The Book of Mormon

[hosemonkey]

For those of you who are exasperated by Zerinus’ ignorance and tenacity, you must remember that he is posessed by an evil spirit(Mormonism) and is most likely powerless to behave otherwise. I believe that the only effective remedy for him and those like him is an exorcism by a very righteous and powerful priest. Therefore, I think that Father Corapi should be assigned to take on Zerinus’ case. If you all agree, I’ll see if I can get Father Corapi to accept the job.

 

[zerinus]

I personally trust the testimonies contained in the Bible because I have received a witness by the grace of God, that they are true. You understand that part, right?

Sure I do. Glad to hear it. And I can also assure you that I have received the same witness not only about the Bible, but also the Book of Mormon.

Ok, I think I understand what you’re asking of me. I can’t prove their claims about Jesus, but at least I know that the people who made those claims, actually existed! There is verifiable evidence for many of the accounts about people and places in the Bible. Are you here to argue that as well?

I do! That may be true of some of them, but not of all of them. I gave you a long list. I hope you are not asking me to repeat them all over again in here.

It’s quite a stretch to believe in the claims of the BOM, when,

1. I don’t have the witness of God that it is his word,

That I can understand. But don’t try to tell me that you have received a witness that it is not God’s word, because I happen to know that it is.

1. there is absolutely zero evidence that the people who supposedly wrote the BOM even existed,

Well, that is not quite true. Everyone knows that the inhabitants of ancient America had built a great civilization, whose monuments remain to this day. We believe that these are the remains of the Book of Mormon people. It is just that a clear link between them and the Book of Mormon has not yet been established, which is understandable given their violent history, their subsequent apostasy and extreme wickedness, and the fact that their language has not yet been completely understood. If you can give me an explanation as to why there is no trace of Israelites having ever lived in Egypt, I will also give you an explanation for why there is not, or does not appear to be (at the present time) a clear link between the ruins of the ancient American civilizations and the Book of Mormon.

1. the evidence we do have (DNA) actually goes against the claims of the BOM.

And I also showed you that if that was a reliable test, it should be able to prove that all mankind descended from one man, Noah. But it does not. So you must conclude that either the test is not reliable, or else that the Bible is not true. So which conclusion do you draw?

I gave my experience. You keep telling everyone here that if we will read the BOM and pray about it, we will all know it is true.

Actually I don’t recall having said it quite like that to anyone; and not said it very often either. When I do say it, I usually add a qualifying comment to it.

I did. It isn’t. I don’t know why you think your answer is the correct answer and mine is the incorrect answer!

I don’t think that you have received an answer, period. I think you are equating no answer with a negative answer.

Oh, this is rich. “Moroni’s” promise is: if you read the BOM with full intent, and pray to God to know the truthfulness of it, you will know by his power that the book is true. Well, I did that not only once, but many, many, many times, over a period of fifteen years! And now because you learn that I never received the “yes” answer, you have the gall to say I didn’t get an answer at all? Is this what you tell everyone when they don’t get the same answer as you?

Well, yes! It isn’t a question of “getting the same answer as me”. It is a fact that I know the book is true; and God will not testify to anyone that it isn’t when it is.

I only know what God has done in my life. He has led me home. I am in awe of God, and what He has done in my life.

Well good luck to you. I wish you well in your journey too. I think you are sincere. That is more than can be said about many former LDS who have become Catholics.

zerinus

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Excuse this boy/girl Zerinus, everyone! Since “Zerinus” is a tag team of motley Mormon mumblers out to ‘pin’ Christians to their skewered view of history and Truth, it may well be that this Zerinus did not say that to truthsilence.

Oh no, when an attack comes it is usually followed by how evil and condemned we Christians are in God’s view and how we ‘apostasized’ centuries ago!

Take note, :whacky: , you cannot prove a negative. There is no “proof” according to your standards that Queen Elizabeth I ever lived, that Julius Caesar visited Alexandria, that Marconi invented the radio, that the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth, that Lincoln played the harmonica or any other countless UNOBSERVED historical realities that Zerinus and his Krew of Zulu didn’t have the testimony of the Holy Spirit to back them up.

 

[kellie]

Well, yes! It isn’t a question of “getting the same answer as me”. It is a fact that I know the book is true; and God will not testify to anyone that it isn’t when it is.

Hi zerinus,

I am just wondering if you think it is at all possible that Satan can appear to be God in a situation like this, so when we are looking for an answer such as whether the BOM is true, Satan will say it is true, and deceive us, and make us think it is God that has answered.

Do you think that is at all possible?

