The call to 'jihad' by Prophet Jesus (pbuh)

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Oh, I dunno. In old symbolisms the sword is often used as sign of conflict, not just the war faring kind. It can symbolize a conflict of words. Blocked progression. Not seeing clearly, or understanding. Sometimes those struggles come from without, sometimes from within oneself.

It can also symbolize the sharpness of the sword. Clarity. Slicing through conflict (again, not always of the war faring kind). And is definitely a sign of power.

I don’t know if that is what Christ was referring to, but sword as symbol does not always = bloodshed.
 
Jesus claiming authority to change the sabbath is a claim to be God as Rabbi Jacob Neusber says and Pope Benedict quotes in his book Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus claims the title of God, I AM, in John8. John1 says of Jesus, “In the begining was the word and the word was with God and the word was God…and the word was made flesh and dwelt among us.” It is undeniable that the scriptures teach that Jesus us God.

In regards to your quote of Jesus, you should try to get a complete understanding of the scriptures. Jesus also calls His hearers to turn the other cheak. When He mentions the sword He is not calling them to war. To say this would be similar to saying that the kingdom of heaven is literally a pearl as Jesus claims in Matt.13.
 
This man Hamaba is wasting our time. He took a few words from the Gospel out of context and began spouting for what took him 10 minutes disparaging the Faith with what he must hear at the mosque from time to time.

He did not bother putting down substantial arguments, but neglected the obvious context. When he was done taking his 10 minutes, he accomplished taking up the time of many apologists who would otherwise have been able to accomplish much more in the name of our Most Holy Lord.

These muslims who post are smart. They harass us and distract us from our true objective of leading oursleves and others to God. Every time I preruse the site I see the same thing. I can only conclude that it is a purposeful plot by the Moslems to prevent us from effectively converting souls to Christ.

😃 SO, I propose we more succintly answer in say a paragraph. Just 1 of us ONLY. When the Moslem responds and takes his precious prostelysing time and ONLY THEN do 1 of us respond. In this way we are not harassed to the great detriment to our own spreading of the Faith.

Anyone else like to be in on this method?

Instead, we should be focusing on converting all those around us who will listen. Shake the dust from our feet for this one…

I do have the following question that came up for a neighbor (that I just am posting in another thread):​

I have been searching for a good Catholic apologetic resource to give to a Muslim neighbor for a number of YEARS without any good luck.

Most of the English material available explains the faith by explaining the fallacy of Protestantism. The problem is a Muslim has not already accepted the veracity of the Bible at all!

A Muslim needs a convincing argument made for the truth of sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church made without already assuming the Bible is true.

A Muslim certainly does not need the arguments an atheist would need, nor a protestant. He already accepts a God, and so the focus needs to be on why the Church is profoundly true (O Joy!). The Catholic literature regarding Mohammedanism is good but unsuitable since it deals mostly with criticisms of Islam. I feel he needs the case for Catholicism to be first expounded independent of the fallacies of Islam.

He is intelligent and so any pamphlet, book, DVD, Father of the Church etc. would be suitable. Unfortunately there seems to be a profound scarcity of materials suited for proclaiming the truth of our Lord Christ to Muslims.

After moving in next to him, I was promptly given excellent literature proclaiming the truth of Islam. It was very nicely produced (of a much higher intellectual appeal and logic than the Mormon propaganda). It quite resoundingly echoed Aristotle’s 5 proofs of God and echoed Humani Generis on evolution. I was VERY impressed with the presentation. Many full length color CDs and booklets. If not blessed (and aware of) the richness of the Catholic Faith, I am sure it would appeal to MANY PEOPLE. I found it disheartening that I could not find a resource that made an appeal to someone who believed in (one) God , but not the Bible.

