The Boy In The Striped Pajamas

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I browsed this thread because I liked the movie. Never thought I would see an abortion debate between Catholics.

But reading both sides I am probably 95% with the remaining Catholics on this thread and 5%^ with OneTrueCathApos.

Where I am with her is…

As with any comparison between two similar objects, the comparison breaks down at some point (unless the objects are identical). Where I think the comparison breaks down is that I would not compare the mother getting the abortion to the nazis killing Jews. I would not extend this same slack to the abortion doctors though.

In every other similarity as pointed pointed out in this thread the comparison is valid. Well, there may be other points where the comparison breaks down, but these would be very minor and I haven’t thought of them.

Editing I can think of a couple. In abortion the human life that is being killed is not visible while in the holocaust the human life was visible. So what. And the methods in the holocaust were more protracted… you had to round 'em up, put 'em in camps and kill 'em…while with abortion it is nice and easy…one trip to the abortion doctor. So what again.

OTCA…do you agree that abortion in the United States now is the killing of innocent human life on a massive scale protected by the state? Do you also agree that the holocaust was the killing of innocent human life on a massive scale protected by the state in Nazi Europe?

If you agree that on these two points the comparison is valid, then the points where they do not compare are very minor compared to the overriding point of similarity.
 
NotTooSmart said:
In every other similarity as pointed pointed out in this thread the comparison is valid. Well, there may be other points where the comparison breaks down, but these would be very minor and I haven’t thought of them.
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Upon reflection more than 20 minutes later (past the point where I can edit my post), probably the biggest point where the comparison breaks down is intent.

The intent of the holocaust was to eliminate the Jewish race from the planet. Whatever the intent of abortion is, it is not to eliminate the unborn from the planet.

And I thought of one reason to just be careful when comparing abortion to the holocaust. The Jewish people are understandably very sensitive on this point and to them any comparison of the holocaust to anything else demeans their historical suffering. Not that the comparison is not valid, just be careful and sensitive to this one concern.
 
The Christian ethic that prevails is premeditation. As opposed to self-defense and war, a premeditated murder is by Christian definition evil.
  1. The extermination of Jews in the Holocaust certainly was premeditated.
  2. An abortion is not a spur-of-the-moment action, and premeditated as well.
  3. [Controversial] Capital punishment is premeditated, and in our society with the capability of imprisonment and safety to society, a safe (and cheaper) alternative.
To compare any of these historically is to lessen the heinous nature of at least 1 and 2. But ethically and morally, a premeditated murder is a premeditated murder, no matter what the context. I’m not Catholic, but murder is a mortal sin - and there are no distinctions among mortal sins.
 
NotTooSmart said:
The intent of the holocaust was to eliminate the Jewish race from the planet. Whatever the intent of abortion is, it is not to eliminate the unborn from the planet.
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Ummm, where do you believe the unborn are living? Another planet? Outerspace? Where?
 
NotTooSmart said:
I browsed this thread because I liked the movie. Never thought I would see an abortion debate between Catholics.

But reading both sides I am probably 95% with the remaining Catholics on this thread and 5%^ with OneTrueCathApos.

Where I am with her is…

As with any comparison between two similar objects, the comparison breaks down at some point (unless the objects are identical). Where I think the comparison breaks down is that I would not compare the mother getting the abortion to the nazis killing Jews. I would not extend this same slack to the abortion doctors though.

In every other similarity as pointed pointed out in this thread the comparison is valid. Well, there may be other points where the comparison breaks down, but these would be very minor and I haven’t thought of them.

Editing I can think of a couple. In abortion the human life that is being killed is not visible while in the holocaust the human life was visible. So what. And the methods in the holocaust were more protracted… you had to round 'em up, put 'em in camps and kill 'em…while with abortion it is nice and easy…one trip to the abortion doctor. So what again.

OTCA…do you agree that abortion in the United States now is the killing of innocent human life on a massive scale protected by the state? Do you also agree that the holocaust was the killing of innocent human life on a massive scale protected by the state in Nazi Europe?

