The Byzantine View of Mary

[twf]

I have to look more into this but quite honestly I am troubled by how I understand this.

Constantine - don’t worry about it too much. It is a challenging concept for many (has been for myself in the past as well), and it isn’t something that one must fully understand in order to be a good Catholic. Let me just say this - rest assured that the Latin Church does not in anyway suggest that we cannot have a direct, personal, and intense union with the Lord Jesus Christ (and, of course, the other two persons of the Blessed Trinity). Believing that Our Lady is mediatrix of all graces (something that has not been defined as dogma - but is widely accepted) does not in any way detract from this. It is, in fact, a very mystical concept. It was through and in Mary that the Holy Spirit brought the God-Man into the world; Mary’s “yes” to the Holy Spirit gave way to the perfect marriage of God and Man in her womb in the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ in the Incarnation IS all grace, so by that reasoning alone, Mary is the instrument by which all grace entered the world. As Mother of the Church she continues to play a central role in the redemptive mystery - within the Church, the mystical extension of the Incarnation, the Holy Spirit, through Mary’s intercession, forms each of us, the adopted brothers of Christ and sons of Mary, into the God-man…

As Catholics we could accurately state that all sacramental grace is mediated through the hands of a sinful, mortal priest. I receive the grace of new life through the priest when he baptizes me. I receive the grace of forgiveness through the priest when he absolves me. I receive the Lord Jesus Christ - body and blood, soul and divinity - from the hands of the priest when he places the Host on my tongue. I thus receive all sacramental grace…in fact Jesus Himself, through the priest, yet this does not in any way diminish my personal encounter with the Risen Lord. Think of it this way - as the priest hands Christ to us in Holy Communion…so Our Lady, by the power and grace of the Holy Spirit, gives birth to Christ within our hearts.

Metroplitan Ware, I believe, acknowledged that the title co-redemptrix could be true of Our Lady, with the understanding that it is also true, in a lesser sense, of each of us. The Latin Church fully agrees with that. As St. Paul teaches, we are all called to share in the sufferings of Christ, mystically united to His cross, in order to mediate salvation to our brothers and sisters, as Our Lady did at the foot of the cross.

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church*…(Col. 1:24, NAB)

I would say that yes Our Lady is the Mediatrix and yes she is the Co-redemptrix - as she is most perfectly united to Her Divine Son and most perfectly participates in His redemptive work…but each of us, as baptized Christians who have put on Christ are co-mediators and co-redeemers in a less perfect sense.

 

[Dorothy]

twf,

Thank you for your post!

 

[Peter_J]

Constantine - don’t worry about it too much. It is a challenging concept for many

I guess you’re more authoritative than I realized.

 

[twf]

I guess you’re more authoritative than I realized.

It was just friendly advice not to let this issue become a Latin/Byzantine stumbling block - its not a dogma and many Catholics find it difficult (as I mentioned, myself included in the past).

 

[ApologiaSophia]

ConstantineTG; greetings.

That the Holy Spirit works only by or through Mary in the distribution of graces is exactly what I mean. It is not a misinterpretation of what I said. For we call Mary the Mediatrix of All Graces. Now, that the Holy Spirit can distribute alone without Mary the graces and gifts that Jesus merited for us by his passion and death is quite obvious. For the Holy Spirit is God. However, because of the role that Mary played and still plays in the redemption of mankind, by God’s will and ordination, the Holy Spirit distributes all his graces and gifts only through Mary.

This is what St Maximilian Kolbe says: " The union between the Immaculata and the Holy Spirit is so inexpressible, yet so perfect, that the Holy Spirit works only by the Most Blessed Virgin, his spouse. This is why she is the Mediatrix of all grace given by the Holy Spirit. And since every grace is a gift of God the Father through the Son and by the Holy Spirit, it follows that there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her own, which is not given to her for this purpose."

Again he says: " The Holy Spirit does not confer any grace, the Father does not give supernatural life to any soul by the Son and the Holy Spirit, unless these gifts are bestowed through the Mediatrix of all grace, the Immaculata, who cooperates in the giving, and distributes them as she wills. She obtains from God all the treasures of grace, as belonging to her, and she distributes them to whomsoever she wills, as she wills."

St Maximilian Kolbe’s teaching is not new. Many saints before him have said the same thing such as St Louis Marie de Montfort. His teaching is biblical and derived from the doctrines and dogmas of the faith. A number of popes have said that Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces. Indeed, the movement that St Maximilian founded, the Knights of the Immaculata, which is approved by the Church, is based on the doctrine that Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces.

