The Book of Mormons and the Bible

[wussup]

You see Allweather! This is how a rational discussion is conducted. Relatively little ad hominems, he even recognized points that were well made. See, you can disagree without being disagreeable.
Majik, I am baffled by your comments regarding poor apologetics. I have had discussions with some big names in the protestant community and they are more honest than that.
Regarding point 1 and the charismatic leader. My understanding of that point of definitive is the charismatic leader is currently alive. That may be a mistake on my behalf. And you are correct regarding the hymns (though 'We thank thee oh god for a prophet" is more an appreciation for the spiritual leader as title vs. Joseph Smith. I had forgot about Praise to the man. Ok, maybe a little veneration is made, but certainly nothing along the lines of worship…
The Lord’s Prayer is a pattern, not meant to be a mantra. And here is the prayer shown to address Our Father in Heaven, not Jesus, but rather to close in His name. That was what Jesus said, and that is what we do.
I appreciate your recognition that name calling is not helpful to the discussion. Do you know what chiasmus is?

 

[Erich]

Bashing a religion you are doing, in this case, mine.

Oh, so now I’m bashing your religion when I ask questions you can’t answer?

Rather than pretending to be Socrates and only ask questions, why don’t you address the subject YOU brought up. To wit, please address the entirety of Gardner’s response to Twain’s observation. I understand that debating a subject actually requires intellectual curiosity and honesty. Give it a try…

From Old Testament Statistics - New American Bible:

Total Number of Chapters and Verses in the Old Testament (NAB)
**OT Book Group ****# Chaps. **# Verses
**The Pentateuch/Torah ****187 **5853
**The Historical Books ****316 **9186
**The Wisdom Books ****313 **6656
**The Major Prophets ****191 **4825
**The 12 Minor Prophets ****67 **1050
**GRAND TOTAL ****1074 **27570

Oh, yes… and 334 paragraph markers (“and it came to pass”)

How many chapters and verses in the BoM? I don’t know… but apparently it depends on which edition of the BoM one has… sometime after 1908, 32 whole chapters were added to the book of Alma

 

[hosemonkey]

You see Allweather! This is how a rational discussion is conducted. Relatively little ad hominems, he even recognized points that were well made. See, you can disagree without being disagreeable.
Majik, I am baffled by your comments regarding poor apologetics. I have had discussions with some big names in the protestant community and they are more honest than that.
Regarding point 1 and the charismatic leader. My understanding of that point of definitive is the charismatic leader is currently alive. That may be a mistake on my behalf. And you are correct regarding the hymns (though 'We thank thee oh god for a prophet" is more an appreciation for the spiritual leader as title vs. Joseph Smith. I had forgot about Praise to the man. Ok, maybe a little veneration is made, but certainly nothing along the lines of worship…
The Lord’s Prayer is a pattern, not meant to be a mantra. And here is the prayer shown to address Our Father in Heaven, not Jesus, but rather to close in His name. That was what Jesus said, and that is what we do.
I appreciate your recognition that name calling is not helpful to the discussion. Do you know what chiasmus is?

Can you respond to my charges of plagiarism in the BOM and the fact that there is no historical basis in fact for the BOM?
Can you comment on Joe Smith’s assertion that the document on papyrus in “reformed egyptian” was indeed the “Book of Abraham.”? Can you explain why Mormons do not have the courage of their convictions regarding the (continuing)doctrine of plural marriage? Your persistance regarding chiasmus is not relevant because the material in BOM to which you allude was most likely stolen from the KJV. Chiasmus was a very common middle eastern writing style, but to attribute it’s presence in the BOM with any kind of authenticity is fallacious.

 

[wussup]

I will address the plagiarsm issue later as I have to mosey, however, regarding your comments about:
1-Church growth, yes it is growning, and yes, just like scriptures say, many are call and fall like chaff (to mix my parables)
2-Mormons not encouraged to question or inquire, your smoking crack. Did you also get this from Utah Lighthouse? Yeesh, what a hypocrit. The Catholic Church has been the subject of more abuse and bigoted literature than any other faith save the LDS (of course ) and Jews, and you go to anti-Mormon literature? Yes, this is a form of ad hominem, yet your position loses credibility when you get your information from other bigots. I was an Elder and served my mission under a General Authority, I am a questioner, and I was never ever told I aught not to ask a question. I could give arguments against the Church you never heard of (ala’ BH Roberts). But they are MY arguments. Intellectually dishonest so and so…
3-This is a question I honestly seek from anyone, when you pray for guidance as Father Carapi says, how do you know when you are being guided?

