The Byzantine View of Mary

[JRKH]

James, the doctrine that Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces is not difficult to understand. It simply means that we receive all graces from the hands of Mary.

I did not say that I did not understand it…

That it doesn’t have any effect in our daily lives is not the teaching of St Louis de Montfort, St Maximilian Kolbe, St Bernard, and other saints.

That is fine…

For if the doctrine that Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces is true, then it is quite obvious that some kind of devotion to Mary is necessary for our salvation.

This is getting beyond my “KIS” principle…I’ll have to think on this one a bit…

Mary does not detract us from Jesus and God. She leads us to Jesus and God. I think God wants us to appreciate and recognize what our Lady did for us in regard to our salvation. For it was Mary who freely cooperated in the incarnation of the Son of God which incarnation brought about the redemption of the human race.

Fully agree with this.

Peace
James

 

[ByzCathCantor]

A doctorate in theology doesn’t guarantee orthodox teachings. And frankly, I do not think any claim that the Holy Spirit works only through Mary is orthodox at all.

Indeed, and the dwelling of the Holy Spirit predated both the Theotokos and Christ Incarnate.

 

[Richca]

I was not under the impression that the Church has stated that devotion to Mary is a requirement of salvation.

Hi James, I would just like to point out that the Church does say that Mary is our mother in the order of divine grace (cf, the catechism) as it is said in the Litany of Mary “Mother of divine grace.” And the fifth commandment of God is “Honor thy father and mother.” In the Catechism of the Catholic Church it says: “The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship. The Church rightly honors the Blessed Virgin with special devotion” (#971). You would probably agree that we should honor and love Mary in some way or another as she is our mother in the order of divine grace.

I would also like to point out that as far as I know Montfort and Kolbe have never said that the total consecration to Mary as taught by them is necessary for salvation. What they do say is that out of all the devotions one can have for Mary, the devotion of total consecration is the one most pleasing to Mary and Jesus. For by it we give ourselves to Jesus by the hands of Mary in the most perfect manner possible, we can receive the fullest measure of graces possible, become the greatest saints as possible, and give the greatest glory to God that is possible.

The Church has never said that the total consecration to Mary as taught by Montfort and Kolbe is heretical in any way. On the contrary, the Church has approved the devotion and recommended its practice. Montfort started the Confraternity of Mary, Queen of all Hearts and Kolbe initiated the Knights of the Immaculata (as well as the Marytowns), both approved by the Church. Indeed, the church has canonized both Montfort and Kolbe and has thus set them before us as examples of eminent christian holiness. Blessed Pope John Paul II made Montfort’s teaching his own. He took for his apostolic motto “Totus Tuus” which means “totally yours” and which expressed his personal consecration to Mary based on Montfort’s teaching. This is what Blessed Pope John Paul II said about his motto “Totus Tuus” in Crossing the Threshold of Hope:

“Totus Tuus. This phrase is not only an expression of piety, or simply an expression of devotion. It is more. During the Second World War, while I was employed as a factory worker, I came to be attracted to Marian devotion. At first, it had seemed to me that I should distance myself a bit from the Marian devotion of my childhood, in order to focus more on Christ. Thanks to Saint Louis of Montfort, I came to understand that true devotion to the Mother of God is actually Christocentric, indeed, it is very profoundly rooted in the Mystery of the Blessed Trinity, and the mysteries of the Incarnation and Redemption”.

 

[JRKH]

Hi James, I would just like to point out that the Church does say that Mary is our mother in the order of divine grace (cf, the catechism) as it is said in the Litany of Mary “Mother of divine grace.” And the fifth commandment of God is “Honor thy father and mother.” In the Catechism of the Catholic Church it says: “The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship. The Church rightly honors the Blessed Virgin with special devotion” (#971). You would probably agree that we should honor and love Mary in some way or another as she is our mother in the order of divine grace.

Hi Rich…the quote that you seem to be responding to here was not mine but Jason’s…but that is OK…
I agree with everything that you mention above.
Mary is certainly worthy of our devotion as Our Heavenly Mother. That alone is sufficient for me. I really don’t need any other reason.

I would also like to point out that as far as I know Montfort and Kolbe have never said that the total consecration to Mary as taught by them is necessary for salvation.