The doctrine that Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces and the co-redemptrix of the human race has not been labeled a heresy in the Catholic Church. On the contrary, as I have said many saints have taught this as well as some popes. The Vatican Council II declared that Mary can be invoked under the titles of Mediatrix, Co-redemptrix, and Advocate. It seems to me the only thing remaining to do is to definitively declare it a dogma of the faith.

I have never heard this before, but it deeply bothers me. The first is that it is a Catholic (Universal) belief of the true Church that the Holy Spirit spoke through the prophets. Prophecy being a “gift of grace” from the Holy Spirit, it seems the Holy Spirit was working well before Mary was ever born. The Holy Spirit fell on Mary… through/by Mary? What you stated above sounds like a strange doctrine and is certainly foreign to any of the 3 Universal Creeds. If the Holy Spirit only exercised His gifts through/by Mary, I would think it reasonable to find it the Apostolic, Nicean, or Athanasian Creeds. I’m pretty sure I have the lowest Mariology on this thread, but I sincerely believe this is causing no bias in my response to your comment. Also, I think this would create problems with the Trinitarian doctrine of perichoresis. In fact, using logical reasoning tell me why and how what you stated above does not elevate Mary to an unofficial member of the Trinity? How does this not interfere with God’s omnipotence? His aseity? Immutability? Etc. I consider Mary to be worthy of honor and we should certainly follow her good example, and though I am far from sold, I remain open minded to many of the Catholic doctrines on Mary… this is not one of them (then again, this is not an official doctrine of any church, Catholic or otherwise). Since it is not an articulated doctrine of the RC I would recommend that you deliberate again.

 

[JRKH]

You claim that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and indeed he is. But the way that Jesus came to us was only through Mary. Jesus once said “I have given you a model to follow, so that as I have done for you, you should also do” ( John 13:15). Thus, as Jesus came to us and was given to us through his mother, we should follow his example and go to him through his mother Mary.

While I love our mother Mary, I do not agree with this logic.
The verse quoted is entirely out of context to a discussion of Marion devotion since it deals with Jesus washing the feet of the Apostles…Of the teacher being the servant.
Yes Jesus came to US Through Mary. So why do we need to go to Him through her. We already have Him. We receive Him directly in the Eucharist.

Mary’s last recorded words in Scripture are “Do whatever he tells you” (John 2:5). Later…as Jesus was teaching us to pray, He tell us to pray, “Our Father…”
So if you wish to follow Jesus example…Pray to the Father.

Now, though there may be many paths and roads that lead to heaven, I for one, would rather follow Jesus’ example and go to him through the same way he came to us and that way is Mary.

Devotion to our Heavenly Mother is a wonderful path.
I agree that there are many roads to heaven. All of them narrow and we should be cautious as we travel them.

Peace
James

 

[ApologiaSophia]

Devotion to our Heavenly Mother is a wonderful path.
I agree that there are many roads to heaven. All of them narrow and we should be cautious as we travel them.

Peace
James

Sorry if this seems nit-pickey, but I think we need to be in one accord that their is only one path to heaven, and that is faith in Jesus Christ. That is the only path. Now we might travel that path on foot, by horse, or by camel. How we travel the path that is faith in Christ can vary, but to say that there is another path besides him is deceitful. For no one comes to the Father but by him, not by prayer. For prayer is the means to by which we travel the road that is our faith and hope in Christ Jesus. I think this is important, which is why I commented.

 

[JRKH]

Sorry if this seems nit-pickey, but I think we need to be in one accord that their is only one path to heaven, and that is faith in Jesus Christ. That is the only path. Now we might travel that path on foot, by horse, or by camel. How we travel the path that is faith in Christ can vary, but to say that there is another path besides him is deceitful. For no one comes to the Father but by him, not by prayer. For prayer is the means to by which we travel the road that is our faith and hope in Christ Jesus. I think this is important, which is why I commented.

Not nit-picky at all. Well said…

Peace
James

 

[jwinch2]

I generally find the Eastern approach to Mary to be one which focuses on the patristic view. Obviously, Eastern Catholics are just as Catholic as those in the Roman Church so they accept and believe the same dogma.

A book that I like which does a great job of discussing Mary is: amazon.com/Mary-Fathers-Church-Blessed-Patristic/dp/0898706866/ref=pd_sim_b_3

A very good book that gives a more contemporary approach is: amazon.com/Mary-Church-Source-Benedict-XVI/dp/158617018X/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1350356931&sr=1-4&keywords=pope+benedict+mary

Peace,

 

[jwinch2]

I have to look more into this but quite honestly I am troubled by how I understand this.