If you agree that on these two points the comparison is valid, then the points where they do not compare are very minor compared to the overriding point of similarity.
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The difference between the Nazi’s murders and abortion on demand is that with abortion, it’s the mothers who are in control, and it is they who are ordering the murderer of their own children.

If you’re looking for a truer comparison, I guess it would have to be a Nazi SS official killing his own daughter because the girl’s mother was a Jew. And wouldn’t we all consider that SS official especially sadistic in an organization full of the sadistic?
 
Shoshana said:
Code:
Catholics are pro-life, never pro-choice. By believing in pro-choice, you believe that the woman has the right to choose abortion.
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I am sorry for the mistake. Pro-life I am. I meant pro-life. 😊
 
OneTrueCathApos said:
. Do you think a 2 week old sac that isnt even a baby,
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Hello OnrTruecathApos

There is a lovely rosary you can pray here. The site also has some lovely prayers for the unborn. I ask you join us in these prayers, and I will pray that your heart and mind will be open to a better understanding of your faith. Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. He was a baby once.
 
LondonIrish said:
Hello OnrTruecathApos

There is a lovely rosary you can pray here. The site also has some lovely prayers for the unborn. I ask you join us in these prayers, and I will pray that your heart and mind will be open to a better understanding of your faith. Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. He was a baby once.
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LondonIrish,
Thank you but I recite the Rosary AND the Chaplet every day. I am not for abortion so what is the problem you are having with me? Jesus knows me and that’s all I care about. I answer to no one but Him. No one here can judge me for saying I do not compare the Holocaust to abortion. God will judge me. Some of you here are a little extreme…relax.
 
NotTooSmart said:
Do you believe that the purpose of abortion is to eliminate all of the unborn from the planet earth?
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People make many excuses for the killing of the innocent. The root of any excuse is to rid the planet of a new and growing life. Usually the excuse is couched in terms of what is convenient to those already born. Some who already born do not want a life, or lives, to inconvenience them in some way. So the “solution” is to rid the unborn from the planet, entirely.

For example, “population control”, is nothing but killing a life for the express purpose of keeping the unborn from being born and populating the planet earth. Like this, from the so-called “International Humanis and Ethical Union”:
  1. Legal Abortion on Request
    Since the children born should preferably be wanted children, and since many women are faced with unwanted pregnancies as a result of unavailable, omitted or failed contraception, medical abortion should be available to women on request as a fundamental human right and as an additional means of population control.
You see, the unborn are seen as a potential inconvenience to the world and therefore, it is a “human right” to rid them from the planet before they become that inconvenience.

The Catholic view is that all human life has a right to live. Views such as the above couch the unborn in terms that identify them as something less than human. An inconvenience. Disposable. We disagree strongly with this view of human life.
 
How can something that is “unborn” as you claim, ever be called a life if it isn’t born yet? I would rephrase this.
 
OneTrueCathApos said:
How can something that is “unborn” as you claim, ever be called a life if it isn’t born yet? I would rephrase this.
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Code:
Why would you think that an embryo is not alive? Cells cannot multiply without being alive. This is another oxymoron.
 
Life begins at conception. Two live cells join, and grow from there.

The Church has always taught this.

The Catechism tells us:

2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.
 
OneTrueCathApos said:
How can something that is “unborn” as you claim, ever be called a life if it isn’t born yet? I would rephrase this.
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Hello OneTrueCathApos,

Oh my goodness, are you really asking how ‘‘something’’ as yet unborn can ‘‘ever be called a life’’? Life begins at the moment of conception, and is a gift from God. The life given, is as real as yours or mine right this moment. The unborn child of God is as much a person and alive as you and I right now. As a catholic, my heart is heavy reading these posts. I will pray before the Blessed Sacrament tonight for you that your understanding of the catholic faith will grow and for all mothers, and those nestling in the wombs of their mothers everywhere. All people everywhere, but most especially catholics are called to witness to the sacredness of life, from the moment of conception and we must fight for the rights of the unborn, because they only have us to fight for them.
 