Very good. Then that is cleared up.

What they do say is that out of all the devotions one can have for Mary, the devotion of total consecration is the one most pleasing to Mary and Jesus. For by it we give ourselves to Jesus by the hands of Mary in the most perfect manner possible, we can receive the fullest measure of graces possible, become the greatest saints as possible, and give the greatest glory to God that is possible.

OK…Not sure I agree with it simply because I’m not a big fan of heavenly things having “degrees” of “pleasing”. But if others find the above to be helpful then I am all for it.

The Church has never said that the total consecration to Mary as taught by Montfort and Kolbe is heretical in any way.

Excellent.

On the contrary, the Church has approved the devotion and recommended its practice.

And of course the key word here is “Recommended”. It is not a requirement.

Montfort started the Confraternity of Mary, Queen of all Hearts and Kolbe initiated the Knights of the Immaculata (as well as the Marytowns), both approved by the Church. Indeed, the church has canonized both Montfort and Kolbe and has thus set them before us as examples of eminent christian holiness. Blessed Pope John Paul II made Montfort’s teaching his own. He took for his apostolic motto “Totus Tuus” which means “totally yours” and which expressed his personal consecration to Mary based on Montfort’s teaching. This is what Blessed Pope John Paul II said about his motto “Totus Tuus” in Crossing the Threshold of Hope:

All excellent recommendations, but again, not a requirement…

“Totus Tuus. This phrase is not only an expression of piety, or simply an expression of devotion. It is more. During the Second World War, while I was employed as a factory worker, I came to be attracted to Marian devotion. At first, it had seemed to me that I should distance myself a bit from the Marian devotion of my childhood, in order to focus more on Christ. Thanks to Saint Louis of Montfort, I came to understand that true devotion to the Mother of God is actually Christocentric, indeed, it is very profoundly rooted in the Mystery of the Blessed Trinity, and the mysteries of the Incarnation and Redemption”.

I am very happy that you have found this. My own journey is somewhat different.
I’m sure that “mom” is pleased with us both…

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

For if the doctrine that Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces is true, then it is quite obvious that some kind of devotion to Mary is necessary for our salvation.

Rich,
I wanted to get back to this statement from your earlier post.

I’ve gone around and around with this in my head…and the only response I can come up with is …WHY?
Why - if the above doctrine is true - is devotion to Mary necessary for salvation?

I don’t understand the logic of your “IF - THEN” statement here. What makes this doctrine any different than the necessity of accepting the PV. or the IC or the Assumption…All things already dogmatically declared and the acceptance of which IS a necessary part of our salvation.

But then - you toss in the modifier “Some kind of devotion…”. Well I would say that pretty much EVERY Catholic has “some kind of” devotion to Mary…whether she is the Mediatrix of all Graces or not.

We honor Mary for many reasons. But mainly our of Love for our Heavenly Mother and mother of our savior and King. For me - that is more than enough reason to Love her.

Peace
James

 

[ConstantineTG]

Hopefully this thread can get back to Byzantine views of Mary

 

[JRKH]

Hopefully this thread can get back to Byzantine views of Mary

Amen…Sorry for my part in the derailment.

Peace
James

 

[GaryTaylor]

Byzantine views of Mary

Does the Byzantine View differ from the Latin view and how so? From what I’m reading not at all. Here’s Patristics from East/West

google.com/url?q=http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/marian/5thdogma/patristics-1.htm&sa=U&ei=Y4h-UNGbCaP20gH5pYCgBw&ved=0CB4QFjAC&usg=AFQjCNHxlkaPUp_m1V6JlsKB8lIGdTPqcg

CTG your post is how the topic changed to the West. In all fainess prehaps we should clarify this mess now, which we see in the posts attempts being made to do so

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. “In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace.”

969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation … Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”

970 “Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it.”
“No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.”

1. This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until The eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.

For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.

The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary. It knows it through unfailing experience of it and commends it to the hearts of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the more intimately adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer.

However, my question is how does this proposed dogma change anything which has always been known? Here’s the thinking which by large when you reach the bottom seems to gain life at Franciscan University of Steubenville. I listened to this maybe a year or so ago with Scott Hahn and his guests with their proposed thinking and theology on the dogma, which through them and EWTN seems have gained in interest. I can’t remember the date, yet even a date was proposed in a sublime way to the Pope via National Television.

