The Book Which is Most being read:Qur'an

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“But non of interpretation of Qur’an is equal to Arabic Qur’an.”
" But for deeply understanding original Arabic text is first "

So pretty much ,allahs words are limited to Arabic.
Why is it allah only chooses Arabic?

The word of God is to be heard through the world in all languages as stated in…
Matthew 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the world as a witness to all nations, and then the end will come.”

There is no language barrier with the words of Christ or the Holy Spirit. Why should we know less of a faith or be less in the faith because we don’t understand the original language.

By your comment hasantas, the quran and the word of allah are chained by the Arabic language.

Just a side note…
Because the non interpretation of quran is equal to Arabic quran. This definitely wouldn’t make the quran the most read book
Arabic was just a choosing. And using of language is by God directly so that way make it excellent. The power of God’s speak is above all languages. All attributes of God are eternal and Qur’an is direct word of God so Qur’an is miraculous and eternal. That is not just something about Arabic. So non interpretation is equal to original word of God and that make it to read more than others as it is usual for Qur’an.
 
The writers of the New Testament didn’t succeed the record of the revelation of Jesus but recorded it’s essence and explained it’s theology (in the case of the epistles). Jesus entrusted to his apostles an authority to spread the gospel and we can see via the book of acts that it took time to understand the full implications of the gospel, that is it was not limited to the Jews only but was to be spread to the entire world, the gentiles.

The problem as i see it for you is this, the Quran refers to Christians as people of the book, as if we have a book which is legitimate. Yet you don’t consider the books which the Quran tells us to judge by as legitimate, except the parts of those books that agree with the Quran.

There is no good answer for why God would allow his inviolable word, the Gospel and Torah, to be corrupted by the free will of men and yet allow his Quran not to be corrupted by the free will of men. Unless you are arguing that the Muslims in their free will were more faithful. To argue that is to go against the Quran which says the true followers of Jesus would be victorious over the disbelievers, which to me implies the Gospel would continue to exist since they are true followers and we know the ones who were victorious were orthodox Christians.

But my argument that the Greek text of the New testament can be trusted is based on what happened by Jesus’ trusted disciples. They were the ones who found it appropriate to spread the Gospel in the Greek language. They were guided by the Holy Spirit (see acts). Your own Quran says they were victorious over disbelievers. If you distrust what the apostles accomplished or chose in conveying the Gospel in the way they did, through the communities they established and the texts they left us then the promises of Jesus were lies to his beloved disciples. Is Jesus a liar? Is God mocked? Was the ministry of Jesus pointless? In the view of Islam, yes.
Apostles had successed to spread revelation and life of Jesus. But it is not clear that Gospels were written by apostles. The life and messages of Jesus were carried orally. Gospels were written from that oral tradition for about 30-60 years after Jesus. Yet the original was in Aramaic. Indeed there were more Gospels than four and the writers of present Gosples were unknown but later they were named as Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. So we cannot be sure that the exact originality were saved in all those processes. “Trusted disciples” do not help to issue because it was out of their life and control. The revelation which came to Jesus was addition of Torah and was not for all humanbeing but just for Jews. Later gentile followers of Jesus struggled much to make it universal.

Qur’an hold all facts of previous scriptures. So involiable words of God are not corrupted. As I said before that is something interest in wisdom of God. I cannot say why.🤷

Jesus was never a liar. No. no. no. no.

God never deride.

Jesus said " I will want from Father to send Paraclete" to make you remember. So ministery is valid.
 
i am probably alone in this, but i pity those people who put their faith and trust in an inanimate object such as a book.
This is where spirituality must come in. The Spirit or the Word of God is alive and active. A book on its own, isn’t alive nor active.

MJ
 
O to Muslims it is clear. But to us who uses a different logical basis, it is not clear. For Muslims, it is clear the Bible is corrupted because the Quran says so
 
O to Muslims it is clear. But to us who uses a different logical basis, it is not clear. For Muslims, it is clear the Bible is corrupted because the Quran says so
I’ve noticed there is not much focus on Christian prayer when it comes to Christians, but more attention is to the “Christian” Scripture alone. However, prayer is an important and integral part of Islam (5 times a day) etc . But it seems ( to me anyway), that Muslims trying to be tolerant about Christianity rather than respect for the older Faith and understanding its history and prayer life.

After all Jesus is a prophet for Islam but Christians were the first Jesus followers. Respect for elders is very crucial in most eastern religions and Christianity is no exception either. I do know Islam has respect for their elders, so why the bias? Why just Quran having all the answers so to speak about Christianity?

