The call to 'jihad' by Prophet Jesus (pbuh)

[4horseman]

I guess the most recent call to jihad was commited by this countrys highest office. He stated on TV one night when asked by reporters if he had sought the advice of those with experience in past wars, his responce was “I have sought advice from the highest power”… :

 

[CentralFLJames]

Suppose that someone claims that one of the apostles said so and so about something that Jesus (pbuh) might have said and did, can any Christian scholar then provide a chain of narration which traces precisely how this narration was transmitted from the person who finally wrote it down all the way up to the person who heard either what the said apostle said or what Jesus (pbuh) himself said?

It is simply not possible for any Christian scholar to do this because no such chain of narrations exists for the sayings of Jesus (pbuh) nor that of his disciples.

And in Judaism, isnad only started to be used during the Talmudic period i.e. 200-500 CE and it could indeed be that this method of authentication by isnad was introduced by the Jews who reverted to Islam.

Hamba - this is what is so profound about the Bible. It is not only literally and compositionally beautiful and consistent. But it is also a structure that is clearly not made my man - since it was built verse by verse by God operating through different men’s labor over thousands of years. It is impossible that it is a lie and not man-made since its impossible for man to cooperate in a lie over many generations. This is why God slowly revealed the truth to many men so no one could claim “a single man” invented it. God even uses the conflicts of humans recorded in the early histories of the peoples from the old testament to prove the truth and make it self ratifying. There is such amazing consistency from different prophets and men from different Jewish tribes and independent apostles. While there were human conflicts and tribal competitions none of God’s prophesies recorded by al these different men of God contradict each other! God uses man’s imperfection to reveal Himself and to prove no man could have invented a lie.

In the Bible we always have 2 or more independent sources of prophets (usually a lot more) from the old testament and the new testament that always can ratify truth with. Since Holy Scripture can never be in contradiction with another part of Holy Scripture (since God does not lie) we know immediately when somone misinterprets. So if somone chooses an improper interpretation of one verse - it will always contradict at least one other scriptural verse to expose a human interpretation error! The church uses traditions and scholarly works to decide which verse is the one improperly interpreted and never guesses.

Note that few of the prophets lived at the same time (thousands of years apart in some cases) and few of them were in the same tribes and geographical cities and states. So its clear there is no grand conspiracy. God even uses the minor secular conflicts between competing Jewish tribes (as recorded in the Bible) and even among the apostles to prove that there is no way there could have been a collaboration to deceive people. We even have documents from Roman historians and other sources that independently ratify many of the things recorded in the bible.

The problem with the Koran is that it was not written down for 200 years. Even Mohammad’s favorite wife Aisha (who he married at age 6 and consummated at age 9) attests that a goat ate many of Mohammed’s original teachings written in scattered notes that were in her tent after his death. Ironically those lost teachings were about women and were more severe than even the current ones . The rest of Muhammad’s teachings were scattered all over. Some were written down on bits of bone, some on parchment, some even tattooed on his men’s backs. But a lot if it was handed down through tribal oral tradition. The problem with that is the Sunni and Shia fought immediately after Mohammad died and each invented their own tradition!!! So its is IMPOSSIBLE for the Koran to be truth since Islam is a house divided in war from the instant of Muhammad’s death!

So after 200 years somone finally decided to try to recollect all the different information into one book called the Koran. But there are clear textual errors - especially in the areas that misquote Christian and Jewish scriptures. There is also very little elegant structure and literary multi-dimensionality in the Koran. It is a work of man - not a work of God. It is not even in the same league of sophistication, grace and beauty as the Bible in a literary sense. The hand of God is clearly seen in the Bible. What we see in the Koran is the hand of illiteracy, crude intellect and forced human construction as well as individual fabrications from its scribes.

Hamba - please do yourself an eternal favor and spend at least two months studying Christianity. It will bring tears of joy to your eyes when you discover God wants you to be His child. The Koran is just going to dull your mind and make you see a very primitive moral code and keep you from the truth and your salvation.

