The Case Against Contraception

[Nate13]

Contraception mentality? You mean, this mentality?:

“I am going to have sex right now, but not to get pregnant. I hope I don’t get pregnant, and have done a lot in my power to ensure this is safe.”

…Probably the same “mentality” used by people who are trying to avoid children by using NFP.

Also, I would like to add on a personal note that there is absolutely NOTHING pro-slaughtering-of-children about me or my mentality. Thank you.

“safe”…what a misnomer. We can only be safe if we cover up our fertility When you name it “safe sex” its no wonder kids go off and have sex in junior high and high school. They were just told it was safe… Also blame the Supreme Court for connecting contraception and abortion. The only reason abortion is still around is because we allow contraception. There ruling didn’t even consider whether the child was a human being and had rights. It was simply put that if we had contraception, it was necessary to have abortions for when contraception fails. When contraception fails something went wrong. When NFP fails that just means something went right.

 

[Warrior1979]

He’s referring to the contraception mentality. If you go to RealCatholicTV.com and watch a video called “Contraception Deception” it will give an excellent explanation and in-depth look at the history and the connection. It’s about an hour long, and worth every minute.

For your convenience:
realcatholictv.com/cia/07contraception/

I haven’t watched it simply because I’m at work.

With that said, one of my “problems” is that I don’t limit my examination of an issue to a specific viewpoint of a specific religious group. That would be not seeing the forest through the trees. The problems exist with or without contraception. Examples:

• Parents (who don’t use contraception) in India and China abandoning disabled children to die.
• Parents (who don’t use contraception) in India and China abandoning girls for various reasons.
• Various primitive cultures (who wouldn’t have an idea of contraception is if it hit them in the side of the head) killing the child and mother because it is obvious the mother had sex with someone outside the tribe.

I can go on if you like. The “Culture of Death” exists because of evil men can do, not because of a piece of rubber placed on the family jewels that prevents children in the first place.

 

[Debora123]

“safe”…what a misnomer. We can only be safe if we cover up our fertility When you name it “safe sex” its no wonder kids go off and have sex in junior high and high school.

Hmm, interesting.

This is actually pretty funny, because the NFP class I went to, the instructor referred to the infertile days as the “safe days.”

The only reason abortion is still around is because we allow contraception. There ruling didn’t even consider whether the child was a human being and had rights.

Wow, completely false. And I have already addressed this on a couple posts back.

When contraception fails something went wrong. When NFP fails that just means something went right.

Uhh, no, when NFP fails the couple has to do research and figure what what it was that THEY did wrong, and take more precautions to make sure it doesn’t happen again.

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Really guys, it is saying these types of completely ludicrous things that doesn’t help your case ANY.

I’m just sayin.

 

[Nate13]

Hmm, interesting.

This is actually pretty funny, because the NFP class I went to, the instructor referred to the infertile days as the “safe days.”

Wow, completely false. And I have already addressed this on a couple posts back.

Uhh, no, when NFP fails the couple has to do research and figure what what it was that THEY did wrong, and take more precautions to make sure it doesn’t happen again.

---

Really guys, it is saying these types of completely ludicrous things that doesn’t help your case ANY.

I’m just sayin.

Haha its lower but they still have abortions in the Netherlands correct? 50% of the abortions in the U.S happen because contraceptives fail. The Supreme Court had good cause for their statement. The NFP instructor’s words puts a sour taste in my mouth as well. At least that is not being preached to junior high and high school kids though… In terms of NFP “failing” I believe a good portion of people can look back and see the date when they had sex and they shouldn’t have. They choose to take a risk because they were ok with the consequences. If someone is struggling to use NFP correctly in the first place they shouldn’t be having sex until they get it figured out if a child is going to be that big of a problem.

 

[Warrior1979]

50% of the abortions in the U.S happen because contraceptives fail.

And the other 50% occur when no contraception is involved. That would seem to indicate that there is no link between contraception and abortion. In fact, if no contraception existed, abortions wouldn’t go away (since both abortion and infanticide have existed for millenia), but rather 100% of abortions would be linked to people having sex without contraception.

