The Book Which is Most being read:Qur'an

[MartinJordan]

As Hasantas starts from John 8:24 to state his case, my question is what did Jesus say at 8:23 ?

Hasantas, what is in your bible at John 8:23? What does it mean to you?

Peace be with you .

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

Jesus said himself in John 14:6 “…I am the way and the truth and the life…”

Right. Jesus states this straight and clear. Awesome Holy Words .

Amen !

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

First there is references Jesus made in Bible that he would rise on the third day
John 2:19-22
19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.”

20 The Jews said, “This temple has been under construction for forty-six years, and you will raise it up in three days?”

21 But he was speaking about the temple of his body.

22 Therefore, when he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they came to believe the scripture and the word Jesus had spoken

Matthew 17:23
and they will kill him, and he will be raised on the third day.” And they were overwhelmed with grief.

Luke 9:22
He said, “The Son of Man must suffer greatly and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised.”

I am not aware of Jesus directly saying " I have risen from death". But if we look at what else the Bible has to say about the Resurrection of Jesus. also a few questions I’d like to ask you

Matthew 27:59-60
59 Taking the body, Joseph wrapped it [in] clean linen
60 and laid it in his new tomb that he had hewn in the rock. Then he rolled a huge stone across the entrance to the tomb and departed.

Matthew 28:5-6
5 Then the angel said to the women in reply, “Do not be afraid! I know that you are seeking Jesus the crucified.
6 He is not here, for he has been raised just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay.

Jesus said of himself after his Resurrection in Luke 24:46
And he said to them, “Thus it is written that the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day

Would not the “look a like jesus” still be dead and still in the tomb?
After allah brought up jesus…how did jesus come back to earth and show himself to the disciples?
Because the “look a like jesus” had died on the cross and in the tomb he would remain. For Jesus himself said in Luke 9:60 "But he answered him, “Let the dead bury their dead.But you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”
So wouldn’t the look a like still in the tomb?

“And what is word of Holy Spirit in which he testify Crucifixion?”
I’ll give you an explanation after each verse and at the end on how I think the Holy Spirit testifies to the Crucifixion.

We must go back to where Jesus mentions the Advocate/Holy Spirit
John 14:17 “…But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you” (Jesus referring to himself and the Holy Spirit)
John 14:23 “Jesus answered and said to him, “Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him.( In part of keeping Jesus’ words of his coming Crucifixion )
John 14:26 The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name—he will teach you everything and remind you of all that * told you ( Being reminded of all he told them…the Crucifixion being one )
Acts 2:4 " And they were all filled with the holy Spirit …”
Acts 2:32 “God raised this Jesus; of this we are all witnesses.” ( We see in Acts 2:4 and 32 they are filled with the Holy Spirit and witnesses )
Mark 16:15 “He said to them, “Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature.”

Jesus telling his Disciples to go out and preach the Gospels is testifying and Glorifying Jesus , as he said the Holy Spirit would do. In doing so the Holy Spirit is testifying to the Crucifixion.*

Beautifully consistent. :extrahappy:

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

Guys, I just want to interject here to compliment you on the manner you are debating and discussing a very volatile subject.
Keep up the good work.

Caritas!

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

Yes. Perhaps the original text should be.

What does this mean if one still uses parts of it to support the Quran? Where in the Quran does it say the original texts of Bible are not available?

And what is the official Bible that Muslims use now if original does not exist? I’m still waiting for your answer.

MJ

 

[JimmyDFG]

I do not know if Jesus had learnt Greek and there is no evidence for that. I think disciples wrote revelation in Greek because people were used to speak in Greek around.

There are many metaphorical statements in scriptures. That is because of why people have so many different thoughts and interpretation in religion and Godhead.

Words of God and Jesus will not pass away. Qur’an corrected the wrong interpretations for ever.

What interpretations did the quran correct?
If Jesus’ words were not to pass away, why would they need to be corrected?

 

[gmcbroom]

Hasantas you know technically you shouldn’t she the words of the Gospel were changed. There is 2 reasons why.

1.The Quran denies this.

Sura 6;115 and Sura 18;27

 

[gmcbroom]

The second reason is Muhammad him self is told by allah if he has any doubts to ask the book of the book. Why would Allah do that if our words were changed? In short the Quran affirms the Gospels and Torah. So your going against the Quran when you say the words were changed.