God Bless,
James

 

[Denis_Laplante]

Suppose that someone claims that one of the apostles said so and so about something that Jesus (pbuh) might have said and did, can any Christian scholar then provide a chain of narration which traces precisely how this narration was transmitted from the person who finally wrote it down all the way up to the person who heard either what the said apostle said or what Jesus (pbuh) himself said?

It is simply not possible for any Christian scholar to do this because no such chain of narrations exists for the sayings of Jesus (pbuh) nor that of his disciples.

And in Judaism, isnad only started to be used during the Talmudic period i.e. 200-500 CE and it could indeed be that this method of authentication by isnad was introduced by the Jews who reverted to Islam.

Dear Hamba2han, maybe I simply don’t understand well what you mean with “providing a chain of narration which traces precisely HOW this narration was transmitted from the person who finally wrote it down ALL THE WAY up to the person who heard either what the said apostle said or what Jesus (pbuh) himself said?”
Do you mean to say that, for instance, A would quote the prophet Muhammad as saying this and this, and then say he got that from B, who got that from C, who got that from D, and D from E, E from F, F from G, G from H, H from I, I from J, and so forth, and the last one of the series would have heard it himself from the prophet, is this how it works?
Say, there must not have been too much trust among Muhammad’s discples and potential successors, or was there? I am merely telling the first impression I get from this. Why would someone really trusting in Allah have to take SO MUCH care and precautions, if Allah’s messages were to prevail?
As for the Fathers of the Church, when they quoted from the Old and the New Testament, they probably mentioned the book, or the gospel, or the epistle where the quote came from.
As for the canon of the New Testament, I am sure that the Church, which already bore the name Catholic then (Ignatius of Antioch already used such expression in his epistles, and he died in 107 A.D.!!), took the time to carefully study the books, so as to keep some, delete others. You seem to know Allah so well, isn’t there some things you still don’t know about Him? God revealed Himself, but we don’t pretend to know Him completely, since He is a Mystery. We don’t pretend to tell Him how to do things, even though some among us would indeed question His ways…
Also, how are you so sure that what is said to be Allah’s own words in the Koran really are His? For instance, how can God ask us to slain the infidels when in the Bible He says: Thou shalt not kill! (Ex. 20 and Deut.5). The Ten Commandments are still to be obeyed for as long as the present world is, aren’t they?
Still, there is a spiritual way to “slain the infidel”, that is the infidel in you: you get rid of your sins and of your sinful inclinations, and you live according to Allah’s will. Then you truly have slained the infidel in you, haven’t you, since you are not infidel any more…

 

[hamba2han]

The problem with the Koran is that it was not written down for 200 years.

Just where did you get this information from??

This is ABSOLUTELY not true.

The Qur’an was completed and authenticated by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself shortly before he died and hence it did NOT undergo any process of isnad whatsoever… as opposed to the collection of hadiths which were compiled much later after the Prophet’s death, hence the use of isnad and the ‘Science of Hadith’ as a means of authentication for these ahadith.

The Qur’an we have today is, word for word and syllable for syllable, exactly the same as that which was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) some 1,400 years ago.

 

[Denis_Laplante]

OK then, can you kindly provide the isnad concerning the time when Jesus (pbuh) allegedly “miraculously” turned water into wine at the ‘Wedding of Cana’?

Have you indeed any reports of wonder works performed by the prophet Muhammad?
Allah bless you!

 

[inJESUS]

OK then, can you kindly provide the isnad concerning the time when Jesus (pbuh) allegedly “miraculously” turned water into wine at the ‘Wedding of Cana’?

I do not believe that you have a clue what the term isnad really means.

To remedy this, you can read ‘isnad’ and the ‘Science of Hadith’ at Wikipedia.

if you read my answer you wouldn’t have replied with this. I thought my english is pretty simple .

I do know what isnad is. And i know what hadith is. From this same hadith i can quote dozens of wars lead by muhammad and his followers. Search any Christian tradition and the whole NT, and find me ONE battle lead by Jesus or His apostles since works speak louder than words. If you cannot find just one, then case closed and no room for comparision between Jesus and someone like Muhammad.

