The Byzantine View of Mary

[William777]

I was wondering if someone might help me to understand what the Byzantine view of the Blessed Virgin Mary is?

Please note - I am Roman Catholic, but have been attending Byzantine masses.

I have heard (through some highly unreliable sources) the Eastern belief is that the BVM is a Goddess. I know, however, she is viewed as the Theotokos, i.e. the God Bearer, and the Byzantine mass is approved by the Vatican - so I dont know that the Pope’s would have approved such a view, so I’m just wondering if someone could please clarify the distinction (if any) between the Roman view vs the Byzantine view of the BVM/Theotokos?

Again, I want to offer up my usual disclaimer, and say I hope I havent offended anyone in the asking. I am just trying to better understand and respect everyone’s religious sensibilities.

All help and good will is appreciated!

 

[RyanBlack]

I was wondering if someone might help me to understand what the Byzantine view of the Blessed Virgin Mary is?

Please note - I am Roman Catholic, but have been attending Byzantine masses.

I have heard (through some highly unreliable sources) the Eastern belief is that the BVM is a Goddess. I know, however, she is viewed as the Theotokos, i.e. the God Bearer, and the Byzantine mass is approved by the Vatican - so I dont know that the Pope’s would have approved such a view, so I’m just wondering if someone could please clarify the distinction (if any) between the Roman view vs the Byzantine view of the BVM/Theotokos?

Again, I want to offer up my usual disclaimer, and say I hope I havent offended anyone in the asking. I am just trying to better understand and respect everyone’s religious sensibilities.

All help and good will is appreciated!

Eastern Christians absolutely do not believe the Theotokos to be a goddess. While we have our own spirituality and liturgical traditions with respect to the Theotokos, the beliefs are the same.

 

[ConstantineTG]

If you ask me, the West is more in danger of Marian Worship than the East.

 

[futureKC123]

I agree completely! The West is in more danger of something that would be heretical. That being said, both the East and the West have wonderfully beautiful traditions to celebrate the Theotokos. I would encourage you to look up the Akathist hymn and the Paraklesis. The East also has a TON of wonderworking icons of the Virgin.
Good luck!
FKC

 

[The_Idiot]

William777

You state you have been attending Byzantine Liturgies In these you must have noticed how often the Theotokos is mentioned .

Why not approach the Priest of the Byzantine Parish and ask for his help in understanding the different emphasis placed on the Theotokos in both Churches ?

 

[tafan]

If you ask me, the West is more in danger of Marian Worship than the East.

Well then the danger of Marian Worship in the East is extremely low, below zero. Because I see no evidence of Marian Worship in the western church. None, nodda, zip. We need more devotion to Mary, not scare tactics that these devotions are somehow going to lead one into the sin of idolatry.

 

[babochka]

Well then the danger of Marian Worship in the East is extremely low, below zero. Because I see no evidence of Marian Worship in the western church. None, nodda, zip. We need more devotion to Mary, not scare tactics that these devotions are somehow going to lead one into the sin of idolatry.

I think you’re being naive. I have no problem with legitimate devotion to the Blessed Mother, but misunderstanding of that legitimate devotion can and does lead to idolatry. A few years ago, the local paper ran an article on a local shrine to Our Lady of Guadeloupe. I had to cringe when I read a quote from one of the interviewees when he said “The Virgin is our God.” Sadly, this perpetuates the stereotype among some that this is an acceptable Catholic view.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Well then the danger of Marian Worship in the East is extremely low, below zero. Because I see no evidence of Marian Worship in the western church. None, nodda, zip. We need more devotion to Mary, not scare tactics that these devotions are somehow going to lead one into the sin of idolatry.

I go with babochka here. There are legitimate dangers. I’ve heard people say that the only way to heaven is to pray the Rosary. While I agree the Church herself does not teach this, there is poor catechesis all around and people themselves are taking their devotion to the extreme, that is crossing that line into idolatry.

 

[tafan]

I go with babochka here. There are legitimate dangers. I’ve heard people say that the only way to heaven is to pray the Rosary. While I agree the Church herself does not teach this, there is poor catechesis all around and people themselves are taking their devotion to the extreme, that is crossing that line into idolatry.

Strange, I know quite a few folks who pray the rosary daily, I see lots of other various marian devotions; none of these people say or do anything that comes close to idolatry. I hear stories lile your vague “I’ve heard people say” and I think that the myth is just becoming the reality in peoples’ minds. Without fail, the person with the greater devotion to Mary always are the most devout, attend daily mass, frequent confessions, etc, etc. Mary leads them to Christ each and everytime.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Strange, I know quite a few folks who pray the rosary daily, I see lots of other various marian devotions; none of these people say or do anything that comes close to idolatry. I hear stories lile your vague “I’ve heard people say” and I think that the myth is just becoming the reality in peoples’ minds. Without fail, the person with the greater devotion to Mary always are the most devout, attend daily mass, frequent confessions, etc, etc. Mary leads them to Christ each and everytime.

Forum rules prevent me from stating a specific group. I hope you understand that.

 

[Dorothy]

I go with babochka here. There are legitimate dangers. I’ve heard people say that the only way to heaven is to pray the Rosary. While I agree the Church herself does not teach this, there is poor catechesis all around and people themselves are taking their devotion to the extreme, that is crossing that line into idolatry.