To clarify my own position, I believe their is a problem with the abortion situation worldwide, but I believe many are focusing energy in the wrong place and as a result not helping the situation.

 

[Calliso]

Correct.

The Netherlands, for example, is known for it’s wide spread use of condoms and strict practice of “safe sex.”

The Netherlands also has a SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER number of pregnancies out of wedlock, sexually transmitted diseases, and ABORTIONS.

Now, I am in no way condoning the type of behavior that goes on in the Netherlands - the casual sex and distribution of condoms to teenagers in high school.

I only used this FACT to show that contraception is NOT responsible for abortions. Trying to say otherwise is both false and ridiculous.

Yeah I mean cause otherwise you would expect countries like the Netherlands to have a huge problem with abortions and pregnancies out of wedlock and what not. I think education has a big part to do with it as well as support for pregnant women.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I haven’t watched it simply because I’m at work.

With that said, one of my “problems” is that I don’t limit my examination of an issue to a specific viewpoint of a specific religious group. That would be not seeing the forest through the trees. The problems exist with or without contraception. Examples:

• Parents (who don’t use contraception) in India and China abandoning disabled children to die.
• Parents (who don’t use contraception) in India and China abandoning girls for various reasons.
• Various primitive cultures (who wouldn’t have an idea of contraception is if it hit them in the side of the head) killing the child and mother because it is obvious the mother had sex with someone outside the tribe.

I can go on if you like. The “Culture of Death” exists because of evil men can do, not because of a piece of rubber placed on the family jewels that prevents children in the first place.

I think you evoking China as an example of people not contracepting is not correct.

China is the prime example of a society that embraces contraceptive usage. Couples have to contracept, they are only permitted one child if they live in an urban setting , 2 children if they live in country. They kill the girls, through abortion or at times after, because boys are culturally favored. They can only have one child.

All other children need to be avoided by contraception or aborted.

From China Daily:

As a result, China has become the world leader in contraceptive usage. This report found sterilization was the most prevalent method of contraception in China. More than 200,000 people were covered in the survey and results indicated approximately 38.1 percent of women and 7.9 percent of men are sterilized in China.

indexmundi.com/china/contraceptive-use-among-currently-married-women-15-49-years-old.html

 

[EternalJade]

I think its ridiculous to imply that abortion is the next logical step after contraception fails. The normal reaction to an “oops” pregnancy is “wow I guess this was REALLY meant to be, since we were using birth control!”

Blame abortion on casual sex if you must blame it on something. Contraception cam make casual sex easier but that by no means makes it automatically evil in itself. Anything can be used wrongly and people have been having abortions all throughout history. Plus, 50% of abortions have nothing to do w/ abc so casual sex can exist independently. Also you can blame the attitude about abortion in this society on the liberal agenda. “this is my body and I’m selfish so the life I’m carrying is insignificant and I can do what I want”. These people have reduced pregnancy to an inconvenience and have done their best to remove all human element. It’s no longer a baby it’s a “choice”. (disgusting, yes)

Honestly from reading these forums I’ve never seen people more in dread of pregnancy than many of the NFP users. To them having sex with their spouse is akin to playing Russian roulette, so please stop pretending that nfp’ers don’t have a contraceptive mentality. I’m sure that some truly don’t, but by the same token not every contraception user is in dread of pregnancy. From what I discern from reading these debates, the only difference is the abstinence or “self control” with NFP. But not everyone puts their values there and most couples are not having sex more days than they are, naturally, so it’s not particularly important or thought of as virtuous to abstain out of dread of pregnancy to most people.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Haha its lower but they still have abortions in the Netherlands correct? 50% of the abortions in the U.S happen because contraceptives fail. The Supreme Court had good cause for their statement. The NFP instructor’s words puts a sour taste in my mouth as well. At least that is not being preached to junior high and high school kids though… In terms of NFP “failing” I believe a good portion of people can look back and see the date when they had sex and they shouldn’t have. They choose to take a risk because they were ok with the consequences. If someone is struggling to use NFP correctly in the first place they shouldn’t be having sex until they get it figured out if a child is going to be that big of a problem.

