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babochka
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Could you share sources for these quotes?and
There’s some Byzantine perspective on Mary.
Peace and God bless!
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Ghosty
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I was hoping to see some reactions first. I’ll just say it’s from an Orthodox website, and a Byzantine Saint. 
Peace and God bless!
Peace and God bless!
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babochka
Guest
I looked it up. You’re not really going to open that can of worms, are you? This should be worth at least 3 split threads.I was hoping to see some reactions first. I’ll just say it’s from an Orthodox website, and a Byzantine Saint.
Peace and God bless!
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Ghosty
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I didn’t think it was a can of worms. 
It’s a beautiful homily by one of my favorite Saints and theologians, St. Gregory Palamas. You can find it here at the OCA website.
I’ve never read de Monteforte, but from what I’ve heard I think he and Palamas shared very similar views on Mary. The differences come more from devotional style, I think, than substantial belief. I’m speaking out of significant ignorance when it comes to de Monteforte, however, so I could be wrong. What I do find interesting is that Palamas clearly articulates the notions of mediatrix and co-redemptrix in this homily, centuries before these notions took deep root in the West.
I’ll also point out that, traditionally, we say “Theotokos, save us!” in Byzantine liturgies. This doesn’t mean that Mary is a goddess, or that she replaces Christ, but it is a recognition of what Palamas is speaking about in this homily: without her there is no Grace and no Salvation.
Peace and God bless!
It’s a beautiful homily by one of my favorite Saints and theologians, St. Gregory Palamas. You can find it here at the OCA website.
I’ve never read de Monteforte, but from what I’ve heard I think he and Palamas shared very similar views on Mary. The differences come more from devotional style, I think, than substantial belief. I’m speaking out of significant ignorance when it comes to de Monteforte, however, so I could be wrong. What I do find interesting is that Palamas clearly articulates the notions of mediatrix and co-redemptrix in this homily, centuries before these notions took deep root in the West.
I’ll also point out that, traditionally, we say “Theotokos, save us!” in Byzantine liturgies. This doesn’t mean that Mary is a goddess, or that she replaces Christ, but it is a recognition of what Palamas is speaking about in this homily: without her there is no Grace and no Salvation.
Peace and God bless!
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ConstantineTG
Guest
So you are fine to say the Holy Spirit only works through Mary?I didn’t think it was a can of worms.
It’s a beautiful homily by one of my favorite Saints and theologians, St. Gregory Palamas. You can find it here at the OCA website.
I’ve never read de Monteforte, but from what I’ve heard I think he and Palamas shared very similar views on Mary. The differences come more from devotional style, I think, than substantial belief. I’m speaking out of significant ignorance when it comes to de Monteforte, however, so I could be wrong. What I do find interesting is that Palamas clearly articulates the notions of mediatrix and co-redemptrix in this homily, centuries before these notions took deep root in the West.
I’ll also point out that, traditionally, we say “Theotokos, save us!” in Byzantine liturgies. This doesn’t mean that Mary is a goddess, or that she replaces Christ, but it is a recognition of what Palamas is speaking about in this homily: without her there is no Grace and no Salvation.
Peace and God bless!
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Ghosty
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Aramis
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Theotokos: literally god-bearer
Bohorodicen: Literally God-birther
Ever Virgin. Yep, we believe she remained without any further issue.
Dormition: Her body died, and was reunited body and soul AFTER they both were taken to heaven. Moreover, her death weighed lightly upon her physical countenance; she appeared merely asleep.
Full of Grace: She was filled with holy grace and accepted her special role willingly.
Never overtly sinned - as close to sinless as any mortal can be. Yet, even she suffered for Adam’s sin, suffering the death of the Body.
Intercessor: She is the right and proper person for much intercessory prayer.
Queen of Heaven, Virgin Queen - She is enthroned by her son in glory. She is not a power, but is a conduit of grace because it is the Lord’s will that she is. She, like all other saints, prays for us.
“Save us who sing to you” - she saves us by her intercession, not by direct salvation, and by bringing us to Christ.