I’m a bit tired so forgive my lack of clarity, if the above makes no sense. 😊

MJ
 
Perhaps, here it may be helpful to explain some Muslim beliefs that informs hasantas’ understanding of the Bible. Unfortunately because of his biased closed mind and his intentions (it is not part of an inter-religious understanding but he is just trying to prove Islam is superior to Christianity), he is unable to escape from the following misconception.

Islam belief is that the Quran is written by God himself and thus, cannot be changed. Therefore the only authentic Quran is an Arabic Quran (see my previous post in the same thread). So, for the Gospels to be translated from its source language would be (to a Muslim) a sacrilege for changing the word of God.

Also, the Muslims have two levels of scriptures. First there is the Quran, which is written by God himself and is the ultimate benchmark against which everything else is measured to determine authenticity. Secondly, there are the Hadiths and the Sunnah. Hadiths are stories to illustrate the way the Prophet implemented the Quran while the Sunnah is considered the biography of the Prophet. Hadiths number 30,000 and each need to be validated against the Quran to determine authenticity. Different scholars therefore have different classifications of authenticity, ranging from sahih (authentic) to mawdu (fabricated), depending on how much they agree with the Quran, or contradict it.

Now, the Muslims see the Gospels as either stories about Jesus or the biography of Jesus. Therefore, the Gospels are at the same level as the Hadiths and the Sunnah. Similarly, parts of the Pentateuch would be the Hadiths & the Sunnahs for Moses. The Bible is therefore not at the same level as the Quran and would need to be validated against the Quran for authenticity as the Muslims have done with the Hadiths.

I hope this explains how Muslims like hasantas view the Gospels. You see, Muslims are in a conundrum. They claim that they supplant Christianity. Which means their scriptures are more authentic than Christian scriptures. But their scriptures differ from Christian scriptures. So, if their scriptures are authentic, then Christian scriptures must have been falsified. But how does something which came earlier (the Bible) falsify something that came later (the Quran). So, the myth of an earlier authentic scriptures which the Jews & Christians falsified emerged.

Muslims believe in four messengers (rasul: these are nabi (prophets, who were sent by God) who delivered written revelations. They were Musa (Moses), with the Torah; Daud (David) with the Zabur (interpreted as the Psalms); Isa (Jesus) with the Gospel (note the singular) and Mohammad with the Quran. Other traditions also include Adam and Ibrahim (Abraham) who were both given scrolls by God. The Torah and the Gospel mentioned here are not the same as those in the Bible today because those in the Bible have been falsified. This stance allows Muslims to accept that the Torah and the Gospels have some elements which are authentic but as a whole cannot be accepted.

I have not been able to trace the nature of the falsification. Some have pointed to the translation of the Bible from the original language as the falsification involved. Some question how can there be four Gospels (after all, Mohammad had only one Sunnah). I have also often asked before we start any debate for a list of which verses in our Gospels have been falsified but has never received any. So, I endure the frustrations of the false verses changing from one debate to another to suit the debater.

As always, none of the falsifications or the existence of an earlier authentic written revelations have been backed up by facts. They seem to be true because only the Quran is authentic and so anything that contradicts the Quran has to be false.
Thank you for your effort to understand Muslims. Muslims do not reject Torah or Gospel. But there are many comments and statements of writers in both OT and NT. Sometimes those comments are recognised as revelation itself. That is assumed as corruption.

I always notice that most of Christians are on the way to reject Islam totaly. But non of Muslim reject Jews or Christians instead Muslims try to awaken about some issues. These preaching are also in both OT and NT. We have not to reject each others. The religion is “advise”. We should advise each others although all differences.
 
Thank you for your effort to understand Muslims. Muslims do not reject Torah or Gospel. But there are many comments and statements of writers in both OT and NT. Sometimes those comments are recognised as revelation itself. That is assumed as corruption.

I always notice that most of Christians are on the way to reject Islam totaly. But non of Muslim reject Jews or Christians instead Muslims try to awaken about some issues. These preaching are also in both OT and NT. We have not to reject each others. The religion is “advise”. We should advise each others although all differences.
We do not reject Islam totally. We worship the same God. 🙂

Does the Quran say most Christians reject Islam?