54%

Fifty-four percent of women who have abortions had used a contraceptive method (usually the condom or the pill) during the month they became pregnant. Among those women, 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users report having used their method inconsistently, while 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users report correct use.[8]

Are married Catholics who practice NFP having abortions at this rate?

 

[ahs]

Contraception mentality? You mean, this mentality?:

“I am going to have sex right now, but not to get pregnant. I hope I don’t get pregnant, and have done a lot in my power to ensure this is safe.”

…Probably the same “mentality” used by people who are trying to avoid children by using NFP.

Also, I would like to add on a personal note that there is absolutely NOTHING pro-slaughtering-of-children about me or my mentality. Thank you.

I mean the metality that tricks us to think we can use sex for pleasure while removing the procreative nature of the act. It takes the natural purpose of sex away and has a tendancy to lead people to seek sex only for pleasure. The sex act becomes distorted, and there becomes a way of thinking that the procreative nature of sex, the life-giving aspect, is only of secondary importance. This leads eventually to the idea that the life that results from the sex act, if that life is not wanted, isn’t as important…and so on. It also leads to the idea that all people have a right to have sex because al people have a right to pleasure (where homosexuality and extra-marital sex start to take a stronghold).

I admit I don’t do much justice to explaining it. That video link I posted explains it very well, and not soley from a Catholic perspective.

And no, not every person who contracepts has a mentality toward abortion. It is through the people as a whole where this mentality comes to have its affect. The trends show this…from the 1930’s when contraception was first allowed in any Christian religion up to today. Again, I do no justice to explaining it, please watch the video and consider that information.

 

[Debora123]

I think its ridiculous to imply that abortion is the next logical step after contraception fails. The normal reaction to an “oops” pregnancy is “wow I guess this was REALLY meant to be, since we were using birth control!”

Blame abortion on casual sex if you must blame it on something. Contraception cam make casual sex easier but that by no means makes it automatically evil in itself. Anything can be used wrongly and people have been having abortions all throughout history. Plus, 50% of abortions have nothing to do w/ abc so casual sex can exist independently. Also you can blame the attitude about abortion in this society on the liberal agenda. “this is my body and I’m selfish so the life I’m carrying is insignificant and I can do what I want”. These people have reduced pregnancy to an inconvenience and have done their best to remove all human element. It’s no longer a baby it’s a “choice”. (disgusting, yes)

Honestly from reading these forums I’ve never seen people more in dread of pregnancy than many of the NFP users. To them having sex with their spouse is akin to playing Russian roulette, so please stop pretending that nfp’ers don’t have a contraceptive mentality. I’m sure that some truly don’t, but by the same token not every contraception user is in dread of pregnancy. From what I discern from reading these debates, the only difference is the abstinence or “self control” with NFP. But not everyone puts their values there and most couples are not having sex more days than they are, naturally, so it’s not particularly important or thought of as virtuous to abstain out of dread of pregnancy to most people.

 

[ahs]

I haven’t watched it simply because I’m at work.

With that said, one of my “problems” is that I don’t limit my examination of an issue to a specific viewpoint of a specific religious group…

Right, perhaps when you are able, then. That particular video-talk, while given by a Catholic, is not soley from the Catholic perspective. I don’t expect it to suddenly make you see the light or convert you to Catholicism, but it will shed a great deal of light on what is meant by the contraception mentality and what the correlation is between contraception and abortion and homosexuality, etc…

 

[Nate13]

Fifty-four percent of women who have abortions had used a contraceptive method (usually the condom or the pill) during the month they became pregnant. Among those women, 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users report having used their method inconsistently, while 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users report correct use.[8]

Yes but 80% supposedly were very experienced with using contraception. The fact is we are human and we screw up. Its like assuming there should never be any driving accidents because no one ever gets distracted while driving. Supposedly stats now say somewhere around 60% of Catholics are against abortions so I would assume the rate of abortions among Catholics is much lower. Also, I believe there are some Catholics who call themselves pro-choice, but would never have an abortion themselves. If anything it looks like the message about abortion is starting to get through to Catholics which should give us hope regarding the contraception message.

