The "born again" argument

[jrose90]

First off I just want to apologize for what that woman did. That was extremely inconsiderate of her and I really do think you should have a private conversation with her explaining your beliefs and faith in Christ, otherwise she’ll continue to be ignorant of what’s really going on.
Second, I was raised Baptist, so I’ve heard all about the “born again” deal. Maybe my church taught me differently, but I’ve always considered Catholics Christian. You believe in Christ as the Son of God don’t you? I thought that was the major curriculum you had to subscribe to…But hey, some people just like to be difficult.
Mainly I just wanted to say that I was sorry for the way that woman acted, it was inconsiderate and rude, not only to confront you like that but to try to take on the role as religious leader in your child’s life.
Have you talked to your child about what you believe/are they secure enough in the teachings to not have their faith threatened by people like that? I know that, regardless of the denomination, if a child is unsure, questions can really cause doubt, and that’s really hard to get past for some.
Talk to your kid and to the other kid’s mother and make sure everything is made clear.
I’m glad you seem reasonable about this though, many wouldn’t be reasonable at all.

 

[edwest2]

Need a little help here. I did a search for this topic but came up empty.

My children are attending our local non-denominational Christian school (smaller classes, better overall social message, etc.) in our small town. If there was a Catholic option we’d definitely be there.

The other day a mother of one of the other students was telling me how “I was so close to leading your daughter to Christ at camp this summer”. “I kept asking her if she was ready to accept Jesus into her heart”.

I have to say I was 1) taken aback by her actions and 2) ticked off at her ignorance of our faith. I took the conversation to be we’re not Christian because I’m Catholic. Maybe my interpretation was wrong. But it also got me thinking, what are some of the better arguments to use with a Protestant over the “you have to accept Jesus in your heart” to be Christian. I know it’s part of their evangelization but it’s still irritating that she’s coming after my kids like that.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Christian schools are run by non-Catholic Christians and some of them believe that being “born again” does not apply to Catholics. A Catholic stereotype exists that tells some of them we don’t know our Bible, we don’t actively involve ourselves in witnessing the faith to other people, and even though we go to Church on Sundays, we take our faith as being not with a living person but as in something that happened 2000 years ago.

For Catholics, we have a proper baptism as infants. Later, as young adults, we receive the sacrament of Confirmation. And that should be enough. However, I must admit that after leaving high school in 1973, I did not read my Bible and my Catechism sat somewhere. I took it for granted that my relationship with God would not, and could not, change. But as the secular world kept bombarding Catholic and non-Catholic Christians with porn, abortion propaganda and strip clubs, I was distracted for a bit.

This person may have thought that by your allowing your child to go to this particular school, she somehow now had permission to bring this up. You should politely ask her about her reasons for this. It should be no problem for her to explain her actions to you.

God bless,
Ed

 

[CaptainPicard]

The other day a mother of one of the other students was telling me how “I was so close to leading your daughter to Christ at camp this summer”. “I kept asking her if she was ready to accept Jesus into her heart”.

I have to say I was 1) taken aback by her actions and 2) ticked off at her ignorance of our faith. I took the conversation to be we’re not Christian because I’m Catholic. Maybe my interpretation was wrong. But it also got me thinking, what are some of the better arguments to use with a Protestant over the “you have to accept Jesus in your heart” to be Christian. I know it’s part of their evangelization but it’s still irritating that she’s coming after my kids like that.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Hi gitanesteel,

I think many of these people in this thread are going a little overboard. The fact that she shared what she was doing with you seems to indicate that she was not trying to convert her from Catholicism. She was just doing what she knows to do and what she believes to be a good thing. You have to understand that many evangelical Christians believe that *their own kids *are not Christian until they’ve accepted Jesus, so you shouldn’t assume that they are singling your kid out. She probably thought that you’d be happy that she was sharing Jesus with your kid. I don’t see any indication that she thought that you weren’t Christian. She may have overstepped her boundaries by taking it upon herself to evangelize another person’s kid-- even from the standpoint of a nondenomination Christian – but her intentions seemed to be good

Many Protestants believe that you aren’t a Christian until you’ve made a profession of faith and accepted Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior. Now, obviously believing in Jesus and accepting Him as your Savior isn’t a bad thing – it’s something that everybody should do as they mature in their faith. However, Catholics differ with these sorts of Protestants in that we believe that a child becomes a Christian when he is baptized – any later profession of faith is merely a sign of his maturing in the Christian life. Also, many Protestants believe that once you’ve accepted Christ as your savior that you are guaranteed to go to heaven. Catholics believe that you can become estranged from God and lose salvation by sinning or losing your faith.

