The Byzantine View of Mary

[babochka]

So far, the only thing I learned about Byzantine views on Mary is that Eastern Catholics think Latin Catholics worship Mary, or that many teeter on the edge.

I’m glad to know that this is the extent of Byzantine Marian theology. That’s deep.

Thanks!!!

-Tim-

You’re right. Nobody actually answered your question. Sorry. I’ve got to get the kids some lunch, but if nobody answers you by then, I’ll try to take some time to type out an answer.

 

[Richca]

I think you’re being naive. I have no problem with legitimate devotion to the Blessed Mother, but misunderstanding of that legitimate devotion can and does lead to idolatry. A few years ago, the local paper ran an article on a local shrine to Our Lady of Guadeloupe. I had to cringe when I read a quote from one of the interviewees when he said “The Virgin is our God.” Sadly, this perpetuates the stereotype among some that this is an acceptable Catholic view.

What is your point here? Are you saying that we shouldn’t say anything about Mary because that might lead to a misunderstanding? With this logic, maybe the early church shouldn’t have said anything about Christ because as we know there were some heretical sects who either didn’t believe in the divinity of Christ or didn’t believe he was a true man.

 

[Richca]

But to clam it as the only way is of course idolatry. The only way to heaven is Jesus, as he is the way, the truth and the life.

You claim that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and indeed he is. But the way that Jesus came to us was only through Mary. Jesus once said “I have given you a model to follow, so that as I have done for you, you should also do” ( John 13:15). Thus, as Jesus came to us and was given to us through his mother, we should follow his example and go to him through his mother Mary.

Now, though there may be many paths and roads that lead to heaven, I for one, would rather follow Jesus’ example and go to him through the same way he came to us and that way is Mary.

 

[ConstantineTG]

You claim that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and indeed he is. But the way that Jesus came to us was only through Mary. Jesus once said “I have given you a model to follow, so that as I have done for you, you should also do” ( John 13:15). Thus, as Jesus came to us and was given to us through his mother, we should follow his example and go to him through his mother Mary.

Now, though there may be many paths and roads that lead to heaven, I for one, would rather follow Jesus’ example and go to him through the same way he came to us and that way is Mary.

Isn’t that what the Holy Spirit is for?

 

[TimothyH]

This is the extent of Byzantine Marian Theology:

It is truly right to bless thee, O Theotokos,
ever blessed, and most pure, and the Mother of our God.
More honorable than the cherubim,
and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim.
Without corruption thou gavest birth to God the Word.
True Theotokos, we magnify thee.

*Glory be to the Father (+),
and to the Son,
and to the Holy Spirit,
now and ever and forever. Amen.

Lord, have mercy. (x3)

Throught he prayers of our holy Fathers, O Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on us.

Amen.*

Thanks!!!

-Tim

 

[ConstantineTG]

Glory be to the Father (+),
and to the Son,
and to the Holy Spirit,
now and ever and forever. Amen.

Lord, have mercy. (x3)

Throught he prayers of our holy Fathers, O Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on us.

Amen.

Thanks!!!

-Tim

You can also refer to other Liturgical prayers we have regarding the Theotokos. Such is the Byzantine belief that everything we consider dogmatic is found in our Liturgy. We live Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi to the fullest. Every mention of Mary in our Liturgies is deliberate because it is part of our essential belief.

 

[ConstantineTG]

There is a list of Theotokions here you can also look at:

goarch.org/chapel/liturgical_texts/vespers

 

[TimothyH]

You’re right. Nobody actually answered your question. Sorry. I’ve got to get the kids some lunch, but if nobody answers you by then, I’ll try to take some time to type out an answer.

It wasn’t my question, but it did pique my interest, and I was hopeful of something more substantial than the sound of Christians throwing kitchen knives across the room at each other.

Pleae don’t rush to post anything on my account.