I don’t see what we are adding to what already exists. The Church associates the Church with Mary as Mother and perfect role model. Now if the Church is visable and invisable then how does this change anything?

google.com/url?q=http://www.fifthmariandogma.com/&sa=U&ei=8Xt-UOuELO7q0QH37YDwCA&ved=0CB4QFjAA&usg=AFQjCNFYhtKZE3lcTBXtWvhnhVUwhvufUw

Heres a view of Mary and the Church.

google.com/url?q=http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/resources/documents/docs4-2.html&sa=U&ei=IH5-ULnuOqXq0gG3_4H4Ag&ved=0CCcQFjAC&usg=AFQjCNFhrcgC_NNrmnT0aZWrfOoBnqBP2w

So Mary is the perfect icon of the motherhood of the Church no? I fail to see what change’s East or West except many doctrines which already exist become rolled into a fifth marion dogma and a new pious Dogma which in effect is a summary of the rest, no?

Isn’t the only contention of all this is that “ALL” Grace comes “through” Mary? Its not in other words all Grace comes “from” Mary. Course this thinking doesn’t consider that without God there is No Grace. Basically in essense its what Bl JP-II stated that Mary is a Blessing for all humanity from God.

Patristics do show Mary as Queen of Heaven etc. I don’t even see where it was a developing idea, I see this already developed by large very early on. Biblically “all” Grace did flow through Mary whom is Full of Grace at the incarnation. Did She get fired or demoted? Seems to me following the logic of the Church in time with its Saints, then Grace increase’s with the Lords will to those who submit to His will, as He wills. I see no change with Mary in Her progress of Grace or Her position in the order of Grace. Which has been self evident from Luke biblically.

 

[tafan]

Excuse me, but I never inserted “only”. It was in the original post. Please, before making such accusations, read the whole thread. And it was not from Timothy, it was from Richca right here forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9898563&postcount=34
.

Well, I had looked at post #30, which I will quote again; "But the Holy Spirit works through our Lady in the sanctification of mankind ", to which you replied in post 31 “This statement right here is dangerous that it can easily be misinterpreted to mean that the Holy Spirit **only **works through Mary”. So I am not for sure why you jumped to post 34. Hence my description of you inserting the word only to create the impression or a possibility of Marian worship.

It is only a myth to those in denial

I think it is a myth, it seems to be perpetuated by those Catholics who have some fear of the unfounded Protestant accusations of the same. Again, we need more devotion to Mary, not less.

 

[ConstantineTG]

CTG your post is how the topic changed to the West.

Its always my fault, isn’t it?

I just replied to the OPs assertion that the Byzantine view of Mary treats her as a goddess.

Well, I had looked at post #30, which I will quote again; "But the Holy Spirit works through our Lady in the sanctification of mankind ", to which you replied in post 31 “This statement right here is dangerous that it can easily be misinterpreted to mean that the Holy Spirit **only **works through Mary”. So I am not for sure why you jumped to post 34. Hence my description of you inserting the word only to create the impression or a possibility of Marian worship.

I think it is a myth, it seems to be perpetuated by those Catholics who have some fear of the unfounded Protestant accusations of the same. Again, we need more devotion to Mary, not less.

You said I made that assertion. I did not. I warned him about it but he clarified by affirming that claim which I already made the warning of.

It is not a myth, trust me. And this has been related by other people here as well. I hope you do appreciate what it means when an Easterner says something is unpatristic.

 

[Richca]

Originally Posted by Richca
For if the doctrine that Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces is true, then it is quite obvious that some kind of devotion to Mary is necessary for our salvation.

Rich,
I wanted to get back to this statement from your earlier post.

I’ve gone around and around with this in my head…and the only response I can come up with is …WHY?
Why - if the above doctrine is true - is devotion to Mary necessary for salvation?

I don’t understand the logic of your “IF - THEN” statement here. What makes this doctrine any different than the necessity of accepting the PV. or the IC or the Assumption…All things already dogmatically declared and the acceptance of which IS a necessary part of our salvation.