Only a few icons show the Theotokos without Christ. The Burial Shroud of Mary is used at Dormition. The Dormition Icon itself even typically shows her with Christ! And she almost always points to her Son’s face.
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ByzCathCantor
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JRKH
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GaryTaylor
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Yes pretty much a re-run on CAF with the Saints Montfort/Kolbe. Often overlooked is the search engine.
Pretty much agree with Aramis, difference being the last line which we do see particular images’s of the BVM be it Our Lady of Sorrow’s or whichever in particular. I know of no instance where the point isn’t Jesus Christ though, that would be a new animal.
Pretty much agree with Aramis, difference being the last line which we do see particular images’s of the BVM be it Our Lady of Sorrow’s or whichever in particular. I know of no instance where the point isn’t Jesus Christ though, that would be a new animal.
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twf
Guest
Thanks for sharing. Why, then, do you feel that so many Orthodox Christians accuse Latins of going overboard with Marian devotion?I didn’t think it was a can of worms.
It’s a beautiful homily by one of my favorite Saints and theologians, St. Gregory Palamas. You can find it here at the OCA website.
I’ve never read de Monteforte, but from what I’ve heard I think he and Palamas shared very similar views on Mary. The differences come more from devotional style, I think, than substantial belief. I’m speaking out of significant ignorance when it comes to de Monteforte, however, so I could be wrong. What I do find interesting is that Palamas clearly articulates the notions of mediatrix and co-redemptrix in this homily, centuries before these notions took deep root in the West.
I’ll also point out that, traditionally, we say “Theotokos, save us!” in Byzantine liturgies. This doesn’t mean that Mary is a goddess, or that she replaces Christ, but it is a recognition of what Palamas is speaking about in this homily: without her there is no Grace and no Salvation.
Peace and God bless!
J
jwinch2
Guest
You weren’t asking me, but I would suggest that St. Palamas was well out of the Patristic period which would cause many Orthodox to pay less attention to his writings and teachings. In addition, my impression of the Orthodox is that they don’t hang their hat on the thoughts on writings of one particular saint, but rather see what the Church has taught consistently on the subject and go with that, rather than the one saint here and there who perhaps went further in a particular area.
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ConstantineTG
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That is what has been put forward, and you said the difference is only in devotional style.
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TimothyH
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I’m not trying to convince anyone, but want to be clear about what the belief is. Saying “The Holy Spirit only works through Mary” is a very vague generalization, so I want to be clear.
I’ll try to be succinct. Forgive my butchering of such a deep topic.
Grace is an action of the Holy Spirit. Sanctification occurs because the Holy Spirit - God - acts in and on our souls. It is the activity of the Holy Spirit which brings about the sanctification of our souls. Grace was won for us on the Cross by Jesus Christ who is also God. .
Mary is the Mediatrix of Grace because she is the Mother of the Redeemer - God - who won Grace for us, and the spouse of the Holy Spirit - God - who acts in and upon our souls. The treasury of graces has been given by Christ to his Mother. As the spouse of the Holy Spirit, Mary directs that grace to us, where it is applied in our lives by her spouse, the Holy Spirit. It would be heresy to say that God cannot or does not act in our lives directly, but she who was alone created “Full of Grace” does direct the grace won by Christ to us, where her spouse the Holy Spririt acts.
Just like the first Eve was the “suitable partner” or “perfect helpmate” to the first Adam, created to share Adam’s vocation, the New Eve Mary is the perfect helpmate or perfect vocation partner for the New Adam, Jesus Christ. The New Eve shares in the New Adam’s vocation in many ways, more than just intercessory prayer. If she interceded for us to get mercy and grace from her son, she also certainly has a hand in that mercy and grace being directed to us.
Again, I don’t care if anyone believes and I will not argue, but saying “The Holy Spirit only works through Mary” is a gross generalization and I just want to be clear. Strictly speaking, even St. Louis de Montfort recognizes that it would heretical to say that God cannot and does not act directly in our lives.