I was glad to reciprocate (and of reminded of the courteousness in Arabian Nights or the chivalrous exchanges during the crusades). I was more delighted that I had the occasion to proclaim the Faith, and promptly looked for something to give him when I ran into all the problems mentioned above! This raised red alarms for me that Catholics are lacking in this area of proclaiming the Faith for what suits actually most people in our post-Protestant time. They believe vaguely in an indistinct God, and have never heard the case for true Christianity (Catholicism). What miracles of conversion could we expect if we but gave them the outstanding case for our love of Christ? Well just because we have not had good luck in the past does not mean we can give up. St. Francis’s did not and his life was defended by a Sultan while proclaiming Christ crucified! What does it say if we are not drenching the world in the clear case for Christ?

I will give my Muslim neighbor a Christmas gift this year- and all I have so far to explain the Faith is the entire Summa Theologica, which is bound to overwhelm without a more concise explanation in addition. Fulton Sheen’s Catholic Catechism talks are well-suited also, but are too long to be concise.

Would you be kind enough to recommend something I can give that would proclaim the Faith to someone who believes in God but not the Bible? If it contains some refutation of Islam that is OK so long as it hits only the high points (no proof that Islam is from God etc, and does not disparage Mohammed’s character although I know it is a tempting target).
 
There are already too many different subjects being brought up in this thread and I think it would be best for me to address them one subject at a time.

And the first matter is – Why should Jesus (pbuh) say that two swords are “enough” and not simply order his disciples to put the swords away if it was true that he was not preparing for battle?

The answer is that he was indeed preparing for it and the reason why two swords were enough is because he was not contemplating a battle against the legions of Rome but rather, since Judas was in league with the Temple authorities, Jesus was expecting a clandestine, underhand attempt by the Jewish oligarchy to seize him.

It would be a question of Jews against Jews and because Jesus had with him Peter (the Rock) and John and James (the sons of Thunder) together with the other eight, each vying with one another to go to prison for him and to die for him, he was understandably confident that just two swords would be enough for him and his disciples to overcome their enemies.

Armed with sticks and stones, and the swords, and fortified with the spirit of self-sacrifice which they had avowed for their Master, this was what this ‘jihad’ was about.

However, during the night, the disciples were literally caught napping and the enemy suceeded in overpowering them.

Jesus had not anticipated Roman soldiers. Realising that the tables were turned against his misconceived strategy, he then advises his disciples:

". . . Put up again thy sword into its place; for all they that TAKE THE SWORD shall PERISH WITH THE SWORD."Matthew 26:52

The situation changes, so the strategy must also change. Jesus had sense enough to realise that against trained and well-equipped Roman soldiers it would be suicidal for his sleepy warriors to offer even a pretence of resistance.

Why don’t Christians give Jesus (pbuh) credit for this simple common-sense? Because they have been programmed for a period of two thousand years that Jesus, the “lamb”, the “prince of peace”, couldn’t harm a fly. They overlook the other side of his nature which demanded blood and fire! They forget his instructions to his soldiers regarding those of his enemies who would not like him to rule over them, to bring them forth:

. . . and SLAY them before me."Luke 19:27

"Think NOT that I am come to send PEACE on earth; I. came NOT to send PEACE, but a SWORD."Matthew 10:34

"I am come to send FIRE on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
Suppose ye that I am come to give PEACE on earth? I tell you, NAY; but rather DIVISION."
Luke 12:49 & 51

And so then, Prophet Jesus (pbuh) like Prophet Moses (pbuh) and all the other Prophets (pbut) before him was a true “jihadist” in every sense of the word… and Muslims have absolutely no need whatsoever to overlook this aspect of his character in order to wholeheartedly accept him as one of the mightiest Messengers of Allah.
Dear Hamba2han,

Although Jesus could raise people from the dead, two swords and 13 people against one or more companies of temple guards was not a good odd to conduct a clandestine activity. We do not have the same conclusion because we think that you have watched too many Kung-Fu movies, where the Kungfu master able to defeat hundreds of opponents just by a single sword. Based on the number alone, realistically, a clandestine activity with only two swords is not good enough. It will only work in a movie. Come on brother, be realistic. You did wake a sleepy eye tough.
 