 

[zerinus]

Hi zerinus,

I am just wondering if you think it is at all possible that Satan can appear to be God in a situation like this, so when we are looking for an answer such as whether the BOM is true, Satan will say it is true, and deceive us, and make us think it is God that has answered.

Do you think that is at all possible?

The answer to that question is given in these verses:

Luke 11:

9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

If the almighty God cannot protect His own channel of communication with mankind from Satanic influence, when they approach Him in faith for divine guidance in obedience to His own commandments, then woe betides all of us.

zerinus

 

[Allweather]

If the almighty God cannot protect His own channel of communication with mankind from Satanic influence, when they approach Him in faith for divine guidance in obedience to His own commandments, then woe betides all of us.

zerinus

Seems to me, you’ve just argued persuasively in favor of the Catholic position with regard to Mt 16 and Jesus’ statement that the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church he founded.

If it were really true that individuals, without reference to the Church, would get clear leading through prayer by the Holy Spirit, then there would be no multiplicity of churches. There wouldn’t be hundreds of sects among Mormons, or among Protestants. There would be just the One Church, because we do know that Jesus prayed fervently that we should all be one, even as he and the Father are one.

Where do we find that One Church? Hint: Hq in Rome.

 

[truthsilence]

Quote:
Originally Posted by kellie
Hi zerinus,

I am just wondering if you think it is at all possible that Satan can appear to be God in a situation like this, so when we are looking for an answer such as whether the BOM is true, Satan will say it is true, and deceive us, and make us think it is God that has answered.

Do you think that is at all possible?

The answer to that question is given in these verses:

Luke 11:

9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

If the almighty God cannot protect His own channel of communication with mankind from Satanic influence, when they approach Him in faith for divine guidance in obedience to His own commandments, then woe betides all of us.

zerinus

Whenever I pray to God for these types of answers, I always ask that God please not allow me to be deceived by the devil. I believe that is the very reason I never received a testimony of the BOM. Add to that, when I finally accepted the possibility that the BOM was not true, and realized I needed to search again to find God’s church, God literally whispered to my soul, not in an audible voice, but directly to my soul: “Go to the Catholic church”. The Catholic church was not even on my “radar”. It was the last place I would have thought to go.

You don’t have to answer this Zerinus, but did you ask God for this exact protection when you prayed to know about the BOM?

Please don’t jump all over me. If you don’t want to answer, just don’t answer.

Thank you for your well wishes. Peace be with you.

 

[Javy]

Wow! What a thread. I thought I had a clear understanding of Mormonism, but I have to thank Zerinus for taking the time and proving that Mormonism is as bizarre as Gnosticism.

 

[zerinus]

Whenever I pray to God for these types of answers, I always ask that God please not allow me to be deceived by the devil. I believe that is the very reason I never received a testimony of the BOM.

That is another way of saying that you didn’t want God to give you the answer that He wanted to give, but the answer that you wanted to hear. That is why you never received any. Let me remind you of another verse in the Bible:

James 1:

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Add to that, when I finally accepted the possibility that the BOM was not true, and realized I needed to search again to find God’s church, God literally whispered to my soul, not in an audible voice, but directly to my soul: “Go to the Catholic church”. The Catholic church was not even on my “radar”. It was the last place I would have thought to go.

I can quite believe that. It is possible for the devil to intervene, and answer instead of God; but that only happens when we approach God in the wrong way—when we “waver,” dilly dally, are hesitant and uncertain, and want to receive our own answer rather than God’s. As James said, “A double minded man is unstable in all his ways” and “let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord”. When we persistently approach God in the wrong way, He persistently refuses to answer. When God refuses to answer, the devil will.

You don’t have to answer this Zerinus, but did you ask God for this exact protection when you prayed to know about the BOM?

Two answers to that. First of all, I didn’t need to pray to God at all, to know if the Book of Mormon is true. When I read it, I knew instantly that it was true. The Spirit of the Lord bore witness to me that it was true. That is the promise that we have received from the Lord:

John 16:

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 7:

17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

If your heart is in the right place, if you sincerely desire to know the truth, and not just what you want to hear, and if you approach God with confidence, without hesitation or “wavering,” but with sincerity of heart and in good faith, the truth will be made to you without you having to ask. Secondly, I refer you to all the scriptural passages I have quoted earlier (Luke 11:9-13; James 1:5-8; John 16:13; John 7:17). There is not one instance in any of them that says, or even implies, that one should first ask God’s protection from the wrong answer, before asking for His right answer. That is a sign of hesitation, double mindedness, wavering, and lack of good faith and genuine confidence in God to answer a prayer. As James said: “For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.”