 

[Nate13]

I think its ridiculous to imply that abortion is the next logical step after contraception fails. The normal reaction to an “oops” pregnancy is “wow I guess this was REALLY meant to be, since we were using birth control!”

Blame abortion on casual sex if you must blame it on something. Contraception cam make casual sex easier but that by no means makes it automatically evil in itself. Anything can be used wrongly and people have been having abortions all throughout history. Plus, 50% of abortions have nothing to do w/ abc so casual sex can exist independently. Also you can blame the attitude about abortion in this society on the liberal agenda. “this is my body and I’m selfish so the life I’m carrying is insignificant and I can do what I want” (sounds like similar reasoning to what I hear about contraception. The selfish addition there is not always the case though). These people have reduced pregnancy to an inconvenience and have done their best to remove all human element. (now put “fertility” in place of the word “pregnancy” in this sentence and you got it ) It’s no longer a baby it’s a “choice”. (disgusting, yes)

Honestly from reading these forums I’ve never seen people more in dread of pregnancy than many of the NFP users. To them having sex with their spouse is akin to playing Russian roulette, so please stop pretending that nfp’ers don’t have a contraceptive mentality. I’m sure that some truly don’t, but by the same token not every contraception user is in dread of pregnancy. From what I discern from reading these debates, the only difference is the abstinence or “self control” with NFP. But not everyone puts their values there and most couples are not having sex more days than they are, naturally, so it’s not particularly important or thought of as virtuous to abstain out of dread of pregnancy to most people.

That sounded a lot like some of rhetoric you hear from us regarding contraception sometimes haha. If it is alright for you to talk about abortion supporters like that you can’t blame us talking down to proponents of contraception. Lots of assumption of “selfishness” and overall assumptions of what is going on in peoples mind. Trust me, from experience this will get you into trouble haha. I guess its only alright to talk down to people when you are in the majority?

From your statement my only conclusion can be that its disgusting to consider a baby to be an inconvenience but no problem to consider fertility that caused the baby to be an inconvenience?

 

[EternalJade]

That sounded a lot like some of rhetoric you hear from us regarding contraception sometimes haha. If it is alright for you to talk about abortion supporters like that you can’t blame us talking down to proponents of contraception. Lots of assumption of “selfishness” and overall assumptions of what is going on in peoples mind. Trust me, from experience this will get you into trouble haha. I guess its only alright to talk down to people when you are in the majority?

From your statement my only conclusion can be that its disgusting to consider a baby to be an inconvenience but no problem to consider fertility that caused the baby to be an inconvenience?

The problemwith what you are saying is, there is logically NO difference at all between a couple using NFP and one using a barrier. The intentions and even the mindset are the same. Your rhetoric comes from attributing a simple minded one-size-fits-all negative mindset and motives to abc users that simply isn’t there, it’s pulled out of the air regarding 95%+ married couples. Both barriers and NFP reduce sex down to the unitive/ pleasure aspect. If you chart your mucous etc then time sex for infertility you are kidding yourself if you think your sex has a deeper meaning than anyone elses. I guess I don’t see sex for pleasure as selfish or wrong between a married couple. It’s happening with both methods.

Now, killing an unborn child, is something that is very different I think.

 

[Nate13]

Yeah I mean cause otherwise you would expect countries like the Netherlands to have a huge problem with abortions and pregnancies out of wedlock and what not. I think education has a big part to do with it as well as support for pregnant women.

familylifeculturewatch.com/2009/06/outoutwedlock-births-out-of-control.html

in 1980 the Netherlands had 4% of their births out of wedlock. In 2009 that percentage was at 40% which is in line with is similar to what it was in the U.S. They aren’t doing any better there. The Netherlands also has huge problems with STD’s compared to us despite the “double dutch” method of contraception that is promoted there. It almost seems like a tradeoff between teen pregnancies and more abortions versus STD’s. The number of people with HIV in the Netherlands climbed 22% in one year…

 

[Nate13]

The problemwith what you are saying is, there is logically NO difference at all between a couple using NFP and one using a barrier. The intentions and even the mindset are the same. Your rhetoric comes from attributing a simple minded one-size-fits-all negative mindset and motives to abc users that simply isn’t there, it’s pulled out of the air regarding 95%+ married couples. Both barriers and NFP reduce sex down to the unitive/ pleasure aspect. If you chart your mucous etc then time sex for infertility you are kidding yourself if you think your sex has a deeper meaning than anyone elses. I guess I don’t see sex for pleasure as selfish or wrong between a married couple. It’s happening with both methods.