Erich-
You still are missing the point, the mere presence of an paragraph markers in the Book of Mormon is a PROOF for the Book of Mormon. The fact that such Markers have disappeared from the Bible (as we know they did because that was how all writing of the Bible by the authors 2500-3000 years ago wrote) is also evidence of tampering with the Bible. This isn’t rocket science. a) ALL early aramaic writings have NO punctation, and were assigned markers such as and it came to pass. It is impossible for a writer of that era to write without makers as it is for us to write without a period b)the presence of markers in profundity in the B of M give proof the B of M is of ancient heritage one can bash ncnt wrtrs s mch s n wnts t bt yr vdnc f gnrnt s nnng Now, address Gardner.

 

[Montalban]

"Montalban:

You said that the church had become Apostate. Did you mean the Orthodox Church?

I meant every church. We believe that the early Christian church apostatized, and lost the divine authority that it once possessed, and the Christian churches that exist today are a remnant of that apostate institution. That means Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, the whole lot.

How did it happen to them all at once?

Montalban:

But as we’ve established;a) it’s not a definitive list

I fail to see the point behind your emphasis on a “definitive list”. It is a list, and a substantial one. That would be like saying that a long list of errors that we have discovered in the new Windows operating system is of no consequence because it is not a “definitive list”.

It would be rather pointless of Microsoft to say “We’ve got some of the errors identified” before they release the package.
"Montalban:

b) it doesn’t affect any dogma in any major way

Actually, it does.

You said it didn’t.
Post #15 you minimise their impact…
"zerinus:

Yes, but they are not that many, and theologically not very significant when it comes to the fundamentals of the religion.

Take, for example, the doctrine of infant baptism. The doctrine of infant baptism has serious consequences for the theology of a religion.

Really? What consequences? You can tell me here a bit about your understanding of my church’s ideas on this.
"Montalban:

andc) it’s proven because the LDS books say it is so (circular logic)

Religion is ultimately a matter of faith.

With a reason to have faith.

In every religion, there comes a point where you will have to accept things on faith. We have never claimed to be able to “prove” to anyone the truth of the LDS Church, or of the Book of Mormon, by logic, philosophical reasoning, or scientific evidence.

You wouldn’t be able to make those claims.
I base my beliefs in Orthodoxy on a reading of the church Fathers and believing that Orthodoxy is not just ‘closer’ of churches to the church of the New Testament, but that it is that church.

That’s ‘reason’. Reason also tells me that it’s claims are logical, and not circular.

Faith comes into it insofar as I believe that the mystical experiences of the church are real.

 

[zerinus]

How did it happen to them all at once?

It didn’t happen to them “all at once”. Jesus established only one true church, not thousands. It happened to that one true original church early on, and the rest split off from that.

It would be rather pointless of Microsoft to say “We’ve got some of the errors identified” before they release the package.

There will always be errors in it, no matter how hard they try, long after they have released the package. That is why they periodically release updates, bug fixes, hot fixes, and security updates. They are still doing it for Windows XP, and will still be doing it for a long while yet.

You said it didn’t.
Post #15 you minimise their impact…

You persistently misunderstand my meaning. It becomes really boring after a while. :yawn:

Really? What consequences? You can tell me here a bit about your understanding of my church’s ideas on this.

I am not interested in your church. Remember, it apostatized.

With a reason to have faith.

You wouldn’t be able to make those claims.
I base my beliefs in Orthodoxy on a reading of the church Fathers and believing that Orthodoxy is not just ‘closer’ of churches to the church of the New Testament, but that it is that church.

That’s ‘reason’. Reason also tells me that it’s claims are logical, and not circular.

Faith comes into it insofar as I believe that the mystical experiences of the church are real.

I have the testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true.

zerinus

 

[hosemonkey]

"I have the testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true.

zerinus"

Zerinus,
The Holy Ghost is pulling your leg.

 

[PaulDupre]

1. After almost 200 years on earth, LDS are clearly not a fad.

200 Years? That long??? LOL! The Montanists, Gnostics, Arianists, Sebelianists, Pelegianists and most other heretical sects lasted more than 200 years and then crumbled to dust, as Mormonism will crumble to dust. The membership records office in SLC processes more than 200 applications a day for people who want their names taken off the records of the LDS church. That’s far more than the number of people who join the LDS (convert baptisms have declined every year since 1989) or are born into the LDS (especially since abortion and artificial birth control have become ubiquitous among the LDS).