But then - you toss in the modifier “Some kind of devotion…”. Well I would say that pretty much EVERY Catholic has “some kind of” devotion to Mary…whether she is the Mediatrix of all Graces or not.

We honor Mary for many reasons. But mainly our of Love for our Heavenly Mother and mother of our savior and King. For me - that is more than enough reason to Love her.

Peace
James

Hi James, blessings and peace.
You made a very nice post in #104. I do believe that our “mom” is happy with us both even I who am a great sinner.

There are a number reasons why Mary deserves our love and devotion and certainly, as you say, that Mary is our heavenly mother and the mother of Jesus, alone explains much about her role in our spiritual life and our devotion to her. The statement I made above (top of post) doesn’t explain everything so I probably shouldn’t have made the statement or it needs to reworded with Mary being our heavenly mother, Mary our mother in the spiritual life, and so forth.

I think one could say that the doctrine that Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces is an extension of her motherhood. Just as we begin life in our mother’s womb and our natural mother’s give us birth into the world, nuture, protect and raise us so do we begin the life of grace, are nutured, protected and raised by Mary in cooperation with the Holy Spirit.

If we take a look at the doctrine of Mary the Mediatrix of all graces by itself which is apparently what I did in the above statement, then the following is the meaning to which I said. Following Montfort and Kolbe’s thought and teaching, Mary dispenses the gifts and graces of the Holy Spirit. This is the order, the way, or channel by which God established in dispensing his gifts and graces. It is certain that we all need grace to be sanctified, grow in the spiritual life, and finally hope to make it to heaven. Thus, Mary is our link to God’s gifts and graces, indeed to the trinity, which is why Montfort and Kolbe say that devotion to Mary is an essential means to sanctification. For if we want grace, then it makes sense to ask it of that person (Mary) who dispenses grace. This does not mean that we cannot pray or ask anything of God the Father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit or the saints. But we understand that all God’s graces pass through Mary’s hands even if we don’t think about it. Some people might think that this doctrine concerning Mary is a distraction in their relationship with God or Jesus. But this is not so. Mary leads us to God and Jesus for she knows far better than ourselves that God is our ultimate end and happiness. Obviously, Mary gives graces to many people who don’t know this truth. For her charity towards us is far, very far above that of any other creature. Kolbe says that God has given to Mary the role to manifest his mercy towards us while keeping to himself his order of justice.

Now, if you want to totally disregard the statement that I made, the one at the top of this post, that is fine with me. As I have said and you pointed out, the doctrine of Mary as Mediatrix of all graces isn’t the only doctrine about Mary that should incline us to have devotion to her. I completely agree with you that Mary’s motherhood over us can and should draw us to love and honor her.

 

[Richca]

Hi James, blessings and peace.
You made a very nice post in #104. I do believe that our “mom” is happy with us both even I who am a great sinner.

There are a number reasons why Mary deserves our love and devotion and certainly, as you say, that Mary is our heavenly mother and the mother of Jesus, alone explains much about her role in our spiritual life and our devotion to her. The statement I made above (top of post) doesn’t explain everything so I probably shouldn’t have made the statement or it needs to reworded with Mary being our heavenly mother, Mary our mother in the spiritual life, and so forth.

I think one could say that the doctrine that Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces is an extension of her motherhood. Just as we begin life in our mother’s womb and our natural mother’s give us birth into the world, nuture, protect and raise us so do we begin the life of grace, are nutured, protected and raised by Mary in cooperation with the Holy Spirit.

If we take a look at the doctrine of Mary the Mediatrix of all graces by itself which is apparently what I did in the above statement, then the following is the meaning to which I said. Following Montfort and Kolbe’s thought and teaching, Mary dispenses the gifts and graces of the Holy Spirit. This is the order, the way, or channel by which God established in dispensing his gifts and graces. It is certain that we all need grace to be sanctified, grow in the spiritual life, and finally hope to make it to heaven. Thus, Mary is our link to God’s gifts and graces, indeed to the trinity, which is why Montfort and Kolbe say that devotion to Mary is an essential means to sanctification. For if we want grace, then it makes sense to ask it of that person (Mary) who dispenses grace. This does not mean that we cannot pray or ask anything of God the Father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit or the saints. But we understand that all God’s graces pass through Mary’s hands even if we don’t think about it. Some people might think that this doctrine concerning Mary is a distraction in their relationship with God or Jesus. But this is not so. Mary leads us to God and Jesus for she knows far better than ourselves that God is our ultimate end and happiness. Obviously, Mary gives graces to many people who don’t know this truth. For her charity towards us is far, very far above that of any other creature. Kolbe says that God has given to Mary the role to manifest his mercy towards us while keeping to himself his order of justice.

