The Case Against Contraception

  • Thread starter Thread starter sw85
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I’m really trying to figure this out. So bear with me. I am against contraception. I am not sure if I am for or against NFP. I’m trying to figure out the true meaning of human sexuality. Now what about this idea: “If you don’t want kids, don’t have an orgasm.”

That seems totally silly, but it just seems important. We don’t ever talk about the orgasm in Catholic circles, do we. If we want to talk about the purpose of sex, we have to talk about what the purpose of the orgasm is. It has a function in that it is the means by which the male seed meets the female egg and they fertilize to create a new human being. You don’t need to have an orgasm for a married man and woman to be united.

Ok, I don’t want to talk about this too long. Honestly, my head is spinning right now trying to figure this out.

Joshua
Well actually in marriage sexual intimacy is often extremely important and going without for long periods of time is often a very harmful thing. Of course one could argue that one can have sexual intimacy without orgasm but at the same time doing so could lead to a lot of frustration if you know what I mean! And actually now that I think about it I think I read that chemcials are released in the brain during orgasm that help with bonding. So the purpose of orgasm is more then just procreation at least in humans.
 
Yeah like I said before how natural modern NFP really is is rather debatable.
It will help if you read the OP. Here is a condensed version of it (bolds and [brackets] by me). I only quoted the initial points, but I highly recommend you read the original in its entirety.

And while you can still debate whether NFP is really “natural” or not (in a separate thread so as to avoid derailing this one), per the purpose of this thread, can you please expound on your position that contraception is not contrary to natural law? I’m very much interested in seeing this explained.
  1. Everything in nature can be said to have a “form” or “essence” which it “instantiates” or “participates in.” …
  2. Because not all instances of a thing instantiate its essence equally well, there necessarily exist gradations of goodness in nature…
  3. Distinctly related to the idea of essence is the idea of telos, the end which a thing serves. Many things in nature naturally act toward an end; pens are meant for writing, chairs for sitting, eyeballs for seeing, etc…[the marital act for procreation]
  4. These principles, applied to human behavior, furnish a basis for moral judgments.
  5. For instance, the various faculties which a person has are possessed of varying telos’. If the goodness of a thing consists in the degree to which it instantiates its essence, and if essence necessarily informs telos, then goodness necessarily means using one’s faculties in a manner consistent with their respective ends, and sin or disorder in using them in some contrary manner…
  6. The human sexual faculty points toward the end of procreation; we know this because of the distinct sexual configuration of men and women and because conception occurs in principle as a result of sex (in other words, the essence of the sexual faculty points toward the end of procreation). Therefore, goodness consists in using this faculty in a manner consistent with its end (i.e., intravaginal ejaculation) and sin/disorder in using it in a manner contrary to that end.
  7. Because procreation results in pregnancy, and because pregnant women are generally vulnerable and in need of care and support, and because newborn children are likewise in need of care, support, and proper instruction during the formative years of their lives, the sexual act entails a degree of continuing commitment (and therefore also a unitive aspect to sex) that gives rise to the institution of marriage.
  8. This principle pays no regard to the outcome of the act: it is merely considered with the proper use or ordering of our faculties. Thus chronically infertile couples can marry, provided they can complete the sexual act in a manner consistent with its end; but same-sex couples may not, because they cannot. Likewise, it remains licit to have sex during (even exclusively during) natural periods of infertility, provided the sex act is completed in a manner consistent with its end.
  9. Contraception is naturally contrary to the end of procreation, hence why it is called contraception; therefore, it is illicit. So is any sexual act which is, on principle, incapable of procreation, including masturbation, homosexuality, bestiality, etc. Polygamy violates this principle because it violates the commitment which the sexual act naturally demands of couples.
 
Does a man really have to have an orgasm whenever he has sex. I mean, haven’t woman been going for a long time in the history of mankind with some of them never having an orgasm no matter how much sex they have? Why are men so selfish? Why don’t you focus on giving the woman all the orgasms and keep your load in until you want to have a kid. It would probably be more enjoyable that way. Usually, once you have an orgasm it’s like “Damn, it’s over now.”