-Tim-

 

[Richca]

Originally Posted by Richca
You claim that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and indeed he is. But the way that Jesus came to us was only through Mary. Jesus once said “I have given you a model to follow, so that as I have done for you, you should also do” ( John 13:15). Thus, as Jesus came to us and was given to us through his mother, we should follow his example and go to him through his mother Mary.

Now, though there may be many paths and roads that lead to heaven, I for one, would rather follow Jesus’ example and go to him through the same way he came to us and that way is Mary.

Isn’t that what the Holy Spirit is for?

If I understand you correctly, yes. But the Holy Spirit works through our Lady in the sanctification of mankind just as at the Annunciaton it was by the power of the Holy Spirit that the Son of God became incarnate in the womb of Mary. Now the same mother that produced the head ( i.e., Jesus) of the mystical body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit also produces the members of the mystical body of Christ in cooperation with and by the power of the Holy Spirit. I know this is pretty deep theologically, but true nonetheless.

 

[ConstantineTG]

But the Holy Spirit works through our Lady in the sanctification of mankind

This statement right here is dangerous that it can easily be misinterpreted to mean that the Holy Spirit only works through Mary. I’m not even sure I understand what you are trying to say here.

I think the issue with Latin Catholicism is that the Protestant Reformation and its fruits have constantly undermined Mary’s role in the Church that there seems to be a need to counter such claims by then going above and beyond what is the right amont of veneration and honor due to the Theotokos.

 

[Peter_J]

So far, the only thing I learned about Byzantine views on Mary is that Eastern Catholics think Latin Catholics worship Mary, or that many teeter on the edge.

I’m glad to know that this is the extent of Byzantine Marian theology. That’s deep.

Thanks!!!

-Tim-

If you “learned” that from reading this thread, then I’m glad you’re not one of my students.

 

[Peter_J]

I was wondering if someone might help me to understand what the Byzantine view of the Blessed Virgin Mary is?

Please note - I am Roman Catholic, but have been attending Byzantine masses.

** I have heard (through some highly unreliable sources) the Eastern belief is that the BVM is a Goddess.**

Hi William. Not meaning to oversimplify, but I would suggest treating that assertion as meaningless propaganda. (Just that particular assertion – I’m not saying that there aren’t other criticisms that merit kinder attention.)

 

[babochka]

What is your point here? Are you saying that we shouldn’t say anything about Mary because that might lead to a misunderstanding? With this logic, maybe the early church shouldn’t have said anything about Christ because as we know there were some heretical sects who either didn’t believe in the divinity of Christ or didn’t believe he was a true man.

I was responding to a specific statement:

Well then the danger of Marian Worship in the East is extremely low, below zero. Because I see no evidence of Marian Worship in the western church. None, nodda, zip. We need more devotion to Mary, not scare tactics that these devotions are somehow going to lead one into the sin of idolatry.

I thought my point was clear. I’m not sure how you got that we shouldn’t say anything about Mary because it might lead to a misunderstanding. I was simply refuting the statement that there is no evidence of Marian worship in the western church. I gave an example of such. That is all. No more, no less.

 

[Richca]

This statement right here is dangerous that it can easily be misinterpreted to mean that the Holy Spirit only works through Mary. I’m not even sure I understand what you are trying to say here.

I think the issue with Latin Catholicism is that the Protestant Reformation and its fruits have constantly undermined Mary’s role in the Church that there seems to be a need to counter such claims by then going above and beyond what is the right amont of veneration and honor due to the Theotokos.

ConstantineTG; greetings.

That the Holy Spirit works only by or through Mary in the distribution of graces is exactly what I mean. It is not a misinterpretation of what I said. For we call Mary the Mediatrix of All Graces. Now, that the Holy Spirit can distribute alone without Mary the graces and gifts that Jesus merited for us by his passion and death is quite obvious. For the Holy Spirit is God. However, because of the role that Mary played and still plays in the redemption of mankind, by God’s will and ordination, the Holy Spirit distributes all his graces and gifts only through Mary.