 

[JimmyDFG]

Spirit is generally interpreted as Jibril(angel Gabriel or Holy Spirit). But for comforter it is said “spirit of truth”. And that is not same as it is used for Holy Spirit. Before Jesus informed about Paraclete it was usual to say just Holy Spirit for Gabriel. So why would Jesus call Holy Spirit as Comforter or Paraclete? Jesus said another paraclete but not Holy Spirit who is almost known very well. Jesus said spirit of truth will preach people. So how a spirit would preach people? Muhammad is spirit of truth by all manners. Muhammad was always true and said always true and declared all trues! Muhammad is among us but a spirit could not be among us.

The term Spirit is not just used for Gabriel. For instance God say "our spirit for soul of Jesus. And Gabriel is not the unique angel. There are countless angels of God. Angels were used to be send for several works. Gabriel was used to be send for high works.

Good we’ve established Gabriel as not being the Holy Spirit/Advocate or any other angel for that matter. Because when Jesus spoke of the “Advocate” in John 14:16-26 he says “he will” not “they will.”

In John 14:17 Jesus’ mentioned “you know it” referring to the Holy Spirit.
The disciples do not know the “countless angels of God” ( as you said ). In John 14:17 “it” would of been a “them”

 

[JimmyDFG]

Is there any statement in Bible in which Jesus said I raised from death?

The man looked like Jesus was to save Jesus from death. Unbelievers set a trap for Jesus but God frustrated that. That is not something about damnation. That was a honor for followers of Jesus.

If a man had looked like Jesus so how would people be able to know that he was not Jesus?

One of disciples said that he would not believe unless he did not see the wounds. Because he thought that Jesus should have wounds. But when he saw Jesus there is no any statements about wounds. Jesus tried to convince him a little.

And what is word of Holy Spirit in which he testify Crucifixion?

I believe in Bible but do you do unconditionally?

One more I’d like to add to my comment in #272 …

What Jesus said before the Crucifixion and what he said after the Resurrection indicates Jesus has Risen
( Before ) Mark 14:28 But after I have been raised up, I shall go before you to Galilee.”
( After ) Matthew 28:10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go tell my brothers to go to Galilee, and there they will see me.”

 

[hasantas]

Hasantas,

The Vatican church fathers see the holy bible Old and New Testament as the words of God in the words of men. How do you see the Quran and Hadith? Is it the same?

Qur’an is direct words of God. Some Hadiths are also same. But most of Hadiths are words of Muhammad to explain meaning of revelation.

I think there are many words of God in Both Torah and Gospels and also words of God in the words of men but also there are statements of writers in both. It is very clear.

 

[hasantas]

The second reason is Muhammad him self is told by allah if he has any doubts to ask the book of the book. Why would Allah do that if our words were changed? In short the Quran affirms the Gospels and Torah. So your going against the Quran when you say the words were changed.

The original of revelation was in Aramaic but present Gospels are in Greek. And both Torah and Gospels are the interpretations through interpretations. So how could we consider these scriptures as % 100 words of God or revelation?

That issue to ask people of scriptures. Pagans and unbelievers did not/could not understand revelation. So God say to ask people whom know revelation.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

The original of revelation was in Aramaic but present Gospels are in Greek. And both Torah and Gospels are the interpretations through interpretations. So how could we consider these scriptures as % 100 words of God or revelation?

That issue to ask people of scriptures. Pagans and unbelievers did not/could not understand revelation. So God say to ask people whom know revelation.

That the apostles and the first generation of Christians had no problem with presenting the essence of the Gospel in Greek surely shows us that it can be trusted right? Why do you presume the message of Christ cannot present itself in the Greek through the Holy Spirit guiding the writers of the New Testament?

If it were so important that the New Testament be written in Aramaic, it would have been written in Aramaic. It was written in Greek because that was the universal language of the Roman Empire at the time and the perfect means of spreading the good news.

 

[hasantas]

Again this is unacceptable way of convincing anyone if you skip verses. John 8 from the start is Jesus teaching in the Temple when an adulteress is brought to be stoned.

Hasantas can you be fair and go through that event? This is John 8:1 -11. What are your feelings in that event? Use your Bible and paste the verses.

Then continue on to John 8:12. As you started only at John 8:24.

Let’s go through it step by step .

Peace be with you .