 

[Denis_Laplante]

Something bugs my mind about all that Allah is said to have told Muhammad… How could the prophet tell the difference between what came from Allah and what came from a spirit which tried to make him believe that he was Allah? Is it said somewhere, or do Muslims just assume that he was somehow able to discern it? And how do Muslims themselves tell?
Because we know that Satan can pose as an angel of God speaking in His Name, as it is shown in the Gospels’ passages about Jesus being tempted by Satan in the desert (in the Gospel according to Matthew, Mark and Luke). And he can trick many people, as he did in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve…
Allah bless you

 

[Denis_Laplante]

if you read my answer you wouldn’t have replied with this. I thought my english is pretty simple .
I do know what isnad is. And i know what hadith is. From this same hadith i can quote dozens of wars lead by muhammad and his followers.

I don’t know what’s happening here! What hamba2han replied to inJESUS seems to indicate that either he misread him, or that he meant something else when he said: “I don’t think you know what a isnad is.” Did he mean something like: “You don’t know what’s implied in being a isnad.” But then, it would not be relevant to our present discussion about the authenticity of Islamic, and of Christian, traditions…

 

[hamba2han]

Have you indeed any reports of wonder works performed by the Prophet Muhammad?
Allah bless you!

Yes, Muslims have indeed such a wonder work… it is called the Qur’an, the timeless miracle that is the ultimate proof of the Truth of Islam.

However, there are also numerous other miracles that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) performed with the help of Allah and which have been recorded through isnad and the Science of Hadith.

This is just one of them:

On more than one occasion when people were in dire need of water, the blessing of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) saved them. In the sixth year after the he migrated from Mecca to Medina, Muhammad went to Mecca for pilgrimage. In the long journey through the desert, people ran out of all water, only the Prophet was left with a vessel with which he performed ablution for prayers. He put his hand in vessel, water began flowing from between his fingers. Jabir bin Abdullah, who witnessed the miracle, says of the fifteen hundred men, ‘We drank it and made ablution.’ This miracle has been transmitted with an unbroken chain of reliable scholars (hadith mutawatir).

The sprouting of water from human fingers is similar to Prophet Moses’ (pbuh) miracle of producing water from a rock.

Question is – Would non-Muslims believe the veracity of this miracle more than they would the Qur’an?

If not, then this just shows the futility of showing these other miracles of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to those who simply do not want to believe.

 

[Booklover]

Yes, Muslims have indeed such a wonder work… it is called the Qur’an, the timeless miracle that is the ultimate proof of the Truth of Islam.

However, there are also numerous other miracles that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) performed with the help of Allah and which have been recorded through isnad and the Science of Hadith.

This is just one of them:

On more than one occasion when people were in dire need of water, the blessing of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) saved them. In the sixth year after the he migrated from Mecca to Medina, Muhammad went to Mecca for pilgrimage. In the long journey through the desert, people ran out of all water, only the Prophet was left with a vessel with which he performed ablution for prayers. He put his hand in vessel, water began flowing from between his fingers. Jabir bin Abdullah, who witnessed the miracle, says of the fifteen hundred men, ‘We drank it and made ablution.’ This miracle has been transmitted with an unbroken chain of reliable scholars (hadith mutawatir).

The sprouting of water from human fingers is similar to Prophet Moses’ (pbuh) miracle of producing water from a rock.

Question is – Would non-Muslims believe the veracity of this miracle more than they would the Qur’an?

If not, then this just shows the futility of showing these other miracles of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to those who simply do not want to believe.

According to you, both Muhammad and the Quran are liars! Muhammad never acknowledged any “miracle” other than the Quran and, and the Quran states that Muhammad was only a “warner”!

We don’t believe because the fruits of Islam and Muhammad are rotten!