That’s what I think abou this whole thing. NFP should be about having some self-control until you want to have the kid.
Well as I understand it the Church rules basically say that the man has to orgasm inside the woman in each act. So it would actually be against the rules for the man to just give the woman a bunch of orgasms. As for woman not having orgasms throughout history…well to be fair we can;t be sure how common that really was. I think other then the fact that woman throughout much of history were seen as lesser then men lack of knowledge was also a big culprit here. I mean many women can;t orgasm from normal intercourse alone so I am guessing that many people just thought that woman couldn;t orgasm period and why bother trying to give a woman an orgasm if you believe she can;t have one?
 
I appreciate the thought, and it is very normal for forum members here to assume I don’t understand sex and marriage if I haven’t been able to grasp the concept of contraception.

The truth is I am very well versed on the whole thing. I own both books written by Mary Beth Bonacci, one of her videos, and have heard her speak twice. I also own “Good News about Sex and Marriage” by Christopher West, and have also heard him speak. I’ve also heard Tim Staple’s speak.

I understand the meaning of human sexuality, and have pretty much heard all arguments out there about contraception. Thank you though.
Just trying to be helpful, a few posts back you seemed not satisfied with the answers you were getting here. By all means, you don’t need to read anything…but reading is helpful to understand Church teaching.

We are Catholic, we are blessed withan awsome amount of writings. Just so you know, Von Hildebrand actually influenced Pope John Paul’s Theology of the Body.
 
It will help if you read the OP. Here is a condensed version of it (bolds and [brackets] by me). I only quoted the initial points, but I highly recommend you read the original in its entirety.

And while you can still debate whether NFP is really “natural” or not (in a separate thread so as to avoid derailing this one), per the purpose of this thread, can you please expound on your position that contraception is not contrary to natural law? I’m very much interested in seeing this explained.
I wasnt saying contraception is natural. I was just basically saying that NFP really isn;t “natural” But like others have pointed out before the naturalness of NFP isn;t what makes it ok. Though at some point in this thread it seems that that argument was brought up. I read the OP several times but to be honest I just donlt understand it at all. It doesn;t seem to really explain why NFP would be ok but condoms not. I mean I just donlt get the difference between saying I want to have sex but no babies and carefuly observing signs and charting and putting on a condom the intention is the exact same in both instances. I mean while I donlt really agree with this position I think things would make more sense if people would just say sex is for babies donlt have it if you donlt want them end of discussion.
 
I wasnt saying contraception is natural. I was just basically saying that NFP really isn;t “natural” But like others have pointed out before the naturalness of NFP isn;t what makes it ok. Though at some point in this thread it seems that that argument was brought up. I read the OP several times but to be honest I just donlt understand it at all. It doesn;t seem to really explain why NFP would be ok but condoms not. I mean I just donlt get the difference between saying I want to have sex but no babies and carefuly observing signs and charting and putting on a condom the intention is the exact same in both instances. I mean while I donlt really agree with this position I think things would make more sense if people would just say sex is for babies donlt have it if you donlt want them end of discussion.
In both cases, when used as birth control, the intention is the same: to avoid children. The methods are different. (Of course you could use NFP to have children and there are other reasons to use the pill.)
 
In both cases, when used as birth control, the intention is the same: to avoid children. The methods are different. (Of course you could use NFP to have children and there are other reasons to use the pill.)
I agree the methods are not the same. I just donlt see the fundamental difference between them especially when both are used to avoid having children. I mean I can see how for instance the pill would be wrong one could argue it violates the though shall not kill command. I have been shown verses that clearly condemn sterilization so thats an out too, but condoms I think is where the grey area is same with NFP.
 
The interpretation of the Old Testament story of Onan is extremely debatable.
No, no it is not.

The intepretation of the story of Onan as condemning contraception, abortion, and masturbation and affirming the fact that life begins at conception is a doctrine of the Holy Catholic Church. This doctrine has been clearly taught over the entirety of the Church’s 2000 year history including by no less than Blessed Pope John Paul II in his series of Wednesday audiences titled Theology of the Body. It was also the the clear teaching of Rabbinnical Judaism for at least 1500 years prior to Christ and the entirety of Protestantism agreed with the Catholic Church until 1930 when the Anglican Church changed its teaching and stated that contraception was no longer a sin under certain circustances.