This is what St Maximilian Kolbe says: " The union between the Immaculata and the Holy Spirit is so inexpressible, yet so perfect, that the Holy Spirit works only by the Most Blessed Virgin, his spouse. This is why she is the Mediatrix of all grace given by the Holy Spirit. And since every grace is a gift of God the Father through the Son and by the Holy Spirit, it follows that there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her own, which is not given to her for this purpose."

Again he says: " The Holy Spirit does not confer any grace, the Father does not give supernatural life to any soul by the Son and the Holy Spirit, unless these gifts are bestowed through the Mediatrix of all grace, the Immaculata, who cooperates in the giving, and distributes them as she wills. She obtains from God all the treasures of grace, as belonging to her, and she distributes them to whomsoever she wills, as she wills."

St Maximilian Kolbe’s teaching is not new. Many saints before him have said the same thing such as St Louis Marie de Montfort. His teaching is biblical and derived from the doctrines and dogmas of the faith. A number of popes have said that Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces. Indeed, the movement that St Maximilian founded, the Knights of the Immaculata, which is approved by the Church, is based on the doctrine that Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces.

The doctrine that Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces and the co-redemptrix of the human race has not been labeled a heresy in the Catholic Church. On the contrary, as I have said many saints have taught this as well as some popes. The Vatican Council II declared that Mary can be invoked under the titles of Mediatrix, Co-redemptrix, and Advocate. It seems to me the only thing remaining to do is to definitively declare it a dogma of the faith.

 

[ConstantineTG]

ConstantineTG; greetings.

That the Holy Spirit works only by or through Mary in the distribution of graces is exactly what I mean. It is not a misinterpretation of what I said. For we call Mary the Mediatrix of All Graces. Now, that the Holy Spirit can distribute alone without Mary the graces and gifts that Jesus merited for us by his passion and death is quite obvious. For the Holy Spirit is God. However, because of the role that Mary played and still plays in the redemption of mankind, by God’s will and ordination, the Holy Spirit distributes all his graces and gifts only through Mary.

This is what St Maximilian Kolbe says: " The union between the Immaculata and the Holy Spirit is so inexpressible, yet so perfect, that the Holy Spirit works only by the Most Blessed Virgin, his spouse. This is why she is the Mediatrix of all grace given by the Holy Spirit. And since every grace is a gift of God the Father through the Son and by the Holy Spirit, it follows that there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her own, which is not given to her for this purpose."

Again he says: " The Holy Spirit does not confer any grace, the Father does not give supernatural life to any soul by the Son and the Holy Spirit, unless these gifts are bestowed through the Mediatrix of all grace, the Immaculata, who cooperates in the giving, and distributes them as she wills. She obtains from God all the treasures of grace, as belonging to her, and she distributes them to whomsoever she wills, as she wills."

St Maximilian Kolbe’s teaching is not new. Many saints before him have said the same thing such as St Louis Marie de Montfort. His teaching is biblical and derived from the doctrines and dogmas of the faith. A number of popes have said that Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces. Indeed, the movement that St Maximilian founded, the Knights of the Immaculata, which is approved by the Church, is based on the doctrine that Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces.

I have to look more into this but quite honestly I am troubled by how I understand this.

 

[Peter_J]

I was responding to a specific statement:

I thought my point was clear. I’m not sure how you got that we shouldn’t say anything about Mary because it might lead to a misunderstanding.

Excuse me for “butting in”, but that’s exactly what I was wondering too.

 

[Peter_J]

Tafan…
Some years back, in a discussion right here on CAF, I had a person - listed as Catholic in his profile and pretty clearly Catholic by all evidence, tell me straight out that I should not be praying to the Father. That I should be praying to Mary. I was accused of presumption, thinking that I was good enough to talk directly to the Father.
He said this even though I had pointed out to him Jesus own words regarding how we should pray.
I wish now I had kept the thread - but it was so long ago, I’d never be able to find it.