If I were you, I’d just make sure to know your Catholic faith and understand the theology of the camp you’re sending your kids to. If need be, you can correct any errors that they are telling your kids. If you want to bring it up with the women, I would just thank her for sharing Christ with your kid and, in a very friendly manner, explain to her the differences between what Catholics believe and what they believe. I would not get mad or defensive around her as I don’t think that would be in the least bit helpful.

 

[rev_kevin]

If it’s any comfort, they probably weren’t singling out your child - all the kids are supposed to make their Altar Call at Bible Camp, if they haven’t done it before - that’s how it’s done. They were making their own kids do it, and they were hoping your daughter would join the group. Maybe just teach your child to say, “I’ve already got Jesus in my heart, but thanks for asking!”

You couldn’t be more wrong. We do not make our kids do it, its up to the child to accept Christ or not. All the kids are not supposed to make their Altar Call as Bible Camp and thats not how its done. Now what if a non-Catholic kid went to a Catholic school, the roll’s would be reversed. The Catholic would be trying to turn the child to be Catholic. Its like the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[rev_kevin]

Next time say, “Now that you mention it, the Lord has laid it upon my heart to take the next step, to lead you to his body the Church. Have you heard of the Four Marks of the Church?” and take it from there.

Now wouldn’t this be doing the same thing you are condemning the non-Catholic of doing? Don’t do it to us but we can do it to you. Seems like a double standard.

 

[Apollos]

Now wouldn’t this be doing the same thing you are condemning the non-Catholic of doing? Don’t do it to us but we can do it to you. Seems like a double standard.

No, not at all. Ripping an impressionable child out of the bosom of the one true Church that Christ founded and seducing a her with a different gospel really doesn’t compare with revealing to an adult the fullness of truth to be found in Catholicism. Do you think we should keep our mouths shut out of fear of hypocrisy?

 

[lutherlic]

You couldn’t be more wrong. We do not make our kids do it, its up to the child to accept Christ or not. All the kids are not supposed to make their Altar Call as Bible Camp and thats not how its done. **Now what if a non-Catholic kid went to a Catholic school, the roll’s would be reversed. The Catholic would be trying to turn the child to be Catholic. **Its like the pot calling the kettle black.

Only by our example. No Catholic school I am aware of tries “to turn the child to be Catholic.”

 

[rev_kevin]

Only by our example. No Catholic school I am aware of tries “to turn the child to be Catholic.”

You have got to be kidding. You are going to tell me that if a child that was a non-Catholic went to a Catholic school they would not try to convert them to be a Catholic.

 

[rev_kevin]

No, not at all. Ripping an impressionable child out of the bosom of the one true Church that Christ founded and seducing a her with a different gospel really doesn’t compare with revealing to an adult the fullness of truth to be found in Catholicism. Do you think we should keep our mouths shut out of fear of hypocrisy?

I don’t see it as ripping the child out of the bosom of the one true church because I don’t believe it is the one true church founded by Christ. Now if the parents didn’t want their child exposed to a non-Catholic religion they should not have put the child there in the first place. There are public schools the child could go to if the parents don’t like what is being taught about religion. Why should we keep our mouths shut? We believe in our religion just as strongly as you believe your’s.

 

[SalomeBintullah]

You have got to be kidding. You are going to tell me that if a child that was a non-Catholic went to a Catholic school they would not try to convert them to be a Catholic.

Definitely not. We would consider such a thing to be deeply disrespectful of that family’s beliefs. Many Catholic school websites I’ve seen openly state that they welcome children of non-Catholic backgrounds, and that the school is Catholic in nature and theology, but absolutely no efforts will be made to persuade the child to leave his/her family’s faith.