Now, if you want to totally disregard the statement that I made, the one at the top of this post, that is fine with me. As I have said and you pointed out, the doctrine of Mary as Mediatrix of all graces isn’t the only doctrine about Mary that should incline us to have devotion to her. I completely agree with you that Mary’s motherhood over us can and should draw us to love and honor her.

Just something I wanted to add to the fourth paragraph in the above post.

If we take a look at the doctrine of Mary the Mediatrix of all graces by itself which is apparently what I did in the above statement, then the following is the meaning to which I said. Following Montfort and Kolbe’s thought and teaching, Mary dispenses the gifts and graces of the Holy Spirit. This is the order, the way, or channel by which God established in dispensing his gifts and graces. It is certain that we all need grace to be sanctified, grow in the spiritual life, and finally hope to make it to heaven. Thus, Mary is our link to God’s gifts and graces, indeed to the trinity, which is why Montfort and Kolbe say that devotion to Mary is an essential means to sanctification. For if we want grace, then it makes sense to ask it of that person (Mary) who dispenses grace. This does not mean that we cannot pray or ask anything of God the Father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit or the saints. But we understand that all God’s graces pass through Mary’s hands even if we don’t think about it. Some people might think that this doctrine concerning Mary is a distraction in their relationship with God or Jesus. But this is not so. Mary is the most Godlike of creatures, she is full of grace and the love of God and neighbor. Some saints have said that Mary’s love of God and neighbor surpasses that of all the blessed in heaven including the angels combined.** I do not doubt this**. Mary leads us to God and Jesus for she knows far better than ourselves that God is our ultimate end and happiness. Obviously, Mary gives graces to many people who don’t know this truth. For her charity towards us is far, very far above that of any other creature. Kolbe says that God has given to Mary the role to manifest his mercy towards us while keeping to himself his order of justice.

 

[JRKH]

…Now, if you want to totally disregard the statement that I made, the one at the top of this post, that is fine with me. As I have said and you pointed out, the doctrine of Mary as Mediatrix of all graces isn’t the only doctrine about Mary that should incline us to have devotion to her. I completely agree with you that Mary’s motherhood over us can and should draw us to love and honor her.

Rich, I considered disregarding the statement and probably would have except for your inclusion of the phrase “necessary for salvation”. Such a statement required further attention.

Now to some thoughts on your explanation of Montfort and Kolbe’s thought and teaching…

.
If we take a look at the doctrine of Mary the Mediatrix of all graces by itself which is apparently what I did in the above statement, then the following is the meaning to which I said. Following Montfort and Kolbe’s thought and teaching, Mary dispenses the gifts and graces of the Holy Spirit.

Gifts and graces that she receives from God for the specific purpose purpose intended by God. Since we know that Mary can do nothing that God does not permit, it follows that she cannot dispense or withhold on any gifts or graces her own…but only as God directs.

This is the order, the way, or channel by which God established in dispensing his gifts and graces.

I have no problem with whatever mechanism our Heavenly Father has established for getting graces from Himself to His Children.

It is certain that we all need grace to be sanctified, grow in the spiritual life, and finally hope to make it to heaven.

Agreed.

Thus, Mary is our link to God’s gifts and graces, indeed to the trinity, which is why Montfort and Kolbe say that devotion to Mary is an essential means to sanctification.

This is where the logic breaks down for me…God provides the graces…it is He who decides who gets what, when and how. By the Mediatrix doctrine, He gives these gifts to Mary already “Packed, labeled and addressed”. She then delivers the package as directed by God. Certainly each one deserves my gratitude, but how much devotion - how much thanks - do I owe the originator of the package and how much devotion do I owe to the deliverer of the package?

For if we want grace, then it makes sense to ask it of that person (Mary) who dispenses grace.