You have asked me several questions, and I have answered them for you. Now I would like to ask you a question: During the time that you were a member of the LDS Church, how many times did you actually read the Book of Mormon all the way through, from the beginning to the end? I am interested to know your answer to that question.

Please don’t jump all over me. If you don’t want to answer, just don’t answer.

I am not sure what that is supposed to mean.

Thank you for your well wishes. Peace be with you.

You are very welcome.

zerinus

 

[colliric]

I can quite believe that. It is possible for the devil to intervene, and answer instead of God; but that only happens when we approach God in the wrong way—when we “waver,” dilly dally, are hesitant and uncertain, and want to receive our own answer rather than God’s. As James said, “A double minded man is unstable in all his ways” and “let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord”. When we persistently approach God in the wrong way, He persistently refuses to answer. When God refuses to answer, the devil will.

Touche, that argument can also apply to the mormon belief that the holy ghost is telling them “the book of mormon is true”. Catholics don’t accept the book of mormon, not on the basis of the holy spirit telling them not too, but because of catholic traditional examinations of Apocalypse(or Revelation) 22:18 and other bible passages like when Jesus warned of false prophets to come in the future.

These two passages very clearly warn about altering the bible and cautiously accepting other books, like the BOM, or as you guys like to call it, “the 3rd testament of Jesus Christ” as holy scripture.

The BOM is a very clear addition to scripture by Joseph Smith alone. Therefore as the Bible says, we must be careful with it, especially placing it on equal level with the book of Apocalypse(I like using the old school name)or other books of the bible.

 

[zerinus]

Touche, that argument can also apply to the mormon belief that the holy ghost is telling them “the book of mormon is true”. Catholics don’t accept the book of mormon, not on the basis of the holy spirit telling them not too, but because of catholic traditional examinations of Apocalypse(or Revelation) 22:18 and other bible passages like when Jesus warned of false prophets to come in the future.

These two passages very clearly warn about altering the bible and cautiously accepting other books, like the BOM, or as you guys like to call it, “the 3rd testament of Jesus Christ” as holy scripture.

The BOM is a very clear addition to scripture by Joseph Smith alone. Therefore as the Bible says, we must be careful with it, especially placing it on equal level with the book of Apocalypse(I like using the old school name)or other books of the bible.

It is the characteristic of all false and apostate religions to claim that the canon of scripture is closed, and there will be no more scripture or revelation from God. Because they do not have the divine authority to obtain further revelation from the Lord, and add to the canon of scripture themselves, they try to hide their illegitimacy by claiming that it cannot be done at all! The Jews say it, the Moslems say it, and Catholics say the same thing. That is an awfully wicked and sinful thing to say, leading astray the rest of mankind, for which there will be heavy punishment in the world to come. The truth, however, is that whenever an old religion has apostatized, God has rectified it by opened up a new dispensation of the gospel through a prophet whom He has raised up for that purpose, and which has always been accompanied by additional scripture and revelation from God; and this dispensation is no different.

zerinus

 

[majick275]

I can quite believe that. It is possible for the devil to intervene, and answer instead of God; but that only happens when we approach God in the wrong way—when we “waver,” dilly dally, are hesitant and uncertain, and want to receive our own answer rather than God’s. As James said, “A double minded man is unstable in all his ways” and “let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord”. When we persistently approach God in the wrong way, He persistently refuses to answer. When God refuses to answer, the devil will.

yet this is exactly what happened to Joseph Smith according to LDS scripture. (JS-H verse 15)
So why would we think Joseph wasn’t deceived by Satan appearing as an angel of light? the answer would have to be by comparing his message with scripture. zerinus/amgid/paul g,etc. has told us time and again that in spite of LDS prophets and apostles telling us all kinds of strange doctrine that only the ones that are in canonized scripture are binding. So when Joseph was revealing doctrine then only that which agreed with the existing canon would be valid until the canon was changed and even then the only valid changes would be those that were canonized. So since Joseph Smith “revealed” doctrines that are contrary to the Bible and those same doctrines/practices still aren’t backed by canonized mormon scripture during his lifetime then we have to see him as the type of “teacher” described in 2 Peter. Therefore his message is false. Believe it not.

 

[Jerusha]

Good thread.

 

[Allweather]

Because they do not have the divine authority to obtain further revelation from the Lord, and add to the canon of scripture themselves, they try to hide their illegitimacy by claiming that it cannot be done at all! The Jews say it, the Moslems say it, and Catholics say the same thing. That is an awfully wicked and sinful thing to say, leading astray the rest of mankind, for which there will be heavy punishment in the world to come. zerinus

Actually, the facts from history are very different than what you are suggesting. Far from “leading astray the rest of mankind” the closed canons of the Jews and the Christians have enabled that Judeo-Christian religion to survive persecution and diaspora.

