my intimacy with Joseph Smith he never told me but one story.”

en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Authorship_theories/Spalding_manuscript

 

[why_me]

You think people haven’t gone to their death bed with secrets? Why would he tell his wife and daughter right before he was going to die? They would have to live with the humiliation and deal with all of the angry people that had been lied to.

I can think of several people that I know that went to their death beds and did not say what their loved ones were hoping they would!

We need to remember what happened before his deathbed testimony. Oliver came back to the church with his wife and child. Now lax, oliver could have made a fortune if he would have come clean about the mormon church. And he did need money. When he left the church and eventually faced financial difficulty, one good book about the con would have made him rich and a hero for many. And if there were a con, he would have done so because he had nothing to lose. Imagine the impact of oliver writing such a book! The lds church would have collasped like a house of cards. But instead, we have him coming back to the lds church and restate his testimony to the lds members and to his family on his deathbed and goes to meet his maker happy and peaceful.

 

[zaffiroborant]

We need to remember what happened before his deathbed testimony. Oliver came back to the church with his wife and child. Now lax, oliver could have made a fortune if he would have come clean about the mormon church. And he did need money. When he left the church and eventually faced financial difficulty, one good book about the con would have made him rich and a hero for many. And if there were a con, he would have done so because he had nothing to lose. Imagine the impact of oliver writing such a book! The lds church would have collasped like a house of cards. But instead, we have him coming back to the lds church and restate his testimony to the lds members and to his family on his deathbed and goes to meet his maker happy and peaceful.

You’re speculating here and presenting it as fact.

 

[Answersplease]

Well, it would be nice to get a look at the source document and the cypher (I’m quite aware I’ve made this point before, I just felt it deserved repeating). I mean, that is traditionally how “translation” is done. This argument might make a little more sense if this really was a translation. However, he used the Urim and Thummin. I heard a lot of stories as a young person in the LDS, none which came close to matching the very specific description in the Old Testament. In the Bible these were used to cast lots. Did Joseph Smith cast lots to come up with his translation?

I promised myself I wouldn’t engage anymore, but really, this slow pitch was too much to resist.

Michael

Answersplease:

It looks like your post was ignored.

Probably because they can’t answer it.

 

[AtticusFinch]

We need to remember what happened before his deathbed testimony. Oliver came back to the church with his wife and child. Now lax, oliver could have made a fortune if he would have come clean about the mormon church. And he did need money. When he left the church and eventually faced financial difficulty, one good book about the con would have made him rich and a hero for many. And if there were a con, he would have done so because he had nothing to lose. Imagine the impact of oliver writing such a book! The lds church would have collasped like a house of cards. But instead, we have him coming back to the lds church and restate his testimony to the lds members and to his family on his deathbed and goes to meet his maker happy and peaceful.

Actually, if Oliver had come clean, or if any of “the witnesses” had come clean, they would have faced prosecution and many, many lawsuits. It was in their best interest to NOT come clean

 

[evanfaust]

Actually, if Oliver had come clean, or if any of “the witnesses” had come clean, they would have faced prosecution and many, many lawsuits. It was in their best interest to NOT come clean

Even at the moment of his death? What persecution could he face at his last breath?

 

[SirThomasMore]

Even at the moment of his death? What persecution could he face at his last breath?

Can you, for a minute, just close your eyes and imagine the horrible persecution his family would have had to endure if he had come clean? His estate could have been sued and any belongings his family had would have been lost. What kind of man would want his family to go thru that?

And that does not even include how his friends would have been prosecuted and sued.

Would you want your friends to go through that?

I certainly wouldn’t. And I doubt seriously Oliver would have wanted that.

 

[lax16]

We need to remember what happened before his deathbed testimony. Oliver came back to the church with his wife and child. Now lax, **oliver could **have made a fortune if he would have come clean about the mormon church. And he did need money. When he left the church and eventually faced financial difficulty, one good book about the con would have made him rich and a hero for many. And if there were a con, he would have done so because he had nothing to lose. Imagine the impact of oliver writing such a book! The lds church would have collasped like a house of cards. But instead, we have him coming back to the lds church and restate his testimony to the lds members and to his family on his deathbed and goes to meet his maker happy and peaceful.

Did people write and sell books back then for money like they do now?

How many people were there that would have bought books re: Mormonism?

Was there a nationwide interest in Mormonism that would have made the book a best-seller at a time when people were not buying books? Why would Oliver Cowdery or anyone around him think there was money to be made in his story?

**From the Introduction to Uncle Tom’s Cabin by Harriet Beecher Stowe: **

When Calvin Stowe negotiated *Uncle Tom’s * contract on his wife’s behalf, he confided to the publishers that **he hoped the novel would be successful enough so that his wife ****could buy a “good black silk dress”. **The novel turned out, of course, to be far more successful than that. Within the first week of publicaton, *Uncle Tom’s Cabin * sold 10,000 copies, within its first year, 300,000 **(this in a nation with a total population of ****only 24 million). ***Uncle Tom’s Cabin *was the first American novel to sell more than a million copies, and no book of any kind, except for the Bible, had ever sold so well. Astonishing as the sales figures are, even they fail to suggest the full extent of Uncle Tom’s popularity. **For the book was published in an era when novels were still ****treated as a kind of communal property, borrowed from circulating libraries, passed ****from hand to hand, read aloud to entire households at a time; **knowing this, one reviewer speculated that *Uncle Tom *had ten readers for every copy sold.

This excerpt from the Intro explains very well that **people were not **writing books with the idea of getting rich and that because of the library system people were not buying books, they shared them. (And Harriet Beecher Stowe was an award-winning writer by the time she wrote Uncle Tom’s Cabin).

The book was written in 1850.
When did Oliver Cowdery die? What a coincidence! 1850.