MJ
 
Does the Quran say most Christians reject Islam?
There are some verses regarding the faith of the People of the Book (meaning the Jews and Christians)

A party of the people of the Book wish to lead you astray. But they shall not lead astray anyone except themselves, and they perceive not. O people of the Book: "Why do you disbelieve in the Ayat (=verse) of Allah, while you bear witness. O people of the Book: “Why do you mix truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?” (3:69-71)

O you who believe! If you obey a group of those who were given the Book, they would render you disbelievers after you have believed! (3:100)
 
One interesting word of note: In Wikipedia, Waraqa is an Assyrian. But this is from an edit done about two years ago. Prior to the edit, he was an Ebionite. So was this from a Muslim editor?

I find also of late, that many of the more recent Muslim postings on Waraqa in most websites were written defensively with the Christian views on Waraqa in mind. Btw, Christian views on Waraqa has emerged from 19th century, maybe earlier.

Some Muslims today get rather sensitive over what they see as the influence of the Christian Waraqa over Mohammad (to Muslims, Christian is Christian: denomination or even heresy is irrelevant: hence Waraqa is Christian even if heretical). It wasn’t like this before: Muslims in centuries past used to revel in Waraqa’s influence over Mohammad as they wish to emphasise their continuity from Christian legacy as Christians revel in our Jewish legacy. Post-colonial times though, some Muslims see any Christian legacy as something to be purged, leading them to lose a lot of their heritage of Jesus traditions.

One example of a threat was some Christian speculations why Mohammad was monogamous with Khatijah. Muslims say that he was very loyal to her and many Muslim scholars also acknowledged that many of Mohammad’s 10+ marriages after Khatijah’s death (scholars disagree on the number but yes, the number exceed the normal Muslim 4 - apparently Mohammad had an exemption from God) was motivated by political alliances and/or pity for widows.

Now, here is the interesting theory: Khatijah and Waraqa lived in Mecca. Khatijah died and Mohammad married two wives (only one consummated and the other was only consummated later as the bride was only aged 6-7 at marriage). Mohammad then fled to Medina where his many many other marriages followed. (Up to this point, it is all factual agreed to by Muslims)

After Khatijah’s death, Waraqa either died (we do not know his date of death) or his influence waned. His influence definitely ended when Mohammad migrated to Medina as there was no record that Waraqa joined him or even that Waraqa became a Muslim.

There is a difference between Mohammad in Mecca and Mohammad in Medina. Other than the fact that he was monogamous in Mecca (ignoring the unconsummated child marriage), ie faithful to Christian concepts of marriage but was ultra-polygamous in Medina, ie no longer following Christian concepts of marriage.

The suras (chapters in the Quran) written/revealed in Mecca are different from the Medina suras in that the Mecca suras tend to be tolerant of Jews and Christians while those warning Muslims not to trust/deal with/befriend/etc Jews and Christians tend to be the Medina suras.

So are all these evidence of Waraqa’s moderating influence on Mohammad while he was in Mecca which was replaced by other influences while he was in Medina? We may never know but you can see why Muslims nowadays can get sensitive over the subject of Waraqa. It will also explain why you sometimes get two very different narratives on Waraqa on Muslims websites: (i) the traditional view praising Waraqa and (ii) the more polemical view written in defense against Christian speculations.

Again, if Waraqa was an orthodox Catholic, would the history of the world be different?
Thank you for your insight. I will look into this topic more
 
Arabic was just a choosing. And using of language is by God directly so that way make it excellent. The power of God’s speak is above all languages. All attributes of God are eternal and Qur’an is direct word of God so Qur’an is miraculous and eternal. That is not just something about Arabic. So non interpretation is equal to original word of God and that make it to read more than others as it is usual for Qur’an.
At Pentecost the Holy Spirit came and gave the ability to speak in different language for all to hear the Gospels. As Jesus said in John 14:26 “…and remind you of all that * told you.”

When you said “The power of God’s speak is above all languages”
My above statement already prove this.
But what you were implying in your earlier comment is that people who do not speak Arabic are somewhat left out.*
 
There are some verses regarding the faith of the People of the Book (meaning the Jews and Christians)

A party of the people of the Book wish to lead you astray. But they shall not lead astray anyone except themselves, and they perceive not. O people of the Book: "Why do you disbelieve in the Ayat (=verse) of Allah, while you bear witness. O people of the Book: “Why do you mix truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?” (3:69-71)

O you who believe! If you obey a group of those who were given the Book, they would render you disbelievers after you have believed! (3:100)
Seems like the Quran doesnt differentiate or explain clearly if there is a difference between Jews and Christians.

MJ
 
There are many doubts about that tomb. It is not clear that the look like was buried in that and also there are many darknesses. There are many Christians who have such doubts about a buried Jesus.