It is not extremely debatable. It is hardly debatable at all. I have to tell you that my ire is up over this and I am struggling to keep my composure and sense of charity. May God help me.

Those who use contraception and council its use stand in clear disobedience to the teaching of the Holy Catholic Church which has been given authority by Jesus Christ himself to interpret sacred scripture and teach on matters of faith and morals based on that interpretation. And further, ongoing vocal public disobedience to the Church has caused unknown scandal to many who read these forums.

I will go further. Much, much further.

Those who use artificial contraception or council it’s use, and that includes men who get vasectomies, are directly responsible for the scourge of abortion in this world. Artificial contraception has created a society where recreational sex is now a right, the natural consequence of which is abortion on demand, not to mentoin pornography, divorce, disease, prostitution, families without fathers and a whole family and life destroying ills. Anyone who uses artificial contraception, councils its use, or furthers the recreational sex industry by selling or distributing contraceptives has the blood of millions of butchered infants on their hands.

And may God have mercy on us all when his wrath comes.

-Tim-
 
I wasnt saying contraception is natural. I was just basically saying that NFP really isn;t “natural” But like others have pointed out before the naturalness of NFP isn;t what makes it ok. Though at some point in this thread it seems that that argument was brought up. I read the OP several times but to be honest I just donlt understand it at all. It doesn;t seem to really explain why NFP would be ok but condoms not. I mean I just donlt get the difference between saying I want to have sex but no babies and carefuly observing signs and charting and putting on a condom the intention is the exact same in both instances. I mean while I donlt really agree with this position I think things would make more sense if people would just say sex is for babies donlt have it if you donlt want them end of discussion.
The point is that NFP is “natural” when you take “natural” in the sense the Church uses it.

The Church already advances an extremely reductive variant of the argument I outlined in the OP, and it does so (presumably) on the basis that most people are too stupid to grasp its sophistication. The common refrain is that its teaching is irrational, so I posted the OP to point out that its teaching is rooted in a very rational conception of morality. And now evidently it’s being argued against merely on the basis that it’s too complicated (or on a faulty understanding of what the Church means by “nature” which is, for some reason, stubbornly resistant to correction).
I agree the methods are not the same. I just donlt see the fundamental difference between them especially when both are used to avoid having children. I mean I can see how for instance the pill would be wrong one could argue it violates the though shall not kill command. I have been shown verses that clearly condemn sterilization so thats an out too, but condoms I think is where the grey area is same with NFP.
Consult the OP. Sin consists in acting contrary to our natures; the nature of our sexual faculty is procreation; therefore to act sexually in a manner contrary to the end of procreation is a sin.
 
No, no it is not.

The intepretation of the story of Onan as condemning contraception, abortion, and masturbation and affirming the fact that life begins at conception is a doctrine of the Holy Catholic Church. This doctrine has been clearly taught over the entirety of the Church’s 2000 year history including by no less than Blessed Pope John Paul II in his series of Wednesday audiences titled Theology of the Body. It was also the the clear teaching of Rabbinnical Judaism for at least 1500 years prior to Christ and the entirety of Protestantism agreed with the Catholic Church until 1930 when the Anglican Church changed its teaching and stated that contraception was no longer a sin under certain circustances.

It is not extremely debatable. It is hardly debatable at all. I have to tell you that my ire is up over this and I am struggling to keep my composure and sense of charity. May God help me.

Those who use contraception and council its use stand in clear disobedience to the teaching of the Holy Catholic Church which has been given authority by Jesus Christ himself to interpret sacred scripture and teach on matters of faith and morals based on that interpretation. And further, ongoing vocal public disobedience to the Church has caused unknown scandal to many who read these forums.

I will go further. Much, much further.

Those who use artificial contraception or council it’s use, and that includes men who get vasectomies, are directly responsible for the scourge of abortion in this world. Artificial contraception has created a society where recreational sex is now a right, the natural consequence of which is abortion on demand, not to mentoin pornography, divorce, disease, prostitution, families without fathers and a whole family and life destroying ills. Anyone who uses artificial contraception, councils its use, or furthers the recreational sex industry by selling or distributing contraceptives has the blood of millions of butchered infants on their hands.

And may God have mercy on us all when his wrath comes.