Since then, I have been involved in a number of "praying to Mary (and the Saints) threads and been taken to task for my views on the matter even though Church teaching firmly supports the views that I present.

I don’t mention this to say that such things are prevalent but then again…

It points out that there are indeed people who take things to inappropriate levels.

I don’t mean to say that such things are prevalent, but neither are they, as you say, “None, nodda, zip”.

Peace
James

Good post ^^.

And good to see you by the way. Seems like such a long time.

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

I was wondering if someone might help me to understand what the Byzantine view of the Blessed Virgin Mary is?

Please note - I am Roman Catholic, but have been attending Byzantine masses.

I have heard (through some highly unreliable sources) the Eastern belief is that the BVM is a Goddess. I know, however, she is viewed as the Theotokos, i.e. the God Bearer, and the Byzantine mass is approved by the Vatican - so I dont know that the Pope’s would have approved such a view, so I’m just wondering if someone could please clarify the distinction (if any) between the Roman view vs the Byzantine view of the BVM/Theotokos?

Again, I want to offer up my usual disclaimer, and say I hope I havent offended anyone in the asking. I am just trying to better understand and respect everyone’s religious sensibilities.

All help and good will is appreciated!

William777,

The Byzantine view of Mary can be understood by looking at the major festivals surrounding her and/or that she is involved in.

1. The Nativity of the Theotokos- Mary was born to her parents, the Righteous Ancestors of God Joachim and Anna, in response to their prayers for a child.
2. The Entrance of the Most Holy Theotokos into the Temple- Joachim and Anna brought Mary to the Temple to present her, and consecrate her to God. It is held that she remained in the Temple until betrothed to Joseph.
3. The Annunciation- When the Archangel Gabriel announced to Mary that she would be the mother of the Son of God, and she gave her assent to it. This marks the beginning of her being Theotokos, the God-Bearer.
4. Nativity of Christ/Christmas- The birth of Jesus. Again, reinforces that Mary is the Mother of God.
5. The Presentation of Jesus in the Temple- Besides fulfilling the Law of Moses, Simeon also prophesied about Jesus’ act of redemption, and how Mary would suffer on account of it.
6. Good Friday- Mary is there at her Son’s side, and is indeed pierced through her heart in pain, as Simeon foretold.
7. Pascha- Mary is a witness to her Son’s resurrection.
8. Ascension- Mary witnesses the Ascension.
9. Pentecost- Mary is there on Pentecost.
10. The Dormition of the Theotokos- Mary dies peacefully, as though falling asleep. Three days later, her body is gone, having been assumed body and soul into Heaven.

Out of the the Twelve Great Feasts used by Byzantine Christians, four of them specifically concern Mary, although she is also involved in others in various ways (i.e., giving birth to Christ on Christmas). She is Ever-Virgin, the greatest of the saints, and is an intercessor in a special way for Christians. For another good idea of how much she is lauded, check out the Akathist Hymn to the Theotokos:
stsymeon.com/akathist.html

Hope this helps

 

[ByzCathCantor]

the Holy Spirit works through our Lady in the sanctification of mankind

it is more apt to say (including from Byzantine perspective) that Mary guides us to the graces of the Holy Spirit and helps us receive them with due humility and appreciation

 

[ByzCathCantor]

As for the OP, this is a particularly opportune month to ask, as on October 1st, we celebrated the feast of the Protection (or Intercession) of the Most Holy Theotokos in Byzantine tradition.

There were several good articles on this feast, which also directly addressed the question of the OP, included in this month’s edition of Theosis magazine, a new periodical offered by Eastern Christian Publications. I just happened to have read them this morning during my commute.

In sum, in Byzantine thought, (i) Mary’s intercessions are indeed the work of her Son; (ii) Mary’s motherhood is more heavily emphasized in considering her intercessory role; and, (iii) Mary serves perpetually and for all eternity as the quintessential model of how we must strive to relate to Father, Son and Holy Spirit. She is our guide and example.