MJ

You are obsessed about skipping. I cannot cite the whole Bible in every time! please do not say again that because it is nonsense. Also you do same thing to explain an issue. Otherwise it would bore and exhaust people.

 

[hasantas]

That the apostles and the first generation of Christians had no problem with presenting the essence of the Gospel in Greek surely shows us that it can be trusted right? Why do you presume the message of Christ cannot present itself in the Greek through the Holy Spirit guiding the writers of the New Testament?

If it were so important that the New Testament be written in Aramaic, it would have been written in Aramaic. It was written in Greek because that was the universal language of the Roman Empire at the time and the perfect means of spreading the good news.

So Holy Spirit was not successful to make apostles writing Gospels in same words!

I think there was no need for Holy Spirit(Indeed it cannot be proven that Holy Spirit guide to write) to write Gospels because every writers had written through personal ways.

Revelation can be conveyed in any language but what I mean is that some statements of writers could be considered or confused with revelation. Or the interpretation sometimes alter the exact meaning.

 

[hasantas]

John 8:24 That is why I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.”

hasantas who has the authority to forgive sins? "The Same and The Son Of Man and I Am He. "?

Luke 7:48 "He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”

We should also look at these verses for the " “The Same "
John 14:7” If you know me, then you will also know my Father. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

John 14:9 "…Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’

John 14:11 “Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me”
( notice the “I am” in there )

Matthew 28:18 “Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

As we can see hasantas I AM is "The Same ". The Son of Man/ Son of God

If you think verses carefully you will understand that what Jesus said. As you cite:

Matthew 28:18 “Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

In that verse Jesus said all authority has been given to me. Notice that Jesus did not say all authority is mine or myself but Father gave! Yes Father gave prophets some powers and Jesus was given authority and was supported by Holy Spirit. It is also explained in Qur’an.

In other verse Jesus say it is Father who act through me and I just do what Father wish or say. Notice that Jesus never claim anything for Himself.

Jesus had performed many miracles to convince believers and people. And there were many signs which point that Jesus was sent by Father. So Jesus said there is no need to see father because Jesus himself was a very powerful evidence for Father.

 

[JimmyDFG]

The original of revelation was in Aramaic but present Gospels are in Greek. And both Torah and Gospels are the interpretations through interpretations. So how could we consider these scriptures as % 100 words of God or revelation?

That issue to ask people of scriptures. Pagans and unbelievers did not/could not understand revelation. So God say to ask people whom know revelation.

The same thing can be said for muslims who don’t understand Arabic. If you have two muslims, one reading the quran in Arabic and the other reading in Chinese. Is the muslim reading the quran in Chinese any less of a muslim than the one that read it in Arabic?

The Gospels have been carefully translated to all languages for all people to read and understand…and for all to know Jesus.
When Jesus said in Matthew 28:19 to “make disciples of all nations” there is no language barrier there. Its not for those who only speak Aramaic.

The word of God is not chained by language!!

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

So Holy Spirit was not successful to make apostles writing Gospels in same words!

I think there was no need for Holy Spirit(Indeed it cannot be proven that Holy Spirit guide to write) to write Gospels because every writers had written through personal ways.

Revelation can be conveyed in any language but what I mean is that some statements of writers could be considered or confused with revelation. Or the interpretation sometimes alter the exact meaning.

Let’s reflect on this statement. You are suggesting that the apostles were not successful because they did not record the words of Jesus as he literally spoke them, that is in aramaic. Yet God obviously allowed the message of Jesus to be spread in the Greek language. You suggest that because the gospel was conveyed in Greek, which God through his holy Spirit allowed, this is what caused there to be confusion within the revelation of Jesus. This is your explanation of Christianity and how it came to believe the things it did. That is because the means by which the message of Jesus was spread by the Apostles was flawed.

Yet what does it say about Allah, that knowing the confusion and massive amount of untruth that Christianity would supply to the world, would do it this way? This would lead to the establishment of the Christian west, a force which is superior to the Islamic world in almost every way (militarily, scientifically and I would say Philosophically and religiously).

Why do you suppose God deliberately allowed Jesus’ revelation to be confused? Was God mistaken to allow it to be spread to the gentiles in Greek? Take in mind Jews also received the gospel in Greek in their own diaspora. What was the point of Jesus’s message if it was merely going to be lost? Let’s connect this back the comforter verses. Was all that Jesus said to his apostles a lie? Was his prayers concerning them not answered? Or is this a part of the Gospel which can’t be trusted because it is in Greek?