Christianity preserved culture and learning during the collapse of the Roman Empire, and managed to convert the barbarians and other invaders over to Christianity, from being nomadic rapists and plunderers, to being farmers and city dwellers. Christianity converted the savages of America to Christianity, and motivated the founders of the U.S. who told the world that All Men Are Created Equal and are Endowed By Their Creator with Inalienable Rights. It wasn’t Mormonism that informs us of this, Mormonism which sees women as breeders and servants.

It is hard to see the effects of this “awfully wicked and sinful thing” that Zerinus and his Mormon Cadre are claiming is present in the world in the form of “apostate” Christianity and Judaism. In fact, it is much easier to see the effects of it in Mormonism, with its hundreds of polygamous sects, where little girls are married to fat, ugly old men, and people dream of becoming gods.

 

[Jerusha]

Christianity converted the savages of America to Christianity

That is offensive. Many of the techniques used in the conversion process were just as henious as those of the worst of Mormons and Muslims. Do you really think Catholics never perpetuated injustices?

Have you ever read Bartolome de las Casas?

Broaden your perspective, please, and check out the “facts of history” before making statements to that effect.

Perhaps, if you would, you might be able to understand what I believe constitutes the Mormon claim for “apostasy”

 

[artist3189]

Well, that is not quite true. Everyone knows that the inhabitants of ancient America had built a great civilization, whose monuments remain to this day. We believe that these are the remains of the Book of Mormon people. It is just that a clear link between them and the Book of Mormon has not yet been established, which is understandable given their violent history, their subsequent apostasy and extreme wickedness, and the fact that their language has not yet been completely understood. If you can give me an explanation as to why there is no trace of Israelites having ever lived in Egypt, I will also give you an explanation for why there is not, or does not appear to be (at the present time) a clear link between the ruins of the ancient American civilizations and the Book of Mormon.

zerinus

This is not true, you are wrong, AGAIN. There is** plenty **of evidence of the Hebrews living in lower Egypt. Stop saying what you’d like to believe and start reading ‘Biblical Archeology’ magazine to see how real evidence is discovered. They have foundations of buildings, graves, various housewares, renderings showing pre-Exodus Hebrews at work, and on and on. Now my question TO YOU. Exactly ‘how much’ does the Church of LDS SPEND each year on archaeological work throughout the Americas to find the "LINK’ Zerinus? I imagine it’s millions and millions and millions to ‘find and establish’ archaeological evidence for such an important part of your ‘belief’ system. The Catholic Church does immense amounts of historical and archaeological research, all over the word. What about the LDS? Are they trying to ‘FIND’ that connection you speak of… if so much of this civilization you speak of existed, then there must be overwhelming amounts of evidence waiting to be found, and I would think the LDS, with all it’s money, would spare no expense to find it, to prove their historical, CLAIMS. So, how much DO they spend, where are the digs and what are they looking for? Reply to this, I want to know…HOW MUCH DO THEY SPEND TO FIND THIS OUT, WHERE AND WHEN? This evidence must be somewhere, it did not all just evaporate. It’s easier to find dinosaurs than any evidence for the Book of Mormon. Where is the LDS Church looking Z? And show me the links and stories to show they are looking. I’d think they’d have a interest in finding it, wouldn’t you. Unless they TRULY know better…

 

[Jerusha]

I’d think they’d have a interest in finding it, wouldn’t you. Unless they TRULY know better…

They know where the evidence is, and it’s obvious. They just don’t want to admit it. After all, that would make their beloved “Nephites” to be Vikings, and they had a bad reputation. What-- until Vatican II, there was a prayer at the end of the Mass that asked for protection from them. Maybe that prayer needs to be restored.

 

[truthsilence]

Quote:
Originally Posted by truthsilence
Whenever I pray to God for these types of answers, I always ask that God please not allow me to be deceived by the devil. I believe that is the very reason I never received a testimony of the BOM.

That is another way of saying that you didn’t want God to give you the answer that He wanted to give, but the answer that you wanted to hear.

Zerinus, this sounds like it applies more to yourself, than it does to me. We are warned over and over in the Bible to take care that we are not deceived. What better way to not be deceived, than to ask for Gods protection?