Yourself answered that:
"But he answered him, “Let the dead bury their dead.But you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.” Jesus imply let them to bury “look like” but you …

Jesus was disappeared for a time. I think He was taken by angels because He was seen besides angels.
“Jesus imply let them to bury “look like” but you …”
Do you understand Luke 9? I don’t think you do
 
But did muhammad know and understand Aramaic?
Unlikely as he spent all his life in Arabia, but he may have a passing knowledge of some foreign languages. We know that he traveled to Syria with his uncle on business trips. He himself went there and maybe Egypt on caravans when he worked for his first wife Khatijah. The languages in Syria and Egypt in those days were Syriac and Coptic (Arabic as spoken in North Africa and Fertile Cresent (Palestine, Syria and Iraq) is not native to those areas: it is the language of conquerors). By the time of Mohammad, Syriac was one of the successor language of Aramaic, which in the time of Jesus widely spoken throughout the Fertile Cresent.
 
Seems like the Quran doesnt differentiate or explain clearly if there is a difference between Jews and Christians.

MJ
:(😦 We were always lumped together weren’t we? Maybe again the influence of Waraqa - it is hard to differentiate if your teacher of all things Jewish & Christians is half-way between both
 
:(😦 We were always lumped together weren’t we? Maybe again the influence of Waraqa - it is hard to differentiate if your teacher of all things Jewish & Christians is half-way between both
Makes me wonder what is being taught in the Mosques nowadays in this case.

MJ
 
Makes me wonder what is being taught in the Mosques nowadays in this case.

MJ
Depends on which mosque. Most are actually quite OK and tolerant of Christians but may have a problem with Jews but purely from a political point of view. The problem are many mosques all over the world which were funded by Saudi money. The Saudi political system is a 2-century old symbiosis of the family of Saud and the Wahabist sect, an alliance to further each party’s interest. So, Saudi wealth since 1980’s has been used to fund mosque building all over the world. The clerics would be sent to Saudi Arabia for training and return with Wahabist thinking. That is the virus that inflected much of Islamic world today, from which radical Islam emerged.

So those mosques influenced by Wahabist thinking (not necessarily all formally Wahabist) teaches that Jews (=Zionist) and Christians (=Crusaders) who lived in the decadent West are out to destroy Islam. Unfortunately many mainstream mosques have also absorbed at least small doses of such narratives, particularly those under government control in some countries, with a siege mentality.
 
Depends on which mosque. Most are actually quite OK and tolerant of Christians but may have a problem with Jews but purely from a political point of view. The problem are many mosques all over the world which were funded by Saudi money. The Saudi political system is a 2-century old symbiosis of the family of Saud and the Wahabist sect, an alliance to further each party’s interest. So, Saudi wealth since 1980’s has been used to fund mosque building all over the world. The clerics would be sent to Saudi Arabia for training and return with Wahabist thinking. That is the virus that inflected much of Islamic world today, from which radical Islam emerged.

So those mosques influenced by Wahabist thinking (not necessarily all formally Wahabist) teaches that Jews (=Zionist) and Christians (=Crusaders) who lived in the decadent West are out to destroy Islam. Unfortunately many mainstream mosques have also absorbed at least small doses of such narratives, particularly those under government control in some countries, with a siege mentality.
Tks.

As I mentioned in post 340 it is tolerating Christians rather than focusing on prayer. The Islamic world will need to do better study than depending on a book.

MJ
 
I am not the doctrinal expert but I think the Christian view is very clear: The Advocate is the Holy Spirit and that position has been held by the Christian Church from the earliest days and all Churches today, without significant objections (at least none that I am aware of).

The view by some Muslims that the Advocate is Mohammad is very much a Muslim revisionist view, which serves the purpose of fitting convenient Biblical passages into the Muslim narrative. I believe such a view is not an orthodox Muslim view and only emerged relatively recently: I guess 20th century.
My thoughts too (I bolded in red).
The verses in Jn about the Advocate teaching us about the Father may fit in with the Muslim view of Mohammad bringing Christian’s understanding of God to completion but the other verses relating to the Advocate’s role as the comforter and as our advocate before the Father does not fit into Islamic tenets of faith. If anything, Muslim believes that Jesus is the one who judges not Mohammad.
The red bolded here, is not surprising. Because when Jesus talks about the Holy Spirit/Advocate/Comforter, the Muslim (atleast here in CAF) they skip his words. I don’t think it’s fair at all.

MJ
 
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