The Catholic Church has been around nearly 2000 years. It is the oldest institution on earth. It has outlasted every kingdom, every nation, every culture. Why? Because Jesus, who is God Himself, promised that He would always be with His Church, and that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. The Holy Spirit is leading Jesus’ Church into all truth, just as He promised.

Repent, be baptised and come home to Jesus.
Paul

 

[truthsilence]

I have a testimony born of earnest Prayer, Faith, Reason, and by the Conviction of the Holy Spirit, that the Catholic Church is the true Church of Jesus Christ. I prayed for fifteen years that I might gain a testimony of the Book of Mormon. I also prayed to God that I might not be deceived. God never left me, but instead led me, lovingly and patiently to the truth of his Church. To Him be all Honor and Praise forever. Amen

 

[hosemonkey]

200 Years? That long??? LOL! The Montanists, Gnostics, Arianists, Sebelianists, Pelegianists and most other heretical sects lasted more than 200 years and then crumbled to dust, as Mormonism will crumble to dust. The membership records office in SLC processes more than 200 applications a day for people who want their names taken off the records of the LDS church. That’s far more than the number of people who join the LDS (convert baptisms have declined every year since 1989) or are born into the LDS (especially since abortion and artificial birth control have become ubiquitous among the LDS).

The Catholic Church has been around nearly 2000 years. It is the oldest institution on earth. It has outlasted every kingdom, every nation, every culture. Why? Because Jesus, who is God Himself, promised that He would always be with His Church, and that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. The Holy Spirit is leading Jesus’ Church into all truth, just as He promised.

Repent, be baptised and come home to Jesus.
Paul

Amen!
200 years? The mormons are so new that they are still discovering Joe Smith’s motel receipts in attics all over
Missouri. That is one of the Mormon heirarchy’s greatest fears, that somebody is going to turn up something that will bust the whole scam wide open. This is why there is a thriving trade in documents and artifacts that bear on the early history of Mormonism and why con men and scam artists have been very successful in fleecing the leadership with fake documents that must be locked away, because they have no way of knowing if they are fake or not.

 

[PaulDupre]

I have a testimony born of earnest Prayer, Faith, Reason, and by the Conviction of the Holy Spirit, that the Catholic Church is the true Church of Jesus Christ. I prayed for fifteen years that I might gain a testimony of the Book of Mormon. I also prayed to God that I might not be deceived. God never left me, but instead led me, lovingly and patiently to the truth of his Church. To Him be all Honor and Praise forever. Amen

Amen! Eleven years here - a hamster on the treadmill of Mormonism, trying to earn my way to godhood - fulfilling my 4 callings, paying a full tithe plus building fund plus missionary fund plus everything else plus temple attendance plus tithing settlement plus a career plus everything else - praying for a testimony of the BOM or of Joseph Smith or of “please God anything!”. And none of that was voluntary - I was commanded by the “bishop” to do these things at the peril of my temple recommend. What a relief to be finally snuggled in the loving arms of Jesus, who just loves me and frees me and forgives me and leads me gently to the Father. His yoke is easy and His burden is light.

Now I give of my time, talents and resources as I’m moved by the Holy Spirit, not as I’m compelled by a Mormon bishop. I am free to give as much or as little as I feel is appropriate to my parish, my diocese or to other worthy causes as the Spirit prompts me [see Exodus 35:20 and following]. The beauty and the spiritual freedom is thrilling. I am a lector at my parish. My wife (a Filipina) and I contribute to a scholarship fund for seminarians in the Philippines, as well as to the parish and the diocese. The Holy Spirit led me powerfully to the seminarians’ fund several years ago on our yearly vacation in the Philippines. As a Mormon I would never have had the freedom to do anything like this. And my pastor thinks it’s great that I don’t give it all to the local parish, but follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit. The seminarians’ fund has yielded great fruit. Three of “our” seminarians have been ordained and are doing the Lord’s work in Filipino parishes. How cool is that?

God love you, truthsilence!
Paul

 

[majick275]

You see Allweather! This is how a rational discussion is conducted. Relatively little ad hominems, he even recognized points that were well made. See, you can disagree without being disagreeable.
Majik, I am baffled by your comments regarding poor apologetics. I have had discussions with some big names in the protestant community and they are more honest than that.

whoa! careful with the honesty implication. I would like to know just who “the big names” are. As they are Protestant thought you will have to accept that I am also skeptical there. I believe in the old saying “to be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.” Catholic history includes early Christian fathers, doctors of the church and many years of well supported theological study. I won’t claim that makes it automatically “correct”. (I have other reasons for that belief). But by very definition we excel at apologetics. I would think that as a mormon your natural position to be tha you have nothing to apologize for. seriously though, Most LDS prophets have been pretty consistent that the bearing and sharing of testimonies is the best way to promote the LDS faith. Do you remember the pre-1990 Temple endowment? The original LDS position was quite contemptuous of formal religious education such as seminaries and theologians.