Don’t be. As you are no doubt well aware you are not required to accept private revelation and as such, are not required to agree with St. Kolbe or de Montfort’s approach to Marian devotion. In addition, the Church, while having used those terms, has deliberately chosen not to define them because of the wide potential for misunderstanding. There are many threads on this topic, which you may or may not have seen in the past here on CAF.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=568148&highlight=marian+devotion+too
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=680833&highlight=marian+devotion+too
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=462463&highlight=marian+devotion+too
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=592881&highlight=marian+devotion+too
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=581494&highlight=marian+devotion+too
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=546380&highlight=marian+devotion+too

Peace,

 

[ConstantineTG]

It was just friendly advice not to let this issue become a Latin/Byzantine stumbling block - its not a dogma and many Catholics find it difficult (as I mentioned, myself included in the past).

It’s not as much that I find it a Latin/Byzantine stumbling block as much as I see it as something potentially, um, Patristic.

 

[jwinch2]

Constantine - don’t worry about it too much. It is a challenging concept for many (has been for myself in the past as well), and it isn’t something that one must fully understand in order to be a good Catholic. Let me just say this - rest assured that the Latin Church does not in anyway suggest that we cannot have a direct, personal, and intense union with the Lord Jesus Christ (and, of course, the other two persons of the Blessed Trinity). Believing that Our Lady is mediatrix of all graces (something that has not been defined as dogma - but is widely accepted) does not in any way detract from this. It is, in fact, a very mystical concept. It was through and in Mary that the Holy Spirit brought the God-Man into the world; Mary’s “yes” to the Holy Spirit gave way to the perfect marriage of God and Man in her womb in the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ in the Incarnation IS all grace, so by that reasoning alone, Mary is the instrument by which all grace entered the world. As Mother of the Church she continues to play a central role in the redemptive mystery - within the Church, the mystical extension of the Incarnation, the Holy Spirit, through Mary’s intercession, forms each of us, the adopted brothers of Christ and sons of Mary, into the God-man…

As Catholics we could accurately state that all sacramental grace is mediated through the hands of a sinful, mortal priest. I receive the grace of new life through the priest when he baptizes me. I receive the grace of forgiveness through the priest when he absolves me. I receive the Lord Jesus Christ - body and blood, soul and divinity - from the hands of the priest when he places the Host on my tongue. I thus receive all sacramental grace…in fact Jesus Himself, through the priest, yet this does not in any way diminish my personal encounter with the Risen Lord. Think of it this way - as the priest hands Christ to us in Holy Communion…so Our Lady, by the power and grace of the Holy Spirit, gives birth to Christ within our hearts.

Metroplitan Ware, I believe, acknowledged that the title co-redemptrix could be true of Our Lady, with the understanding that it is also true, in a lesser sense, of each of us. The Latin Church fully agrees with that. As St. Paul teaches, we are all called to share in the sufferings of Christ, mystically united to His cross, in order to mediate salvation to our brothers and sisters, as Our Lady did at the foot of the cross.

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church*…(Col. 1:24, NAB)

I would say that yes Our Lady is the Mediatrix and yes she is the Co-redemptrix - as she is most perfectly united to Her Divine Son and most perfectly participates in His redemptive work…but each of us, as baptized Christians who have put on Christ are co-mediators and co-redeemers in a less perfect sense.

This is one of the better breakdowns I have come across, thanks for that.

The only point I might take issue with is that the idea of mediatrix and co-redemptrix being widely accepted. Not that it isn’t, you are correct in that, but it does not tell the whole story. There are wide concerns about how to correctly interpret and define these titles. As such, I actually do not think we will see any new Marian dogmas. Other dogmas were widely discussed and written about, even in early Patristic times so there was a natural and organic link to the Apostles and the early Church. To date, and unless there is something I am unaware of, I have not seen that sort of link between the early Church and either mediatrix or co-redemptrix.

 

[Ghosty]

Do you not see, that all of creation glorifies the Virgin Mother, and not only for some prescribed interval, but rather forever, unto ages of ages?

It is obvious, moreover, that She will never cease to benefit all creatures through all the ages to come. I speak not only about the creatures we see around us, but also of the chief commanders of the heavenly hosts, the bodiless and celestial hierarchies, It is only through Her that they, and we, are united to God, and touch the Intangible. Isaiah shows this clearly: he saw that the Seraphim did not take the coal from the altar directly, but held it with tongs, by which he touched the coal to the lips of the prophet to purify them (Is. 6: 6).