Nope…If I want to order a book from EWTN, I don’t ask UPS for it…
Forgive my course example here…I mean no denigration to our Lady or to the Sts Montort or Kolbe.
But as I stated above. It is God who determines who gets what in the grace department. Prayer to Mary is for intercession with Jesus - who intercedes with the Father. Once she gets the OK (the earlier described package) from the Father, then she may dispense/deliver that package. Mary can do nothing on her own, but only in union with the Father and at the Father’s pleasure.

This does not mean that we cannot pray or ask anything of God the Father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit or the saints. But we understand that all God’s graces pass through Mary’s hands even if we don’t think about it.

And I have no problem with this. I just don’t see how knowing this or not knowing it effects my daily walk in faith.

Some people might think that this doctrine concerning Mary is a distraction in their relationship with God or Jesus.

Yes I’m sure some do. Such doctrines are certainly a stumbling block for our protestant brothers - It’s not much of a distraction for me since I basically ignore it. Just as I basically ignore how a letter is routed to me from across the country. My interest is in where it came from and what it says.

But this is not so. Mary is the most Godlike of creatures, she is full of grace and the love of God and neighbor. Some saints have said that Mary’s love of God and neighbor surpasses that of all the blessed in heaven including the angels combined.** I do not doubt this**.

A beautiful description of our Mother’s Love.

Mary leads us to God and Jesus for she knows far better than ourselves that God is our ultimate end and happiness.

And would Mary be less capable of such leading if God did NOT dispense graces through Her? Somehow I think not…

Obviously, Mary gives graces to many people who don’t know this truth. For her charity towards us is far, very far above that of any other creature. Kolbe says that God has given to Mary the role to manifest his mercy towards us while keeping to himself his order of justice.

Mary gives graces as willed by the Father. this is as it should be.

Peace
James

 

[TimothyH]

Gifts and graces that she receives from God for the specific purpose purpose intended by God. Since we know that Mary can do nothing that God does not permit, it follows that she cannot dispense or withhold on any gifts or graces her own…but only as God directs.

This is where the logic breaks down for me…God provides the graces…it is He who decides who gets what, when and how. By the Mediatrix doctrine, He gives these gifts to Mary already “Packed, labeled and addressed”. She then delivers the package as directed by God. Certainly each one deserves my gratitude, but how much devotion - how much thanks - do I owe the originator of the package and how much devotion do I owe to the deliverer of the package?

No, Mary is not a robot, nor a delivery truck driver, not does she merely parrot what Her Son says nor wait patiently for instructions before she acts.

Each one of us can choose to be a source of grace and conversion in someone else’s life, or we can choose to sit at home and do nothing. We can inteceded with God on behalf of someone else in prayer, we can assist them when they are down, we can forgive them when they treat us like garbage, but the ability for us to do so comes from the strength we oursleves recieve from God and this strength ultimately has God as its source. We do not parrot God, nor are we robots, yet we are channels of God’s grace. We magnify the Lord.

Mary is no different. Mary is human, and has a will. More than that, she is a mother - mine and yours and Jesus’ - and a mother acts on behalf of her children. Her motherhood did not cease when she was assumed into heaven, but like any mother, she takes initiative, and acts.

-Tim-

 

[JRKH]

No, Mary is not a robot, nor a delivery truck driver, not does she merely parrot what Her Son says nor wait patiently for instructions before she acts.

Each one of us can choose to be a source of grace and conversion in someone else’s life, or we can choose to sit at home and do nothing. We can inteceded with God on behalf of someone else in prayer, we can assist them when they are down, we can forgive them when they treat us like garbage, but the ability for us to do so comes from the strength we ourselves recieve from God and this strength ultimately has God as its source. We do not parrot God, nor are we robots, yet we are channels of God’s grace. We magnify the Lord.

Mary is no different. Mary is human, and has a will. More than that, she is a mother - mine and yours and Jesus’ - and a mother acts on behalf of her children. Her motherhood did not cease when she was assumed into heaven, but like any mother, she takes initiative, and acts.