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Ghosty
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I was simply pointing out that Palamas and de Monteforte seem to be saying the same things about Mary. You’re referring to something Kolbe wrote, not something de Monteforte wrote (to my limited knowledge).
Furthermore, I never said I fully endorsed the beliefs espoused by either Saint. I’m merely pointing out that such a view can be found in both traditions. As for whether or not the Holy Spirit works without Mary, I don’t claim to know how the Holy Spirit operates. I have no doubt that the truth of the matter could go either way, but the Holy Spirit has not seen fit to inform me of His means and methods.
twf: A slight variation of what Jwinch2 said, while Palamas is outside the Patristic realm he is a very important Saint in Eastern Orthodoxy and his post-Patristic theological formulations do form the foundation of Eastern Orthodox notions of Grace and God’s Nature. It’s not as if the Eastern Orthodox are wholly beholden to the Early Fathers.
I think it’s more that this particular issue is not a matter of dogma, just as it isn’t within the Catholic Church. There have been Saints in the East who took the ultra-Marian view, important Saints such as Palamas, but like Kolbe and de Monteforte their devotions are not matters of Dogma. As to why so many today seem to think that such beliefs are wholly outside the Eastern tradition, I think it’s simply a matter of innocent ignorance much of the time (much like the Catholics who think we should pray to Mary and not God). Eastern Orthodoxy has historically tended to impose rigid conformity, but what is being conformed to has changed throughout the centuries. It is a common myth that Orthodoxy has remained “unchanged”, but really it’s just maintained theological rigidity for any given period; what is accepted now is “the Eastern Orthodox view”, what was accepted then was “the Eastern Orthodox view”, despite the fact that these views have often been different to a greater or lesser extent. A few centuries ago the Eastern Orthodox held a Council which used clearly “Scholistic” language and approach to dogma, for example, but now such an approach is “unOrthodox”.
Whether such views on Mary have ever been widespread within the Byzantine East I can’t say because I’ve never cared to research the matter. It’s clear that such views have been found well within the Byzantine tradition, however, and without any Western influence to boot. These views are hardly foreign to the Byzantine tradition, though they may be foreign to what people currently think is “the Orthodox way”.
Peace and God bless!
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twf
Guest
Thanks for the insights. I feel that Our Lady as Mediatrix of all grace has been sufficiently embraced by popes, bishops, and saints down through the centuries that it cannot be ignored. That being said, the manner in which She participates in the mediation of all grace is, I think, up for debate. The Catholic faith is extremely nuanced…these are mysteries that are far beyond our current comprehension! In an earlier post on this thread I noted that, for me, it is no more difficult to accept that Our Lady is mediatrix of all grace than it is to accept that a fallible, sinful, mortal priest is mediator of all sacramental grace - for when I receive the Lord Jesus Christ from the hands of His priest, I receive all grace (Christ Himself) through the priest, yet my direct encounter with Christ is in no way diminished. As an aside, I find it ironic that the Theotokos is more prominent in the liturgical life of the East than she is in the West, but it appears that the West compensates for this with intense Marian para-liturgical devotions (eg. Rosary, Angelus). Outside of her feasts and memorials (of which, I admit, there are many), she is only mentioned a couple brief times in the daily liturgy and the only time she is directly invoked on a typical day, that I can think of, is in the final antiphon of Compline.I was simply pointing out that Palamas and de Monteforte seem to be saying the same things about Mary. You’re referring to something Kolbe wrote, not something de Monteforte wrote (to my limited knowledge).
Furthermore, I never said I fully endorsed the beliefs espoused by either Saint. I’m merely pointing out that such a view can be found in both traditions. As for whether or not the Holy Spirit works without Mary, I don’t claim to know how the Holy Spirit operates. I have no doubt that the truth of the matter could go either way, but the Holy Spirit has not seen fit to inform me of His means and methods.
twf: A slight variation of what Jwinch2 said, while Palamas is outside the Patristic realm he is a very important Saint in Eastern Orthodoxy and his post-Patristic theological formulations do form the foundation of Eastern Orthodox notions of Grace and God’s Nature. It’s not as if the Eastern Orthodox are wholly beholden to the Early Fathers.