Moses saw the tongs of Isaiah’s great vision when he beheld the bush burning with fire, yet not consumed (Ex. 3: 2). Who does not know that this bush and these tongs are the Virgin Mother? She conceived the fire of Divinity (Him Who takes away the sins of the world) without being burned, although the Archangel was present at the Conception. Through Her He was joined to the human race, cleansing us through this inexplicable union. Therefore, She is the only boundary between created and uncreated nature; and no one can come to God unless they are illumined through Her, the Lamp truly radiant with divinity. As the Prophet-King says, “God is in the midst of Her, she shall not be moved” (Ps. 45/46:5-6).

and

It is an eternal law in the heavens, that the inferior enter into communion with what is beyond being through the superior. Certainly, the Virgin Mother is incomparably superior to all. It is through Her that all partake of God, who otherwise would not partake. Those who know God understand Her to be the container of Him Who contains all. All who praise God praise Her together with Him. She Herself is the pardoner of all that went before Her, and intercessor for all that came after Her, and agent of eternal blessings. She is the subject of the prophecies of the prophets, the principle of the Apostles, the foundation of the martyrs, the premise of the Church’s teachers. She is the glory of the earth-born, the joy of heavenly beings, and the adornment of all creatures. She is the beginning, the source and root of inexpressible blessings. She is the supreme perfection of all that is holy.

There’s some Byzantine perspective on Mary.

Peace and God bless!

 

[jwinch2]

It’s not as much that I find it a Latin/Byzantine stumbling block as much as I see it as something potentially, um, Patristic.

I’m curious, can you expand upon that?

Thanks,

 

[jwinch2]

More past threads here on CAF:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=504804&highlight=marian+devotion+too
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=513699&highlight=marian+devotion+too
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=495741&highlight=marian+devotion+too
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=497907&highlight=marian+devotion+too
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=492753&highlight=marian+devotion+too
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=461499&highlight=marian+devotion+too
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=437279&highlight=marian+devotion+too
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=591179&highlight=marian+devotion+too

Not trying to be a pain, merely informing that some of this stuff has been hashed out on CAF many times over. De Montfort’s and Kolbe’s level of Marian devotion is such that many faithful Catholics have difficulty with it. I’m not suggesting that people should not pursue it if they are called in that direction, merely that it might not be for everyone.

Peace,

 

[ConstantineTG]

I’m curious, can you expand upon that?

Thanks,

That such view was never held by anyone in the early Church, thus is inconsistent with the early faith.

edit: I mean that none of the Early Church Fathers taught this view. This is not part of the teaching of the Early Church.

 

[jwinch2]

That such view was never held by anyone in the early Church, thus is inconsistent with the early faith.

edit: I mean that none of the Early Church Fathers taught this view. This is not part of the teaching of the Early Church.

Gotcha.

For what it is worth, I agree with you at this point. The Marian dogmas we currently have are relatively easy to find reference to in the writings of the Church Fathers as well as in Sacred Scripture. Co-redemptrix and mediatrix, I do not see, again, unless there is something that I am missing which I am open to seeing should it exist.

Regardless, I certainly do not see anything in the Church Fathers which approaches the level of Marian devotion recommended by St. De Montfort and some others.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Gotcha.

For what it is worth, I agree with you at this point. The Marian dogmas we currently have are relatively easy to find reference to in the writings of the Church Fathers as well as in Sacred Scripture. Co-redemptrix and mediatrix, I do not see, again, unless there is something that I am missing which I am open to seeing should it exist.

Regardless, I certainly do not see anything in the Church Fathers which approaches the level of Marian devotion recommended by St. De Montfort and some others.

No, I’m contesting this earlier post by Richca which says “That the Holy Spirit works only by or through Mary in the distribution of graces”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9898563&postcount=34

I will say I have A LOT of problems with that statement.

 

[jwinch2]

No, I’m contesting this earlier post by Richca which says “That the Holy Spirit works only by or through Mary in the distribution of graces”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9898563&postcount=34

I will say I have A LOT of problems with that statement.

Ah, I see. Me too. Thanks for the clarification.

For what it is worth, have you seen anything from the Church Fathers related to co-redemptrix and mediatrix? You are probably more up on their writings than I am.

Peace

 

[ConstantineTG]

Ah, I see. Me too. Thanks for the clarification.

For what it is worth, have you seen anything from the Church Fathers related to co-redemptrix and mediatrix? You are probably more up on their writings than I am.

Peace

LOL, not really (in regards to being ahead of you in reading Patristics). Most of what I read are modern writers citing the Fathers, not the Fathers themselves. I think reading the Fathers directly requires the same level of knowledge in performing biblical exegesis. We really need to understand and appreciate the world they were living in to get the context of their writings.

I just finished some basics on Trinitarian theology which is why I am troubled a bit on claims that the Holy Spirits only works through Mary. Definitely not a Byzantine view, to say the least.