The Cardinal who voted yes for the EU Constitution, calls Netherlands pagan

[stumbler]

The Netherlands’ only cardinal, Adrianus Johannes Simonis, is taking part in the 25th Federation of European Carnival Cities International Convention being held in Nadur until Saturday. In an interview with Steve Mallia, he explains why he has voted in favour of the EU Constitution unlike the majority of his countrymen. He also says he was expecting an Italian to be elected Pope and described April’s two-day conclave as “an amazing process”.

What brought you to the Maltese islands?

The 25th anniversary of the foundation of carnival cities, which is a European association. The president is a Dutchman and last year he asked me to come over. I have to deliver a homily about the significance of carnival.

And what for you is the significance of carnival?

It is a Christian feast and in most countries it is celebrated before Lent. And, if it is inspired in a Christian way, it is very important to care for native values.

The Netherlands is viewed as a liberal country…

…very liberal…

…the two islands here are very conservative. Do you think there can be anything in common between the two countries?

I would prefer to say that this country is orthodox as opposed to conservative. That is another appreciation. Let it be orthodox. We have to be orthodox. Liberalism is the end of everything and also the end of many values. If you are orthodox, believing in a Christian way, then you can maintain your real values.

Is it just a perception that The Netherlands is more liberal?

No, it is a liberal country. There are happily still enough orthodox people but they are in a minority.

Is it much more difficult to be a cardinal there than elsewhere?

Oh yes, certainly. A cardinal in the public environment doesn’t mean anything in our country. You are considered like a kind of administrator. And here you are considered as an esteemed person.

What are the biggest challenges you have to overcome in a culture like that?

To use the words of the new Pope, Benedict XVI, we try to be the “salt of the earth”; to be real Christians in a pagan society. And I think that is very evangelical.

Do you think society has become totally pagan?

I find our country pagan…

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Full article

 

[Franze]

The Netherlands is very pagan and all western, Europe, Canada, US and other countries, all are pagan.

 

[Hildebrand]

The Netherlands’ only cardinal, Adrianus Johannes Simonis, is taking part in the 25th Federation of European Carnival Cities International Convention being held in Nadur until Saturday. In an interview with Steve Mallia, he explains why he has voted in favour of the EU Constitution unlike the majority of his countrymen. He also says he was expecting an Italian to be elected Pope and described April’s two-day conclave as “an amazing process”.

From my own poor analysis of the EU voting, I have come to the conclusion that the EU constitution represents a shift to a more conservative/traditional society in nations like France and the Netherlands. This may be why many faithful Catholics from Western Europe have been voting for the EU constitution. And the concept of a united Europe was a thoroughly Catholic concept, which leaders like Konrad Adenauer (a devout Catholic) embraced and advanced. The secularists are trying to hijack it and wish to use it as a tool of corporate globalization and secular humanism.

Anyone from Europe wish to comment? I’d like to hear the views of our Catholic brethren from the other side of the Atlantic on the EU/EU consititution and what it means for them.

 

[Franze]

Hildebrand:

From my own poor analysis of the EU voting, I have come to the conclusion that the EU constitution represents a shift to a more conservative/traditional society in nations like France and the Netherlands. This may be why many faithful Catholics from Western Europe have been voting for the EU constitution. And the concept of a united Europe was a thoroughly Catholic concept, which leaders like Konrad Adenauer (a devout Catholic) embraced and advanced. The secularists are trying to hijack it and wish to use it as a tool of corporate globalization and secular humanism.

Anyone from Europe wish to comment? I’d like to hear the views of our Catholic brethren from the other side of the Atlantic on the EU/EU consititution and what it means for them.

I voted no. It´s a very bad constitutution, very long and very little useful.

 

[Les_Richardson]

Franze:

The Netherlands is very pagan and all western, Europe, Canada, US and other countries, all are pagan.

As a Canadian I would have to agree with you about Canada. There is still a veneer of Christian observance, and yes there are pockets of much deeper faith, and many serious, committed Christians, Catholic and otherwise across the country. But where it counts, in the laws and policies of government and the so-called “community standards” the country is pagan.