Dear Hamba2han,

Although Jesus could raise people from the dead, two swords and 13 people against one or more companies of temple guards was not a good odd to conduct a clandestine activity. We do not have the same conclusion because we think that you have watched too many Kung-Fu movies, where the Kungfu master able to defeat hundreds of opponents just by a single sword. Based on the number alone, realistically, a clandestine activity with only two swords is not good enough. It will only work in a movie. Come on brother, be realistic. You did wake a sleepy eye tough.
Maybe we should give poor Hamba the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps he was thinking of Muslim terrorist tactics to get a large force multiplier from the two guys with the swords? You know, unless everyone agreed to convert they could threaten to kill themselves and invoke God’s avenging wrath on millions of God’s enemies? Or maybe start cutting off limbs and tossing them at their enemies? 🤷

Or perhaps he is very afraid of the amazing might of individual Christians and imagines each of us is like onto Samson; where any one of us can slay thousands with only the jawbone of an a_ss (sic for filter scanner)? 😉 Frankly, in this latter case early Christians wouldn’t even have need of swords. They could have just kept people like himself at hand. Then incite him to run at the mouth anytime we wanted 1000’s more converts looking to escape the pathetic nonsense.

James
 
Shot down in flames once again Ham!
Just convert to Catholicism, you will feel much better!😉
 
do you even know what Jilhad really means?..it’s Holy War…it’s killing for the sake of religion by Islam…what do you think Al-Queada is doing?..they are sane people, who are practising TRUE Islam…I can quote you lots of verses from the Quran that encourage this

Jesus never tells anyone to kill…but Muhamad is a killer
😦 Yes - Mammon is a Killer!

We are I believe called to Justice. I believe that if we stand by and allow say Al-Queada or other such movements to go unchecked we are not following our faith to seek justice. During WWII many stood by and allowed peoples to be enslaved and killed by Hitler’s law. What a mortal sin that was!

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a7.htm#2425

2424 A theory that makes profit the exclusive norm and ultimate end of economic activity is morally unacceptable. The disordered desire for money cannot but produce perverse effects. It is one of the causes of the many conflicts which disturb the social order.204

A system that “subordinates the basic rights of individuals and of groups to the collective organization of production” is contrary to human dignity.205 Every practice that reduces persons to nothing more than a means of profit enslaves man, leads to idolizing money, and contributes to the spread of atheism. "You cannot serve God and mammon."206

Werman
 
This man Hamaba is wasting our time. He took a few words from the Gospel out of context and began spouting for what took him 10 minutes disparaging the Faith with what he must hear at the mosque from time to time
unfortunately, Hamba is quoting some Muslim “apologetics”.

If this is the best some “apologetics” could come up with, can we blame other Muslims?

Besides, theology domain is not very interesting with all Muslims. When you go to Islamic sites, the threads you’d encounter are such like "what not to eat, how to dress, how to do prayers, how to clean yourself, what to do if …what not to do if…ecc. You can barely find an interesting theological thread that’s why many Muslims who join Christian forums tend to have very shallow approaches to our scriptures and theology in general.

Last, what can we expect from people who see it a miracle that a mosque was not demolished in a tsunami yet thousands of muslims died?🤷
 
Matthew 10
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it


This is what a ‘cross’ in the above passage looks like:



Where do Christians get the idea that it means crucifix instead?

And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.Matthew 10:38

Looking at the context of the passage, the ‘cross’ in this verse obviously means the ‘cross of the sword’ and it just does not much sense at all for it to mean ‘crucifix’.
 
Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus (pbuh) unequivocally says that he is God and then proceeds to command his followers to worship him.
Many places in Sacred Scripture does Our Lord claim to be God.

Here are just a few examples of where Jesus Christ claims that He is God.

Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, “you shall not tempt the Lord your God” in reference to Himself.
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				Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to  					God when He declares, "You heard it said...but I say to you.."