-Tim-
:amen:
 
I am not here to argue for/against contraception.

Unfortunately, I got sucked into an argument and it went further than I intended.

The only reason I ever came here really was to point out the inconsistencies and flaws I have seen in the arguments on this thread against contraception.

…I only did this to offer advice - if your goal is to convince people that contraception is wrong, find an argument that at least holds water and doesn’t contradict itself.
 
First off I would point out that the OP’s argument not only shows why contraception is wrong, but also all the other forms of sexual immorality. This reasoning is used for a lot more than showing why contraception is wrong, so please don’t just throw it aside. If anything a person looking at it from the outside should be able to appreciate its ability to explain why God might have a problem with all these other forms of sexual immorality.
 
I admit I’m rather annoyed with the quality of posts by the dissenters here. I had hoped those who openly rebel against Church teachings would have at least something substantive on which to base their rebellion.
“Dissenters”…“Rebellion”…etc.

What a great way to have a discussion. Insult and demean.

With that said:
  1. The human sexual faculty points toward the end of procreation; we know this because of the distinct sexual configuration of men and women and because conception occurs in principle as a result of sex (in other words, the essence of the sexual faculty points toward the end of procreation). Therefore, goodness consists in using this faculty in a manner consistent with its end (i.e., intravaginal ejaculation) and sin/disorder in using it in a manner contrary to that end.
There is an inherent problem with line of thinking. “In a manner consistent with its end” does not equal “intervaginal ejaculation” if the discussion is about procreation. Having intervaginal ejaculation intentionally during the infertile period for the purposes of avoiding having children is clearly disordered if you’re arguing the primary purpose of sex is procreation. Even the Church recognizes this, by placing restriction on NFP, part of which involves having intervaginal ejaculation during the infertile period. Sex during the infertile period by using NFP makes places pleasure above procreation.
  1. Because procreation results in pregnancy, and because pregnant women are generally vulnerable and in need of care and support, and because newborn children are likewise in need of care, support, and proper instruction during the formative years of their lives, the sexual act entails a degree of continuing commitment (and therefore also a unitive aspect to sex) that gives rise to the institution of marriage.
This line of thinking is dismissive of people like myself. The primary purpose of marriage (for those not elderly) is not about having sex and raising children; it is simply about raising children. The focus is always on what people do in their bed, yet it misses the point that not everyone raises their own children…some of us raise other’s children. If one is to focus solely on those children created by their own DNA, then they miss the big picture.

Contraception in this case is irrelevant. Adoptive families are clearly open to life. Abandoned children don’t care if someone was wearing a piece of rubber. In fact, in some cases those might even be happy the did, because otherwise they might be ignored in some orphanage in some atheist country, or worse.
  1. This principle pays no regard to the outcome of the act: it is merely considered with the proper use or ordering of our faculties. Thus chronically infertile couples can marry, provided they can complete the sexual act in a manner consistent with its end; but same-sex couples may not, because they cannot.
Chronically infertile couples are not having procreative sex…period. My wife and I aren’t having any children naturally (because of natural issues), and we have sex for pleasure…period. And we’re having a blast doing so.
Likewise, it remains licit to have sex during (even exclusively during) natural periods of infertility, provided the sex act is completed in a manner consistent with its end.
Time for some more iron head training. Where’s that brick wall???

Conditions are place on having sex during the infertile period for the purposes of having children. Why is the Church constantly ignored by those that support the Church in this manner?
  1. Contraception is naturally contrary to the end of procreation, hence why it is called contraception; therefore, it is illicit.
NFP is therefore illicit.
Polygamy violates this principle because it violates the commitment which the sexual act naturally demands of couples.
Polygamy (and variants) actually occurs in nature, still exists is some primitive societies, and was permitted in the OT. The reason it doesn’t exist in many areas of the world today is by choice.
 
Note that the argument as I presented it is entirely secular; it makes no mention of God.

But let’s for a moment consider the religious aspect. Are we free to flout God’s will any time we wish, simply because He was the power to bring about whatever end His will was intended to?
no but has God ever told you that how many kids you should have or with who? i doubt it, and if he does say go make kids with so and so im prettty sure you would do it. and if you had a feeling that God wanted you to have kids, even if its not him speaking out loud, then you would have kids. but who is to say God does not want you and your wife to have sex periodicaly but doesnot want you to have lots of kids.

you can only flout God’s will if you know his will.