Quote:
Add to that, when I finally accepted the possibility that the BOM was not true, and realized I needed to search again to find God’s church, God literally whispered to my soul, not in an audible voice, but directly to my soul: “Go to the Catholic church”. The Catholic church was not even on my “radar”. It was the last place I would have thought to go.

I can quite believe that. It is possible for the devil to intervene, and answer instead of God; but that only happens when we approach God in the wrong way—when we “waver,” dilly dally, are hesitant and uncertain, and want to receive our own answer rather than God’s. As James said, “A double minded man is unstable in all his ways” and “let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord”. When we persistently approach God in the wrong way, He persistently refuses to answer. When God refuses to answer, the devil will.

I was not being double minded. I approached God in humility, hoping to receive the answer I was “promised”. You’re telling me that, because I also asked God to protect me from the devils lies, God chose not to answer me, and instead allowed the devil to? Do you realize how twisted this is Zerinus?

Quote:
You don’t have to answer this Zerinus, but did you ask God for this exact protection when you prayed to know about the BOM?

Two answers to that. First of all, I didn’t need to pray to God at all, to know if the Book of Mormon is true. When I read it, I knew instantly that it was true. The Spirit of the Lord bore witness to me that it was true.

Well, you wanted it to be true, correct? (as did I) You knew what answer you wanted God to give you. You did not ask him to protect you from the devils lies, and now you say you didn’t even pray to receive Gods answer! So perhaps you gave yourself the answer you wanted? Or the devil answered you!

If your heart is in the right place, if you sincerely desire to know the truth, and not just what you want to hear, and if you approach God with confidence, without hesitation or “wavering,” but with sincerity of heart and in good faith, the truth will be made to you without you having to ask.

It sounds to me like you’re not even giving God a chance to answer! In approaching God with humility and sincerity, you must be willing to let the answer be no. My heart was “in the right place”, I was obedient to what I was being taught. The only difference between my experience and yours, is that I prayed for God’s protection from the devil, and well,* I actually prayed to God for the answer*! You implied that I approached God the wrong way. You, apparently, didn’t approach Him at all! This is very telling, as to which one of us has been deceived, or “answered by the devil” as you put it.

Secondly, I refer you to all the scriptural passages I have quoted earlier (Luke 11:9-13; James 1:5-8; John 16:13; John 7:17). There is not one instance in any of them that says, or even implies, that one should first ask God’s protection from the wrong answer, before asking for His right answer. That is a sign of hesitation, double mindedness, wavering, and lack of good faith and genuine confidence in God to answer a prayer. As James said: “For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.”

Do a search on the word “deceive” in the Bible. Jesus was persistent in his teaching about that. Again, what better way to “watch that you be not deceived” than to ask for Gods protection! Do you think you know better than God, what constitutes deceit; and so you don’t even need to ask? Hmmm this is sounding a lot like what the devil promised in the garden. “Ye shall be as Gods knowing good from evil”. Zerinus, GOD determines what is Good, and what is Sin. Not us.

cont…

 

[truthsilence]

You have asked me several questions, and I have answered them for you. Now I would like to ask you a question: During the time that you were a member of the LDS Church, how many times did you actually read the Book of Mormon all the way through, from the beginning to the end? I am interested to know your answer to that question.

Sure. I read it beginning to end all the way through once. (at least once - I may have gotten all the way through it more than once, but right now I can’t remember for sure). After that, I read from the BOM daily, but I’d just pick a topic, or approach it from a topic in a lesson. I particularly loved the words in Alma and 3rd Nephi. So I would often read those. But yes, I started it many times and got half way through, or some portion of the way through, then start over again. (just like everyone else I know says they do) I don’t prefer to read scripture that way, “beginning to end”. I prefer to pick it up, choose a section and read. Or I go from a guide, or a lesson, or even just something that’s on my mind that I want to know what Jesus and his disciples taught.

Quote:
Please don’t jump all over me. If you don’t want to answer, just don’t answer.

I am not sure what that is supposed to mean.

Sorry. I feel like you’ve jumped on me before, and made some pretty strong accusations. I was hoping you’d be more respectful and I think you have been, somewhat. As far as my comment about answering; when I ask personal questions on the internet, I completely understand if someone chooses not to answer. In fact I realize its pretty bold to ask them in the first place.

Peace to you.
Tami

 

[truthsilence]

Peace and God’s blessings to all of you here at Catholic Answers.

Since this will be my first Lenten season as a Catholic, I’m beginning my preparations early. I plan to devote the season to personal prayer and deeper reflection; and what our Lord might ask of me, in service to him. Consequently, I won’t be responding on this forum for a while. At least that is my intent.

Please pray for me. I will be praying for all of you.

Peace,
Tami