It seems to me that it is the articulation that some western Catholics use (as you mention above) that can turn people off to what is true about such prayer. Prayer leads us to heaven. The Rosary is a prayer. In the Rosary we meditate on the mysteries of the life of Our Lord Jesus Christ, holding Mary’s hand, so to speak. She knew Him so well.

 

[ConstantineTG]

It seems to me that it is the articulation that some western Catholics use (as you mention above) that can turn people off to what is true about such prayer. Prayer leads us to heaven. The Rosary is a prayer. In the Rosary we meditate on the mysteries of the life of Our Lord Jesus Christ, holding Mary’s hand, so to speak. She knew Him so well.

But to clam it as the only way is of course idolatry. The only way to heaven is Jesus, as he is the way, the truth and the life.

 

[JRKH]

Strange, I know quite a few folks who pray the rosary daily, I see lots of other various marian devotions; none of these people say or do anything that comes close to idolatry. I hear stories lile your vague “I’ve heard people say” and I think that the myth is just becoming the reality in peoples’ minds. Without fail, the person with the greater devotion to Mary always are the most devout, attend daily mass, frequent confessions, etc, etc. Mary leads them to Christ each and everytime.

Tafan…
Some years back, in a discussion right here on CAF, I had a person - listed as Catholic in his profile and pretty clearly Catholic by all evidence, tell me straight out that I should not be praying to the Father. That I should be praying to Mary. I was accused of presumption, thinking that I was good enough to talk directly to the Father.
He said this even though I had pointed out to him Jesus own words regarding how we should pray.
I wish now I had kept the thread - but it was so long ago, I’d never be able to find it.

Since then, I have been involved in a number of "praying to Mary (and the Saints) threads and been taken to task for my views on the matter even though Church teaching firmly supports the views that I present.

I don’t mention this to say that such things are prevalent but then again…

It points out that there are indeed people who take things to inappropriate levels.

I don’t mean to say that such things are prevalent, but neither are they, as you say, “None, nodda, zip”.

Peace
James

 

[Dorothy]

But to clam it as the only way is of course idolatry. The only way to heaven is Jesus, as he is the way, the truth and the life.

That is why I said it was the articulation that some Catholics use that causes misunderstanding.

P.S. Our Lady knows best of all that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.

 

[babochka]

Strange, I know quite a few folks who pray the rosary daily, I see lots of other various marian devotions; none of these people say or do anything that comes close to idolatry. I hear stories lile your vague “I’ve heard people say” and I think that the myth is just becoming the reality in peoples’ minds. Without fail, the person with the greater devotion to Mary always are the most devout, attend daily mass, frequent confessions, etc, etc. Mary leads them to Christ each and everytime.

Of course, the vast majority of people with Marian devotions do not practice idolatry. I also pray the rosary daily. It does happen, though. I did not give a vague story, but a specific example:

A few years ago, the local paper ran an article on a local shrine to Our Lady of Guadeloupe. I had to cringe when I read a quote from one of the interviewees when he said “The Virgin is our God.”

We all know that this is not in keeping with church teaching, but it was the interpretation and understanding of this particular man.

For what it’s worth, and back to the main topic of the thread, the Moleben to the Theotokos includes the line “Most Holy Mother of God, save us!” If a person is not firmly grounded in the teaching of the church, this line can be confusing and extremely problematic.

 

[ConstantineTG]

That is why I said it was the articulation that some Catholics use that causes misunderstanding.

Definitely. But it is not mere understanding. It seems that some devotions have become too much that Jesus has become this unknowable, unreachable person that we can only approach and know through Mary. That relationship is true only of the Father and the Son. The Father is unknowable and unreachable except for (and through) the Son. But such is not true when applied to the Son and Mary.

P.S. Our Lady knows best of all that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.

I’m not contesting this. But the way people have been approaching it needs more guidance from the Church. Overall, there is a lack of catechesis that needs to be addressed.

 

[babochka]

I’m not contesting this. But the way people have been approaching it needs more guidance from the Church. Overall, there is a lack of catechesis that needs to be addressed.

 

[TimothyH]

So far, the only thing I learned about Byzantine views on Mary is that Eastern Catholics think Latin Catholics worship Mary, or that many teeter on the edge.

I’m glad to know that this is the extent of Byzantine Marian theology. That’s deep.

Thanks!!!

-Tim-

 

[William777]

William777

You state you have been attending Byzantine Liturgies In these you must have noticed how often the Theotokos is mentioned .

Why not approach the Priest of the Byzantine Parish and ask for his help in understanding the different emphasis placed on the Theotokos in both Churches ?

I’ve tried it, but it didn’t really work out.

I have Asperger’s Syndrome, and sometimes I think I come across as arrogant, although that is not my intention.

In the movie, “A Beautiful Mind”, when John Nash is told he won the Nobel Prize, he responds, “I’ve reached a level of honesty that borders on stupidity.” Sometimes I tend to be about as sharp as a pool ball - and, well, when you’re this blunt, you kind of get taken for wrong a lot.

 

[ConstantineTG]

So far, the only thing I learned about Byzantine views on Mary is that Eastern Catholics think Latin Catholics worship Mary, or that many teeter on the edge.

I’m glad to know that this is the extent of Byzantine Marian theology. That’s deep.

Thanks!!!

-Tim-

This is the extent of Byzantine Marian Theology:

It is truly right to bless thee, O Theotokos,
ever blessed, and most pure, and the Mother of our God.
More honorable than the cherubim,
and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim.
Without corruption thou gavest birth to God the Word.
True Theotokos, we magnify thee.