And as far as Gods will all i know that he wants from me is to love everyone, spread his word, and do my best to follow in his steps.
 
One ought to be in possession of the truth if one is to raise a family successfully.

The moral use of ones sexually is one such truth.
One ought to be angry when someone insults their fatherhood and family. Otherwise, they are not fit to raise a family in the first place.
 
I agree the methods are not the same. I just donlt see the fundamental difference between them especially when both are used to avoid having children. I mean I can see how for instance the pill would be wrong one could argue it violates the though shall not kill command. I have been shown verses that clearly condemn sterilization so thats an out too, but condoms I think is where the grey area is same with NFP.
Yes. NFP may be overrused. I thought that the idea was that it could be used only in a really dire situation which would have to be approved by your confessor. As I look around in my neighborhood, i see Muslim families with 6 or 7 children, but most Catholic families at Church have two or three children (Of course there are exceptions).
 
I will go further. Much, much further.

Those who use artificial contraception or council it’s use, and that includes men who get vasectomies, are directly responsible for the scourge of abortion in this world.
You’re kidding…right?

Men with vasectomies don’t have children, so they don’t have children, and thus don’t partake in abortions. That’s like saying people that don’t own guns are responsible for shooting deaths.
Artificial contraception has created a society where recreational sex is now a right, the natural consequence of which is abortion on demand, not to mentoin pornography, divorce, disease, prostitution, families without fathers and a whole family and life destroying ills.
You do realize this is nothing new…correct? These things have existed for as long has man existed as man. The only difference between now and in the past is that technological advances have made certain things easier.
Anyone who uses artificial contraception, councils its use, or furthers the recreational sex industry by selling or distributing contraceptives has the blood of millions of butchered infants on their hands.
People equate contraception with abortion. Well, guess what, they are wrong. Abortion has, and does, exist without contraception. There are many places in the world where access to contraception is limited, but abortion is plentiful. And, even worse, in some of these places, children get left abandoned to die.

There is an evil side to man, and believing that contraception is the cause of these evils is to miss the big picture and to misunderstand the issue.
 
People equate contraception with abortion. Well, guess what, they are wrong. Abortion has, and does, exist without contraception. There are many places in the world where access to contraception is limited, but abortion is plentiful. And, even worse, in some of these places, children get left abandoned to die.

There is an evil side to man, and believing that contraception is the cause of these evils is to miss the big picture and to misunderstand the issue.
Correct.

The Netherlands, for example, is known for it’s wide spread use of condoms and strict practice of “safe sex.”

The Netherlands also has a SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER number of pregnancies out of wedlock, sexually transmitted diseases, and ABORTIONS.

Now, I am in no way condoning the type of behavior that goes on in the Netherlands - the casual sex and distribution of condoms to teenagers in high school.

I only used this FACT to show that contraception is NOT responsible for abortions. Trying to say otherwise is both false and ridiculous.
 
People equate contraception with abortion. Well, guess what, they are wrong. Abortion has, and does, exist without contraception. There are many places in the world where access to contraception is limited, but abortion is plentiful. And, even worse, in some of these places, children get left abandoned to die.
He’s referring to the contraception mentality. If you go to RealCatholicTV.com and watch a video called “Contraception Deception” it will give an excellent explanation and in-depth look at the history and the connection. It’s about an hour long, and worth every minute.

For your convenience:
realcatholictv.com/cia/07contraception/
 
He’s referring to the contraception mentality. If you go to RealCatholicTV.com and watch a video called “Contraception Deception” it will give an excellent explanation and in-depth look at the history and the connection. It’s about an hour long, and worth every minute.
Contraception mentality? You mean, this mentality?:

“I am going to have sex right now, but not to get pregnant. I hope I don’t get pregnant, and have done a lot in my power to ensure this is safe.”

…Probably the same “mentality” used by people who are trying to avoid children by using NFP.

Also, I would like to add on a personal note that there is absolutely NOTHING pro-slaughtering-of-children about me or my mentality. Thank you.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top