I think it’s more that this particular issue is not a matter of dogma, just as it isn’t within the Catholic Church. There have been Saints in the East who took the ultra-Marian view, important Saints such as Palamas, but like Kolbe and de Monteforte their devotions are not matters of Dogma. As to why so many today seem to think that such beliefs are wholly outside the Eastern tradition, I think it’s simply a matter of innocent ignorance much of the time (much like the Catholics who think we should pray to Mary and not God). Eastern Orthodoxy has historically tended to impose rigid conformity, but what is being conformed to has changed throughout the centuries. It is a common myth that Orthodoxy has remained “unchanged”, but really it’s just maintained theological rigidity for any given period; what is accepted now is “the Eastern Orthodox view”, what was accepted then was “the Eastern Orthodox view”, despite the fact that these views have often been different to a greater or lesser extent. A few centuries ago the Eastern Orthodox held a Council which used clearly “Scholistic” language and approach to dogma, for example, but now such an approach is “unOrthodox”.
Whether such views on Mary have ever been widespread within the Byzantine East I can’t say because I’ve never cared to research the matter. It’s clear that such views have been found well within the Byzantine tradition, however, and without any Western influence to boot. These views are hardly foreign to the Byzantine tradition, though they may be foreign to what people currently think is “the Orthodox way”.
Peace and God bless!
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RyanBlack
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The Orthodox, while certainly holding the Early Church Fathers in high regard, tend to be much more circumspect than Catholics about identifying a particular point at which the patristic era ended. In my experience, the Orthodox generally hold St. Gregory Palamas in very high regard and consider him to be a Church Father.
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ConstantineTG
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I will apply a simple principle in business analysis to this. If one sentence (to us, a requirement) takes 15 minutes to explain, then it is a bad one. The fact that the one sentence is very misleading and needs such a lengthy explanation already puts a lot of people in danger because it can easily be misinterpreted
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Richca
Guest
Tim, what you have said above is pretty good. However, I disagree with you that it is a gross generalization to say that the “Holy Spirit only works through Mary.” This is the teaching of St Maximilian Kolbe as well as St Louis de Montfort. I don’t think St Maximilian Kolbe made a gross generalization when he said:
" The union between the Immaculata and the Holy Spirit is so inexpressible, yet so perfect, that the Holy Spirit works only by the Most Blessed Virgin, his spouse. This is why she is the Mediatrix of all grace given by the Holy Spirit. And since every grace is a gift of God the Father through the Son and by the Holy Spirit, it follows that there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her own, which is not given to her for this purpose."
St Maximilian Kolbe spent his life’s work on trying to articulate exactly what is Mary’s mediation in regard to our salvation. He had a doctorate in theology. If you read his writings, he articulates quite well what is Mary’s mediatorship. Although, subordinate to Christ’s mediation, Father Kolbe says Mary’s mediation is a mediation in the full sense of the word, not just an intercessory type of mediation. The doctrine that Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces has been a doctrine in progress just as the dogma of Mary’s Immaculate Conception was a doctrine in progress until the Pope declared it a dogma of the Catholic Faith in 1854. The same can be said of Mary’s Assumption into heaven which was declared a dogma of the catholic faith in 1950.
What you might find very interesting is The Lady of All Nations devotion which the bishop of the diocese where this all started has formally declared that the apparitions of our Lady to Ida Peerdeman are of supernatural origin. In these apparitions, our Lady has said that there will be a fifth marian dogma, namely, that she is the mediatrix of all graces, the co-redemptrix of the human race, and Advocate. Now the church wouldn’t declare this dogma because of the apparitions but based on the sources of revelation which the teaching of St Maximilian Kolbe is based on. However, I do find it all quite interesting. I’d like to reply to other posts but I don’t have the time right now.
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ConstantineTG
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A doctorate in theology doesn’t guarantee orthodox teachings. And frankly, I do not think any claim that the Holy Spirit works only through Mary is orthodox at all.
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