				
				Matt. 7:21-22; Luke 6:46 - not everyone who says to Jesus, "Lord, Lord." Jesus  					calls Himself Lord, which is God.

				
				Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48 - Jesus forgives sins. Only God can  					forgive sins.

				
				Matt. 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 - Jesus says that He is "Lord of the Sabbath."  					He is the Lord of God's law which means He is God.

				
				Matt. 18:20 - Jesus says where two or three are gathered in His name, there He  					is in the midst of them.

				
				Matt. 21:3; Luke 19:31,34 - Jesus calls himself "Lord." "The Lord has need of  					them."

				
				Matt. 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:70 - Jesus acknowledges that He is the Son of  					God.

				
				Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said He is with us always, even unto the end of the world.  					Only God is omnipresent.

				
				Mark 14:36 - Jesus calls God "Abba," Aramaic for daddy, which was an absolutely  					unprecedented address to God and demonstrates Jesus' unique intimacy with the  					Father.

				
				Luke 8:39 - Luke reports that Jesus said "tell how much God has done for you."  					And the man declared how much Jesus did.

				
				Luke 17:18 - Jesus asks why the other nine lepers did not come back to give  					praise to Him, God, except the Samaritan leper.

				
				Luke 19:38,40 - Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. If these were  					silent, the very stones would cry out.

				
				John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. The Jews knew this because Jesus called  					God His Father and made Himself equal to God. This is why Jesus was crucified.

				
				John 5:21-22 - Jesus gives life and says that all judgment has been given to  					Him by the Father.

				
				John 5:23 - Jesus equates Himself with the Father, "whoever does not honor the  					Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."

				
				John 6:38 - Jesus says, "For I have come down from heaven."
 
Where do Christians get the idea that it means crucifix instead?
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.Matthew 10:38

Looking at the context of the passage, the ‘cross’ in this verse obviously means the ‘cross of the sword’ and it just does not much sense at all for it to mean ‘crucifix’.
The answer is we are educated and understand how to read and know the meanings of words beyond the level of a child. Islam came 600 years after Christ. Before Mohammad was even taught as a grown man to read by his first Catholic wife or before he even existed Christians have been teaching Jesus’ message. What you profess is an incomplete knowledge and is not truth. How can you ignore the verse I just quoted where Jesus expressly told his followers to put down their swords and take up their cross? He used different words for each thing - therefor they are clearly not the same thing. The cross is symbolic of “suffering” that God may ask His people to endure for His sake. That is being obedient to God through full choice. You as a Muslim should appreciate the truth in being obedient. Therefor, you need to be obedient to God and not put words into His mouth that He did not say or you will be condemned for doing so. Again you have been warned and your own Koran warns against this same thing (since it took all those verses from the Jews and the Christians who had them first).

James
 
He may be telling us, look if you want to interpret the Quran literally, we can do the same for your Bible. What’s the different between the peaceful Mohammad and the peaceful Jesus when it comes to defending the faith? Both mentioned the swords and yet both also preached about peace.
one main difference: christians never used that verse to justify physical violence. nevah! 👍

while muslims use mohammad’s violent verses literally all the time. :rolleyes:
 
This may be slightly off topic, but after seeing this in so many posts in relation to Islam I had to ask…what is (pbuh)?:confused:
 
So sad that you can distort the cross, the salvation of all mankind, into a weapon.😦
 
This may be slightly off topic, but after seeing this in so many posts in relation to Islam I had to ask…what is (pbuh)?:confused:
It’s a standard Islamic boilerplate expression meaning “peace be upon him” used when speaking of anyone regarded as having some religious relationship with God (e.g. prophet, teacher or holy man). But its so often stated at every exchange that its almost the marker of a false piety or false asceticism.

James
 
It’s a standard Islamic boilerplate expression meaning “peace be upon him” used when speaking of anyone regarded as having some religious relationship with God (e.g. prophet, teacher or holy man). But its so often stated at every exchange that its almost the marker of a false piety or false asceticism.

James
Thanks.🙂
 
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