There is too much confusion in the Islamic approach to the gospel to me. You cannot accept all the gospels because to do so is to question Islam. You cannot ignore the gospels or New Testament either because they are the earliest documents concerning Jesus and the Church. You are then forced to do an Islamic version of textual criticism, wherein you do not look at the record of the texts themselves but the content to determine authenticity. Statements that you think can agree with Islam you accept out of the general context of the work as a whole. Statements which go against Islam are not even considered. in doing all this you inadvertently paint Jesus and the apostles he chose as failures (though the Quran says otherwise), unable to present truth to the world. That is your interpretation of the comforter verses, which doesn’t take into consideration the whole text but certain texts isolated from each other, is more right than what John himself presents. It’s as if John was misusing the words of Jesus or adding to them to make it the holy spirit, but you know the truth and are able to discern what is correct about them. Christians are limited to the text itself and their confession, thus it is impossible for us to come to your idea of what the texts mean.

Thus why Islam came, almost to rectify the mistakes Jesus and his apostles made, through the establishment of an Islamic system of law and insistence on the purity of Arabic.

 

[hasantas]

First there is references Jesus made in Bible that he would rise on the third day
John 2:19-22
19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.”

20 The Jews said, “This temple has been under construction for forty-six years, and you will raise it up in three days?”

21 But he was speaking about the temple of his body.

22 Therefore, when he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they came to believe the scripture and the word Jesus had spoken

Matthew 17:23
and they will kill him, and he will be raised on the third day.” And they were overwhelmed with grief.

Luke 9:22
He said, “The Son of Man must suffer greatly and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised.”

I am not aware of Jesus directly saying " I have risen from death". But if we look at what else the Bible has to say about the Resurrection of Jesus. also a few questions I’d like to ask you

Matthew 27:59-60
59 Taking the body, Joseph wrapped it [in] clean linen
60 and laid it in his new tomb that he had hewn in the rock. Then he rolled a huge stone across the entrance to the tomb and departed.

Matthew 28:5-6
5 Then the angel said to the women in reply, “Do not be afraid! I know that you are seeking Jesus the crucified.
6 He is not here, for he has been raised just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay.

Jesus said of himself after his Resurrection in Luke 24:46
And he said to them, “Thus it is written that the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day

Would not the “look a like jesus” still be dead and still in the tomb?
After allah brought up jesus…how did jesus come back to earth and show himself to the disciples?
Because the “look a like jesus” had died on the cross and in the tomb he would remain. For Jesus himself said in Luke 9:60 "But he answered him, “Let the dead bury their dead.But you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”
So wouldn’t the look a like still in the tomb?

Every one thought that Jesus must be raised from death so writers had writen in that way. As I said before even Jesus Himself had thought that He would be judged and tortured and killed. Jesus had declared that some times before the event happened. Jesus was informed by God. And Jesus prayed God to be saved. And God accepted pray of Jesus. But Jesus was not sure if His pray will be accepted by God. That issue is very complex yet God had explained in Qur’an.

Jesus Himself after crucifixion(ofcourse not of himself) said He goest to God of all people include Jesus:

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. John 20.

For Father jesus said my God! It is very clear. If Jesus say my God for Father so how Jesus could be God Himself?

 

[hasantas]

Let’s reflect on this statement. You are suggesting that the apostles were not successful because they did not record the words of Jesus as he literally spoke them, that is in aramaic. Yet God obviously allowed the message of Jesus to be spread in the Greek language. You suggest that because the gospel was conveyed in Greek, which God through his holy Spirit allowed this is what caused there to be confusion within the revelation of Jesus. This is your explanation of Christianity and how it came to believe the things it did.

Yet what does it say about Allah, that knowing the confusion and massive amount of untruth that Christianity would supply to the world. This would lead to the establishment of the Christian west, a force which is superior to the Islamic world in almost every way.

Why do you suppose God deliberately allowed Jesus’ revelation to be confused? Was God mistaken to allow it to be spread to the gentiles in Greek? Take in mind Jews also received the gospel in Greek in their own diaspora.

The power is in the truth but the truth is not in the power.

God allow people to decide do wrong or right with free will. Some people had misinterpreted revelation of God which came through Jesus and God corrected that by another revelation which never changed and corrupted. If you have a little faith you should consider what God say in Qur’an.