Vickie

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

…
On more than one occasion when people were in dire need of water, the blessing of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) saved them. In the sixth year after the he migrated from Mecca to Medina, Muhammad went to Mecca for pilgrimage. In the long journey through the desert, people ran out of all water, only the Prophet was left with a vessel with which he performed ablution for prayers. He put his hand in vessel, water began flowing from between his fingers. Jabir bin Abdullah, who witnessed the miracle, says of the fifteen hundred men, ‘We drank it and made ablution.’ This miracle has been transmitted with an unbroken chain of reliable scholars (hadith mutawatir).

The sprouting of water from human fingers is similar to Prophet Moses’ (pbuh) miracle of producing water from a rock.

Question is – Would non-Muslims believe the veracity of this miracle more than they would the Qur’an?

If not, then this just shows the futility of showing these other miracles of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to those who simply do not want to believe.

God gave Cain a “protection” so that other’s would not kill him.

Not every person who wars against a Christian is killed, while God doesn’t save from being chopped up all Christians who war against non-Christians.

Those He saves He saves for a reason, and it’s not because they are a Christian or otherwise. They are saved for whatever His purpose is in doing so.

Sometimes He miraculously saves moslems, or the occassional Papuan whose family has never been more than 1250 feet from their sacred tree.

Should I therefore worship the Papuan’s tree?

God is God, and we both believe that. If your source of some particular miracle is simply not of a Godly source, in my opinion, then your miracle may well have happened, but said miracle means nothing more than that of an interesting tale to me.

And I would not expect you to believe in Christian miracles based on our “corrupted” (to you) source material.

 

[Joyousguard]

“Despite the fact that Mohammed repeatedly claimed in the Quran to be a warner to Arabia, one who did not pertorm miracles and signs, tradition records a number of occasions on which miracles are alleged to have been performed. Let us first look at what the Quran has to say”:

We refrain from sending the signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false." (Sura 17:59).
"The unbelievers say: 'Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord? But thou art truly a warner and to every people a guide (Sura 13:7).

“When there comes to them a sign (from Allah) (i.e. the Quran Sura 2:99, 151, 252) they say: 'We shall not believe until We receive one like those received by Allah’s Apostle! Allah knows best where (and how) to carry out His mission.” (Sura 6:124).

“They say: ‘Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?’ Say: 'Allah hath certainly power to send down a sign. 'But most of them understand not!” (Sura 6:37).

“Say those without knowledge: ‘Why speaketh not Allah unto us? Or why cometh not unto us a sign?’ So said the people before them words of similar import. Their hearts are alike. We have indeed made clear the signs…We have sent thee in truth as a bearer of good tidings and a warner.” (Sura 2:118-119).

answering-islam.org/Nehls/Answer/index.html

Question: Q20. Host: Did Mohammed perform any miracles? (1:18)

Dr. Labib: Well, when the people of Arabia were confronted by Mohammed and this new religion, Islam, they asked him to do a miracle, so they could believe in him. And in the Koran, again and again it says, “I cannot perform any miracle.” So if anyone would say that Mohammed performed any miracle, this is against the Koran. It is very clear in the Koran, that Mohammed said again and again, “I am but a messenger of God. I do no miracle.” That is one thing.And then again, of course, when you come to Moses, when he met the Lord, he said to Him, “I will go to the Jews, to the Israelis, and I will tell them that I met God. They say He didn’t appear to you. What shall I say?” He said, “Well, I’ll give you three miracles, that you may authenticate your prophethood with.” But Mohammed had not one miracle to authenticate his prophethood.

thespiritofislam.com/text/Q20.html

 

[Joyousguard]

Just thought I would share this. I started laughing when I read the first line on the chart given comparing Jesus and Mohammed. The rest are interesting to say the least.

carm.org/islam/Jesus_Muhammad.htm

 

[Booklover]

Just thought I would share this. I started laughing when I read the first line on the chart given comparing Jesus and Mohammed. The rest are interesting to say the least.

carm.org/islam/Jesus_Muhammad.htm

You’re right, it is funny!