OneTrueCathApos said:
How can something that is “unborn” as you claim, ever be called a life if it isn’t born yet? I would rephrase this.
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Why are you pro-life if you don’t think that the unborn are alive?

FWIW, the unborn are alive. They are human. They are persons. They just aren’t born yet.

You say that you understand that life begins at conception, but everything else you say shows that you believe that life begins at birth.
 
OneTrueCathApos said:
How can something that is “unborn” as you claim, ever be called a life if it isn’t born yet? I would rephrase this.
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Biology time. The unborn are either animate or inanimate. They can not be both.

Abortionists do not even claim that the unborn are not animate. Because it is a biological fact that they are alive.

I hate to say this, but from now on you have absolutely zero credibility in telling me or any Protestant what the Catholic church believes.
 
RebeccaJ said:
You see, the unborn are seen as a potential inconvenience to the world and therefore, it is a “human right” to rid them from the planet before they become that inconvenience.

The Catholic view is that all human life has a right to live. Views such as the above couch the unborn in terms that identify them as something less than human. An inconvenience. Disposable. We disagree strongly with this view of human life.
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Abortion as birth control is especially heinous.

Still there is a slight difference between this and abortion as a part of a nationwide policy to eradicate the unborn from the nation and ultimately the planet.

My only point is that there are legitimate reasons why somebody can be 100% pro-life and stop short of choosing to compare abortion the the historical event known as “The Holocaust”…

A belief that the unborn are not alive is not one of them. To me the most compelling would be a respect for what the Jewish nation has suffered.

This does not mean that abortion is not a holocaust in its own right. One definition of holocaust is:
a mass slaughter of people
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I would say that state sanctioned killing of innocent human life on a massive scale qualifies as “a mass slaughter of people”, wouldn’t you?
 
NotTooSmart said:
Abortion as birth control is especially heinous.

Still there is a slight difference between this and abortion as a part of a nationwide policy to eradicate the unborn from the nation and ultimately the planet.

My only point is that there are legitimate reasons why somebody can be 100% pro-life and stop short of choosing to compare abortion the the historical event known as “The Holocaust”…

A belief that the unborn are not alive is not one of them. To me the most compelling would be a respect for what the Jewish nation has suffered.

This does not mean that abortion is not a holocaust in its own right. One definition of holocaust is:

I would say that state sanctioned killing of innocent human life on a massive scale qualifies as “a mass slaughter of people”, wouldn’t you?
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I agree. 🙂
 
NotTooSmart said:
Abortion as birth control is especially heinous.

Still there is a slight difference between this and abortion as a part of a nationwide policy to eradicate the unborn from the nation and ultimately the planet.

My only point is that there are legitimate reasons why somebody can be 100% pro-life and stop short of choosing to compare abortion the the historical event known as “The Holocaust”…

A belief that the unborn are not alive is not one of them. To me the most compelling would be a respect for what the Jewish nation has suffered.

This does not mean that abortion is not a holocaust in its own right. One definition of holocaust is:

I would say that state sanctioned killing of innocent human life on a massive scale qualifies as “a mass slaughter of people”, wouldn’t you?
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Code:
Just as an aside, there was 6,000,000 jews killed in the holocaust, no denying that. But the focus is only on the Jews usually. There were 6,000,000 other people killed in that Holocaust, and no one ever mentions them. I also think that is an insult to these people. Not a word usually is spoken about THEM. They seem to have been forgotten.

Slaughter it was to be sure…like cattle. I have no problem thinking that the abortion mills that exist throughout the world (and the chemical abortions are not even counted here)…yes, I would call that a holocaust. If mother Theresa uses it, if JP2 uses it. I have no problem using it. If it offends the Jews, well, they have to get over the fact that holocausts existed before and after them. And what may offend them more is that the aortion rate is just as high there in Israel and all Jews throughout the whole world, so, what they are doing to their unborn is no different than what happened to their ancestors a generation ago.

My two cents.
 
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