The majority are practicing pagans, with a light cloak of Christian respectability. To tell you the truth, it is sometimes a relief to meet a practicing Muslim or Seikh or Bhuddist monk, for they have one thing in common. They place their faith and religious observance very high on their priority list are not ashamed to display that publicly on an everyday basis. I give them my respect for that reason, and I find that, in my experience at least, when I wear the crucifix or any other visible sign of my Catholic faith, I receive respect in return.

Generally from pagans you don’t receive that kind of respect; curiosity occasionally, humour, mockery, disgust, condescension, and once in a while a barely disguised hatred.

 

[Illini]

Franze:

The Netherlands is very pagan and all western, Europe, Canada, US and other countries, all are pagan.

I must disagree with regard to the United States. While we have our fair share of pagans, we have plenty of practicing Christians here, much more than in other developed countries. Especially all over the South and many parts of the Midwest and mountain states.

It’s not just numbers. Christian values, despite harsh criticism from the media, have a prominent place in American society. Moral issues such as abortion that barely appear on the radar screen in Western Europe are front page news here. I’m convinced that President Bush would have lost in a landslide last year if he were pro-abortion.

I constantly read in The Economist about how many Europeans marvel at (and mock) Americans’ continued attachment to the Christian faith.

-Illini

 

[Illini]

And the concept of a united Europe was a thoroughly Catholic concept, which leaders like Konrad Adenauer (a devout Catholic) embraced and advanced.

 Was Adenauer the one who promoted the 12-star symbol of the EC/EU as the "crown of twelve stars" on the Virgin Mary's head in Revelation 12?

-Illini

 

[Franze]

Illini:

I must disagree with regard to the United States. While we have our fair share of pagans, we have plenty of practicing Christians here, much more than in other developed countries. Especially all over the South and many parts of the Midwest and mountain states.

It’s not just numbers. Christian values, despite harsh criticism from the media, have a prominent place in American society. Moral issues such as abortion that barely appear on the radar screen in Western Europe are front page news here. I’m convinced that President Bush would have lost in a landslide last year if he were pro-abortion.

I constantly read in The Economist about how many Europeans marvel at (and mock) Americans’ continued attachment to the Christian faith.

-Illini

Illini, hello, I have made a very strong sentence and must be explained, but it´s true, there are few pagan people, but there are many pagan comportaments in Western, the great numbers of divorces, abortion or in some countries euthanasia. But western is pagan because there aren´t respect for any religion and less for catholicism, in my country Spain, was made a theatre work with a blasphemy name for God, later in a leftist channel, a christ was cooked in a oven, seeing many people. In the first place the judge said that this name of the theatre work was only freedom expression.
Now with the aprobation of the gay marriage in Spain, the goverment has refused the posibility for people to not marry them for conscience. We don´t have this posibility, and the people refuse this, the people is indifferent, too indifferent.

 

[Thea]

Franze:

Illini, hello, I have made a very strong sentence and must be explained, but it´s true, there are few pagan people, but there are many pagan comportaments in Western, the great numbers of divorces, abortion or in some countries euthanasia. But western is pagan because there aren´t respect for any religion and less for catholicism, in my country Spain, was made a theatre work with a blasphemy name for God, later in a leftist channel, a christ was cooked in a oven, seeing many people. In the first place the judge said that this name of the theatre work was only freedom expression.
Now with the aprobation of the gay marriage in Spain, the goverment has refused the posibility for people to not marry them for conscience. We don´t have this posibility, and the people refuse this, the people is indifferent, too indifferent.

Dear Franze
We see a similar situation here in the UK (well, at least England) and I fear our acceptance of anti-Christian propaganda like the Jerry Springer musical is one steep dip on a shallow slope downwards. I wouldn’t put it past anyone in the media here to show what they showed in Spain. My own workplace is pagan but my close colleagues are accepting of me and my faith. Others more distant…not sure. Wouldn’t like to say what would happen if I pushed it too far… They are ultra accepting of course of every single other right under the sun (you name it, we’ve got it).

I would also have voted ‘no’. I doubt that the Dutch fear that the EU constitution would have attacked their rights to ‘gay’ marriage etc would have been realised. Maybe on the surface, at the beginning…but long term? Hmmmmm.