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

Just where did you get this information from??

This is ABSOLUTELY not true.

The Qur’an was completed and authenticated by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself shortly before he died and hence it did NOT undergo any process of isnad whatsoever… as opposed to the collection of hadiths which were compiled much later after the Prophet’s death, hence the use of isnad and the ‘Science of Hadith’ as a means of authentication for these ahadith.

The Qur’an we have today is, word for word and syllable for syllable, exactly the same as that which was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) some 1,400 years ago.

If Muhammad was illiterate as Muslims claim, how could he authenticate what he couldn’t read??

Vickie

 

[ralphinal]

There have been some great posts on here. For me, the Moses/Muhammad comparison is the best.

God told Moses, tell them I am sent you.
An angel told Muhammad.

For proof, Moses worked miacles through the power of God that no human had ever worked before.
For proof, Muhammad had a book that said that Muhammad was sent.

God told one and worked his power through him. An angel told the other and his proof was the statement that he was told.

 

[Joyousguard]

There have been some great posts on here. For me, the Moses/Muhammad comparison is the best.

God told Moses, tell them I am sent you.
An angel told Muhammad.

For proof, Moses worked miacles through the power of God that no human had ever worked before.
For proof, Muhammad had a book that said that Muhammad was sent.

God told one and worked his power through him. An angel told the other and his proof was the statement that he was told.

Kinda reminds me of those people who call you up pretending to be from your bank asking you for your account number because there are problems with someone trying to steal money from it.

I ask “How do I know your from my bank?”

They say “If I wasn’t from your bank, how would I know that someone is trying to steal money from your account?”

How do we know Muhhamed was a prophet sent by God> because the miracle of the Quran proves it> How do we know the Quaran is a miracle> because Mohammed said so

The money in your wallet comes from the bank> the money in the bank comes from your wallet> the money in your wallet comes from the bank.

Islam is kinda like Sooby Do chasing his own tail.

Wow this Islam stuff is easy, if you suspend all logic and rational thought.

 

[Booklover]

Kinda reminds me of those people who call you up pretending to be from your bank asking you for your account number because there are problems with someone trying to steal money from it.

I ask “How do I know your from my bank?”

They say “If I wasn’t from your bank, how would I know that someone is trying to steal money from your account?”

How do we know Muhhamed was a prophet sent by God> because the miracle of the Quran proves it> How do we know the Quaran is a miracle> because Mohammed said so

The money in your wallet comes from the bank> the money in the bank comes from your wallet> the money in your wallet comes from the bank.

Islam is kinda like Sooby Do chasing his own tail.

Wow this Islam stuff is easy, if you suspend all logic and rational thought.

Vickie

 

[inJESUS]

“Despite the fact that Mohammed repeatedly claimed in the Quran to be a warner to Arabia, one who did not pertorm miracles and signs, tradition records a number of occasions on which miracles are alleged to have been performed. Let us first look at what the Quran has to say”:

indeed. The Quran reports the miracles of Jesus and Moses but NOTHING related to Muhammad except the book he himself uttered. This shows that the hadith written later, with all their isnad, are mere fabrications. Fabrications transferred through isnad

Whereas our dear friend can read all the church fathers starting the apostolic ones (the apostles’ disciples) since the first century, no one ever denied the crucifixion for example …yet, with all the isnad about the crucifixion, he will reject it …why? because he cares not about isnad or history…but about one testimony by one man who claimed to talk to an angel that no one heard or saw opposing all previous prophets and claiming the word of God, the Almighty, the Most powerful , was corrupt by mere humans, in different countries, in the same way, in the same time.

 

[Special_Ed]

I’m pleased to hear that some of you find this line amusing.

This is the best article I’ve found on this subject and something every christian and muslim should read.

It’s clear that few on this thread have even a clue about the prophet like unto Moses. And it’s obvious that very few of you know anything at all about Islam.

This “ludicrous” article has reached many Muslim’s for Christ.

If that’s funny to some of you…let me ask you. Is the following funny too?

SE