-Tim-

Thank you for sharing this. It indeed makes sense.
I will ponder what you have written…

Peace
James

 

[TimothyH]

The study of Scripture is where we find Mary’s role. Mary is especially found by looking at the holy women such as Rebekka, Esther and mother of the seven brothers in 2 Maccabees, chapter 7

***Filled with a noble spirit that stirred her womanly heart with manly courage, she exhorted each of them in the language of their forefathers with these words: "I do not know how you came into existence in my womb; it was not I who gave you the breath of life, nor was it I who set in order the elements of which each of you is composed. Therefore, since it is the Creator of the universe who shapes each man’s beginning, as he brings about the origin of everything, he, in his mercy, will give you back both breath and life, because you now disregard yourselves *for the sake of his law." (2 Maccabees 7:21-23)

This is the story of a Mother who, faced with the greusome death of her sons, exhorted them to courage and faithfulness, knowing like Abraham that her sons would be ressurected from the dead. People think Mary was passive, that she sat crying under the cross helplessly, but that is not so. Mary encouraged her son to be faithful - not my will but thy will be done - to his vocation as redeemer of mankind. Mary reminded him every step of the way that this was his mission, and encouraged him ever step of the way in her faith that God would raise him from the dead.

The LORD God said: "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a suitable helpmate for him." (Genesis 2:18)

Mary is the New Eve, the perfect helpmate for the New Adam, and a sharer in his vocation, one who would encourage him and assist him.

When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” Jesus said to her, “Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.” (John 2:3-4)

Mary was given the singular priviledge of setting in motion Jesus public ministry, a ministry which would ultimately lead to his death, and to the redemtion of all mankind. Jesus didn’t want to do it! Mary encouraged him. Mary acted.

This isn’t some 14 year old peasant girl sheepishly doing what she is told. This is a Jewish mother. I grew up in New York. I know Jewish mothers and passive obedience is not one of their attributes. Mary was bold and courageous, just like Queen Esther…

***Thus prepared, I will go to the king, contrary to the law. If I die, I die!" *(Esther 4:16)

Mary acts on behalf of us who don’t know any better, just like Rebekka acted on behalf of her son Jacob…

***His mother, however, replied: "Let any curse against you, son, fall on me! Just do as I say. *(Genesis 27:13)

And Mary encouraged her Son in his vocation, even when he himself was not willing to start down that road - just like the mother of the 7 sons in 2 Maccabees.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

Thank you for sharing this. It indeed makes sense.
I will ponder what you have written…

Peace
James

James, that is one of the most beautiful things I can ever hear anyone say to me. It fills me with peace, and quite frankly no little humility, to read that. They are not my words, but thank you.

I’m going back to work now.

-Tim-

 

[Cavaradossi]

I actually agree with what you write here, but I would point out that Palamas stresses that Mary is the conduit of Grace not just in one moment, but for all time. She is eternally the mediator of all Grace, according to Palamas, precisely because of the relationship you point out.

Neither East nor West claim she has anything special by nature; it is purely because of Grace, and her unique relationship with God, that she is elevated above all creation.

Palamas says, in the Homily:

After death, she has found immortality, and in Her body dwells in Heaven together with Her Son and God. Therefore, She pours forth abundant grace on those honoring Her. She even bestows on us the boldness to hasten unto Her, for She is the vessel of so many graces. She distributes blessings generously on us, and never ceases this profitable bestowal and gracious help.

I am not so sure that I can fully agree, because statements from the fathers, just like the scriptures, need to be read in context of the liturgical life of the Church, and the liturgical life of the Church makes it clear that she is to be honored for her role in the incarnation, which alone sets her apart from the rest of creation, and sets her above the angels and all other men. There is an entire liturgical and historical context (one with which Gregory Palamas would have been most familiar), in which this sermon must be read. I must contend that in the case of this sermon, as is true of certain scriptural passages (like calling the Son of God the first-born of creation), the most obvious reading at the surface-level is not the correct interpretation of the passage.

 

[Peter_J]

I’m sure that “mom” is pleased with us both…

I’m not sure Mary is pleased by people saying that devotion to her is necessary for salvation. (Although it may, perhaps, be unnecessary to point that out to you.)

 

[twf]

I’m not sure Mary is pleased by people saying that devotion to her is necessary for salvation. (Although it may, perhaps, be unnecessary to point that out to you.)

Participation in the liturgical life of the Church is necessary for salvation; participation in the liturgical life of the Church intrinsically involves honoring and invoking the Mother of God.