Now, killing an unborn child, is something that is very different I think.

Is there any difference between a couple who has sex during an infertile time without a condom on and a couple that has sex during an infertile time with a condom on in your eyes? Research shows if you take away the condom you increase the pleasure, partially because a woman’s body takes in the semen and it actually serves to boost her mood. The semen is also used to allow a woman’s body to become accustomed to the man’s DNA and it has been shown that woman who have not been using barrier methods before conceiving have a much lower chance of suffering from preclampsia while pregnant.

 

[EternalJade]

Is there any difference between a couple who has sex during an infertile time without a condom on and a couple that has sex during an infertile time with a condom on in your eyes?

No I see no difference morally. Both are methods being employed to regulate births. Feeling and mood wise, perhaps I agree. Although with a barrier like VCF it doesn’t matter. I don’t see any difference between abstaining or not abstaining when fertile either, although Many times the 2nd couple will have no idea whether they are fertile or not. But if they do, I see no moral dilemma between blocking fertility and quarantining it. Sex was meant for more than making babies, it’s meant just as much if not more so for bonding. Both NFP and abc can be used for the wrong reasons though, that much is true.

 

[Nate13]

No I see no difference morally. Both are methods being employed to regulate births. Feeling and mood wise, perhaps I agree. Although with a barrier like VCF it doesn’t matter. I don’t see any difference between abstaining or not abstaining when fertile either, although Many times the 2nd couple will have no idea whether they are fertile or not. But if they do, I see no moral dilemma between blocking fertility and quarantining it. Sex was meant for more than making babies, it’s meant just as much if not more so for bonding. Both NFP and abc can be used for the wrong reasons though, that much is true.

Haha you just proclaimed the difference though. A couple practicing NFP can never have infertile sex when they are fertile while a couple using contraception can have infertile sex while they are fertile. This is a fundamental difference and the whole point is that we are saying having infertile sex when you are fertile is wrong plain and simple. I mean you can see the contradictory nature of that act just in how you say it.

 

[patrick127]

The problemwith what you are saying is, **there is logically NO difference at all between a couple using NFP and one using a barrier. The intentions and even the mindset are the same. **Your rhetoric comes from attributing a simple minded one-size-fits-all negative mindset and motives to abc users that simply isn’t there, it’s pulled out of the air regarding 95%+ married couples. Both barriers and NFP reduce sex down to the unitive/ pleasure aspect. If you chart your mucous etc then time sex for infertility you are kidding yourself if you think your sex has a deeper meaning than anyone elses. I guess I don’t see sex for pleasure as selfish or wrong between a married couple. It’s happening with both methods.

Now, killing an unborn child, is something that is very different I think.

Logic? Really, one couple chooses to live within the context of the Catholic Church and sacrifices sex during fertile periods…now that can last almost half the month. The other couple goes outside the teachings of the Church and uses the prohibited method of contraception during both fertile periods and unfertile periods.

I see a clear difference in both method and mindset. Results may be the same, but the method and mindset are not and there is the big difference. This is the biggest thing that is always thrown around when we talk about sin…what is in your heart (mindset). I will speak for one who practices NFP with my wife…in our heart (our mindset) is obedience to the church that Christ founded. Our mindset is one of openness to life, but more importantly, an attempt to keep each other in a state of God’s grace. We sacrifice 2 weeks of intimate feelings because of our love for the Church and God. Our mindset includes the fact that our physical relations are a consummation of a sacrament of the Catholic Church and we try live that sacrament accordingly. Matrimony as a sacrament is not like Baptism. Baptism is a one time event, Matrimony as a sacrament is an ongoing sacrament until the death of either husband or wife.