Regarding point 1 and the charismatic leader. My understanding of that point of definitive is the charismatic leader is currently alive. That may be a mistake on my behalf.

debatable. I don’t require they be alive and I would point out many examples where (especially with martyrs like Joseph Smith) the religion thrived even more after the founders death. (Bahai, Islam, Budhism, SDA’s, Scientology, JW’s) although some have died out. (jim jones, david koresh)

And you are correct regarding the hymns (though 'We thank thee oh god for a prophet" is more an appreciation for the spiritual leader as title vs. Joseph Smith. I had forgot about Praise to the man. Ok, maybe a little veneration is made, but certainly nothing along the lines of worship…

I can’t just let that go. Let’s take a look at he exact words of that hymn: *Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah! Jesus anointed that Prophet and Seer.
Blessed to open the last dispensation, Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.

chorus: Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven! Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.

Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren; Death cannot conquer the hero again.

Praise to his memory, he died as a martyr; Honored and blest be his ever great name!

Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins, Plead unto heaven while the earth lauds his fame.

Great is his glory and endless his priesthood: Ever and ever the keys he will hold.

Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom, Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven; Earth must atone for the blood of that man.

Wake up the world for the conflict of justice. Millions shall know “brother Joseph” again.

• I think that goes beyond “a little veneration”. as to the “thank thee oh God for a prophet” I think most mormons really see him as being in direct communication with God. The chief amongst the “oracles of the Lord”. I think that defaults to a charismatic leader. He tells us how many earrings to wear. His words in general conference are considered scripture. basically what he says to do is by mormon doctrine equal to the God personally commanding it.

(continued)

 

[majick275]

(continued)

The Lord’s Prayer is a pattern, not meant to be a mantra. And here is the prayer shown to address Our Father in Heaven, not Jesus, but rather to close in His name. That was what Jesus said, and that is what we do.

yet you give no supporting facts merely assertions. Jesus tells us in the bible specifically to pray these words. How is that different than the D&C “revelation” for the sacrament prayers? notice also that in the Bible we are NOT told to close that particular prayer in Jesus name. you might look to the BoM for ideas on how the original mormons had some rather orthodox beliefs here on the trinity and prayers.(testimony of the tree witnesses from the BoM) And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen. now that’s the glory be almost right out of CCD class. where are the prayers to Christ or the holy spirit in the LDS church? they are missing yet we see the vestigial references still there that I believe show us the human origin of mormonism. Look at baptismal prayers. look at 3 nephi 19:18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God. but wait that’s not all… read further in that chapter: *25 And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him; and his countenance did smile upon them, and the light of his countenance did shine upon them, and behold they were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness, yea, even there could be nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof.
26 And Jesus said unto them: Pray on; nevertheless they did not cease to pray.
• • •
30 And when Jesus had spoken these words he came again unto his disciples; and behold they did pray steadfastly, without ceasing, unto him; and he did smile upon them again; and behold they were white, even as Jesus. * see something inconsistent with the LDS position here?

I appreciate your recognition that name calling is not helpful to the discussion. Do you know what chiasmus is?

your welcome. yes I do and it’s very debatable that it applies to the BoM. Some folks at BYU are trying to get up to speed on apologetics and I think this a bit of a reach. at best it makes the BoM no more compelling than before. worst case it can seem silly. I’ve seen the “explanations” for DNA results, limited geography, mixing with indigenous peoples to achieve population sizes and all th other attempts to reconcile the BoM with the substantial evidence against it. I probably respect most the simple folk who just believe God told them it’s true and don’t worry about it. The ones who twist and stretch facts to accommodate the inconsistencies appear to me to be charlatans. I won’t go into all of those but as an example obsidian macahuitls don’t rust!!! so they are not what the BoM describes as “swords”. Please forgive the rabbit trail there it’s not intended to be a straw man. I just wanted to give context around my view of LDS apologetics before we go down the chiasmus path.(which by the way is more of a latin thing than hebrew and was pretty common in the English poetry that would have been found in Joseph Smith’s time. Shakespeare is considered a master of chiasmus )
God bless you

 

[Montalban]

It didn’t happen to them “all at once”. Jesus established only one true church, not thousands. It happened to that one true original church early on, and the rest split off from that.