 

[jmcrae]

You have got to be kidding. You are going to tell me that if a child that was a non-Catholic went to a Catholic school they would not try to convert them to be a Catholic.

Actually, they wouldn’t. Now, at the same time, the non-Catholic child would be expected to attend Religion classes, and any religious events going on at the school during school hours, but no one would approach the child to invite them to go to RCIA, or anything like that - unless the child started to ask, “How can I start to be allowed to receive the Sacraments?” - and then, if the child asked, then someone would explain the RCIA process to the child, and invite them to ask their parents permission to attend an RCIA program for children and teens.

 

[rev_kevin]

Actually, they wouldn’t. Now, at the same time, the non-Catholic child would be expected to attend Religion classes, and any religious events going on at the school during school hours, but no one would approach the child to invite them to go to RCIA, or anything like that - unless the child started to ask, “How can I start to be allowed to receive the Sacraments?” - and then, if the child asked, then someone would explain the RCIA process to the child, and invite them to ask their parents permission to attend an RCIA program for children and teens.

Sorry not buying this because I have seen different.

 

[rev_kevin]

Definitely not. We would consider such a thing to be deeply disrespectful of that family’s beliefs. Many Catholic school websites I’ve seen openly state that they welcome children of non-Catholic backgrounds, and that the school is Catholic in nature and theology, but absolutely no efforts will be made to persuade the child to leave his/her family’s faith.

Websites please.

 

[SalomeBintullah]

Sorry not buying this because I have seen different.

I’m sorry you’ve seen Catholics trying to 'convert" non-Catholic children in our schools. I attended Catholic school for many years alongside several non-Catholic students (including many foreign-exchange students from Asia who were probably not even Christian) and this was never an issue. In fact, one Protestant girl wasn’t even required to participate in our religion classes at all. She just sat there and quietly worked on her homework.

 

[SalomeBintullah]

Websites please.

Here is one example that I can remember off the top of my head, St. Anne Elementary School in Sumter, SC:

*Does my child have to be Catholic to attend St. Anne Catholic School?
No. We welcome all students regardless of religious beliefs. In fact, approximately 30% of our student body is not Catholic. We view each and every one of our students as a child of God, and we believe in nurturing each student to his or her full potential regardless of religious affiliation.

Our family is not Catholic. Will you try to convert my child to Catholicism?
No. Our school’s foundation is firmly rooted in the Catholic tradition and the curriculum for the students’ religion classes is chosen by the Diocese of Charleston. However, an important part of the Catholic School philosophy of education is a belief that the parent’s role is primary in the raising and educating of the child. Consistent with this, we respect the parents’ right and responsibility to make choices about matters of faith and religion for their child. We do not put pressure on non-Catholics to become Catholic.

In general, our non-Catholic families tell us that (a) the faith-filled environment and education at St. Anne School helps their children grow into the kind of human beings they want their children to be, and (b) the foundations of Catholicism and their family’s particular denomination share a great deal in common. We believe that there is much more that unites Catholicism and the different Christian denominations than divides us. On those points where we differ, we hope that you will see these differences as opportunities for sharing and discussing your faith with your children.

We want to communicate with you as fully as possible about the religious aspects of our school so that you can make an informed decision about whether the environment and education at St. Anne is compatible with the way you want your child raised and educated. Toward this end, we have provided an overview of “Spiritual Life” at St. Anne elsewhere on this website. Please feel free to ask us about any specific questions or concerns you may have. *

I will have to search the internet for more.

 

[rev_kevin]

Here is one example that I can remember off the top of my head, St. Anne Elementary School in Sumter, SC:

*Does my child have to be Catholic to attend St. Anne Catholic School?
No. We welcome all students regardless of religious beliefs. In fact, approximately 30% of our student body is not Catholic. We view each and every one of our students as a child of God, and we believe in nurturing each student to his or her full potential regardless of religious affiliation.