 

[Franze]

Thea:

Dear Franze
We see a similar situation here in the UK (well, at least England) and I fear our acceptance of anti-Christian propaganda like the Jerry Springer musical is one steep dip on a shallow slope downwards. I wouldn’t put it past anyone in the media here to show what they showed in Spain. My own workplace is pagan but my close colleagues are accepting of me and my faith. Others more distant…not sure. Wouldn’t like to say what would happen if I pushed it too far… They are ultra accepting of course of every single other right under the sun (you name it, we’ve got it).

I would also have voted ‘no’. I doubt that the Dutch fear that the EU constitution would have attacked their rights to ‘gay’ marriage etc would have been realised. Maybe on the surface, at the beginning…but long term? Hmmmmm.

Thank very much, we will have to pray very much for Western.

 

[Hildebrand]

Franze:

I voted no. It´s a very bad constitution, very long and very little useful.

The strange part in trying to figure out whether to vote for it or not is it has some socialist-leaning policies and some capitalist leaning policies. So this document can and has ticked off both the left and the right.

Combine that with devout Christians who are not adamant nationalists and who are more willing to consider a united Europe than most groups, but the secularists did their best (not deliberately though) to alienate these voters by rejecting what John Paul the Great called for.

IMHO, the biggest obstacle to the constitution being ratified is over economic issues. Practicing Christians are on the endangered species list in some parts of Europe. Maybe not that bad, but you get the idea and they alone could not defeat this themselves.

I am shocked at the size of it. In the states, our constitution is a tiny compared to the War & Peace size of the European constitution.

 

[Lisa_N]

I think secular is a more appropriate term for western Europe and Canada. Pagan denotes a religions, albeit a false one. There is a reference to ‘the other’ in pagan world. For secularists humans and their desires are the gods that are worshipped.

Lisa N

 

[Les_Richardson]

Lisa N:

I think secular is a more appropriate term for western Europe and Canada. Pagan denotes a religions, albeit a false one. There is a reference to ‘the other’ in pagan world. For secularists humans and their desires are the gods that are worshipped.

Lisa N

(Your Location notation reminded me of a saying from a local sportscaster; “Were “ifs” and “buts” candies and nuts, we’d all have a very merry Christmas!”)

Seriously, you are right. Secular, secular humanist, and pagan are not interchangeable terms, although I tend to interchange them sometimes.

In the case of Canada, I suppose that what we would call formal paganism, ie. Wicca, Druidism, and so forth, are not huge in terms of adherents. But we do have native-Canadian shamanism which is having its own renaissance.
But what we might call “small-p” paganism is quite prevalent, if considered in a certain way. Take for example the radical enviromentalists. In a very real sense they, although perhaps not formally, pay homage to Gaia in everything they do. Philosophically, there is the train of thought, common amongst them, that mother earth is more important than humanity. Some go even further to suggest the earth would be better off without us. While this might be ignored as wacko-ism its influence reaches to the highest levels of government and into the depths of popular culture. If you listen for the “givens” in pop-culture talk radio for instance, you will hear all of the dogmas of the enviromentalists expressed routinely. The issue is never “are they right?” but only “what is the best way to implement?” So whether it is concious or not, there is massive adherence to at least parts of the pagan dogma.
Secularism, to my way of thinking, tends to be the more scientific, rational side of godlessness. But even it cannot escape the injection of emotion that leads to the religion of science worship. This, you might say is a branch of secular humanism, which in essence believes that mankind has the ability within himself to rise to the level of a god, or gods, using his intellect, ingenuity and technical knowledge. It can be a blind faith, and it is very common, even among Christians, although they may not realize it. “They” will figure it out, “they” will fix it, “they” will find a cure, what will “they” come up with next?

Who are “they”? They are the priests of science, untouchable, unaccountable, not to be questioned, enjoying infallibility in all things scientific. In a sense, this is a paganism as well, at a highly technically advanced level, but similar to Druidism, in that a few “wise” men pull all the strings.

 

[Fitz]

Lisa N:

I think secular is a more appropriate term for western Europe and Canada. Pagan denotes a religions, albeit a false one. There is a reference to ‘the other’ in pagan world. For secularists humans and their desires are the gods that are worshipped.

Lisa N

I think you are right. However, it seems that secularists worship money and that is why I think that I interchange the words at times. However, secularist don’t have an actual place of worship for money so I know I am wrong to think pagan.