So how did a Jesus-established church apostatise? It just did. How do you know? You just know it did!
Imperfect though you may think Jesus is, I for one don’t believe that he would come to earth establish the procedures for protecting his message - because the Holy Spirit guided them.

There will always be errors in it, no matter how hard they try, long after they have released the package. That is why they periodically release updates, bug fixes, hot fixes, and security updates. They are still doing it for Windows XP, and will still be doing it for a long while yet.

I suppose the analogy fits your way of seeing an imperfect church. Your own church is too, as you note further revelations may appear. How do you know when they will? Who knows. But it’s a rather brave thing to do to claim that you know something to be true based on your own imperfect church.

You persistently misunderstand my meaning. It becomes really boring after a while.

You changing your mind about something isn’t boring, but certainly interesting!

I am not interested in your church. Remember, it apostatized.

Then your statement about my church earlier has no meaning. You claim it did something. Based on circular reasoning. What happened? You don’t know. You just know it did.

I have the testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true.
zerinus

Based as it is on circular reasoning. We’ve already seen how you changed your mind about the degree of effect of the so-called errors of the Bible.

Is this how you seek converts? You don’t appeal to any level of rationality, but just make your claims that are backed by your claims that your claims are correct?

I’ve enjoyed my discussion with you because at least you’ve advertised the basis of your beliefs to be nonsensical (which is what circular logic is).

Your church is unable to answer even basic questions.

 

[Montalban]

"I have the testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true.

zerinus"

Zerinus,
The Holy Ghost is pulling your leg.

Indeed! How does he know this truth? The Book of Mormons tells him it is, based on the fact the book authorises itself.

Islam, Baha’i and other faiths all prove themselves just as well.

 

[flameburns623]

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Latter-day_Saint_Scripture_Quadruple_Combination.jpg/333px-Latter-day_Saint_Scripture_Quadruple_Combination.jpg

kellie:

I know also through these discussions that Mormons use both the Bible, and the Book of Mormons.

My question is why haven’t the Mormons ever just combined the Bible and the Book of Mormons?

Was this what you were looking for?

 

[kellie]

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Latter-day_Saint_Scripture_Quadruple_Combination.jpg/333px-Latter-day_Saint_Scripture_Quadruple_Combination.jpg

Was this what you were looking for?

Wow ok, thanks.

I guess I was wondering more why they don’t completely rewrite the Bible, leaving out the “errors” and combining it with the BOM, and so getting rid of the KJV altogether.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Actually, we make all churches “the church which we are not”.

Zerinus, if the Church had apostasized as Mormons (regardless their denom. be it LDS, Community of Christ, FLDS, etc.) claim why do Mormons use the KJV? And not the original 1611 KJV with the Deuterocanonicals printed in order in the Old Testament…, but an Americanized KJV (minus the deuterocanon)?

If the Church had apostasized, what authority would a Protestant Church (the Church of England) have in translating the Bible? This doesn’t make any sense at all?

 

[Montalban]

Zerinus, if the Church had apostasized as Mormons (regardless their denom. be it LDS, Community of Christ, FLDS, etc.) claim why do Mormons use the KJV? And not the original 1611 KJV with the Deuterocanonicals printed in order in the Old Testament…, but an Americanized KJV (minus the deuterocanon)?

If the Church had apostasized, what authority would a Protestant Church (the Church of England) have in translating the Bible? This doesn’t make any sense at all?

Oh yea of little faith! Don’t you realise that it just is so?

Oddly enough, despite all my dislike of Islam, I find it has a *more *logical approach than the LDS

 

[Montalban]

Wow ok, thanks.

I guess I was wondering more why they don’t completely rewrite the Bible, leaving out the “errors” and combining it with the BOM, and so getting rid of the KJV altogether.

What we’ve learnt from one Mormon is that the Bible is both seriously faulty, and not so at the same time. How do we know this? It just is.

He made some comment about baptism without actually being able to tell me what about baptism my church does wrong.

I knew he’d fail on this because my church has a completely different idea on baptism from the Catholic church.

For them its an action that washes away Original Sin.

For us, we don’t believe in Original Sin, and baptism is seen as the entry into the life of the Church.

Zerinus has no idea about any of these differences but just believes we’re all the same Apostate Church.