Our family is not Catholic. Will you try to convert my child to Catholicism?
No. Our school’s foundation is firmly rooted in the Catholic tradition and the curriculum for the students’ religion classes is chosen by the Diocese of Charleston. However, an important part of the Catholic School philosophy of education is a belief that the parent’s role is primary in the raising and educating of the child. Consistent with this, we respect the parents’ right and responsibility to make choices about matters of faith and religion for their child. We do not put pressure on non-Catholics to become Catholic.

In general, our non-Catholic families tell us that (a) the faith-filled environment and education at St. Anne School helps their children grow into the kind of human beings they want their children to be, and (b) the foundations of Catholicism and their family’s particular denomination share a great deal in common. We believe that there is much more that unites Catholicism and the different Christian denominations than divides us. On those points where we differ, we hope that you will see these differences as opportunities for sharing and discussing your faith with your children.

We want to communicate with you as fully as possible about the religious aspects of our school so that you can make an informed decision about whether the environment and education at St. Anne is compatible with the way you want your child raised and educated. Toward this end, we have provided an overview of “Spiritual Life” at St. Anne elsewhere on this website. Please feel free to ask us about any specific questions or concerns you may have. *

I will have to search the internet for more.

What something says and what something does are 2 different things. It could say they won’t but that don’t mean they won’t.

 

[SalomeBintullah]

What something says and what something does are 2 different things. It could say they won’t but that don’t mean they won’t.

Honestly, if you’re determined to believe that there is some dark kind of Catholic school conspiracy to snatch non-Catholic students away from their family’s faith, no evidence I can present will convince you otherwise. My fiance was raised Episcopalian and attended Catholic school until he middle school. No one tried to convert him. I have attended four different Catholic schools alongside several non-Catholics. Their faith was respected.

 

[Patrick_Joshua]

The other day a mother of one of the other students was telling me how “I was so close to leading your daughter to Christ at camp this summer”. “I kept asking her if she was ready to accept Jesus into her heart”.

Tell this women, that she should stop dwelling in heresy, and ask her if she is ready to accept the One,Holy,Catholic and Apostolic Church set up by Christ.

 

[Apollos]

I don’t see it as ripping the child out of the bosom of the one true church because I don’t believe it is the one true church founded by Christ. Now if the parents didn’t want their child exposed to a non-Catholic religion they should not have put the child there in the first place. There are public schools the child could go to if the parents don’t like what is being taught about religion. Why should we keep our mouths shut? We believe in our religion just as strongly as you believe your’s.

Well I’m confused. The OP accused the other mother of ignorance. I suggested counter-evangelism. You called it hypocrisy. I maintained integrity demanded it. Now you’re saying it’s unfair. Where does that get us?

 

[look3467]

Being born again is a process requiring one’s understanding of what it means.
The word “again” denotes as one being in a dead state, of which a rebirth is the “life” state: as again being born.

Jesus is the life not Adam. Adam brought death to our spirits by creation of the flesh.
Jesus brought life to our dead created state by rebirth, or again, being born.

I was a Catholic and my original faith, that I always had, and have, have taken me through many studies of differing beliefs and it has not failed me yet.

What I am saying is that non-denominational churches teach Jesus as coming into one’s heart, and recreating a new spirit of life.

I for one were one of those who thought that Catholics where not going to make it unless they accepted Jesus as their own personal Savior.

That was just the view, and the teachings of the protestants.

I have since grown, I believe, matured in the spirit, through all my trials and errors of understandings, that that is not the case, though true because Jesus is the Savior regardless of any view.

I now regard all believers in God as potentially saved, because Jesus died and paid the price for all, and not just a few.

Potentially saved meaning that if one should come to the saving knowledge of our Lord and Savior and should accept His sacrifice for our sins as our own righteousness, then we are, at that moment saved.

Where as, if that knowledge is postponed till our physical death, then and only then shall we be saved, for then we shall come face to face with Jesus.

There is no harm in accepting Jesus as one’s savior and as our personal God, for that is also true in the Catholic belief.

Teach your children what that means and they shall not have any fear of hell, for a child that is born of God has God at their back, and hell no where to be found, unless…God is not able to keep them.

And I know, you know the answer to that !

Blessings, AJ