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butasforme
Guest
What did the first Christians, who had the most immediate contact with Christ and his apostles, believe? I think if you truly examine this, you’ll see they held an authentically Catholic perspective.
staycatholic.com/ecf_the_real_presence.htm
staycatholic.com/ecf_the_real_presence.htm
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c659smith
Guest
Are you sure you are not part Hindu? he he he
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I_Luv_Adoration
Guest
I am having a hard time with you thought process. You have read the bible but yet you do not beleive what your read? Your argumetns are weak. Believe what the church teaches hold fast to the traditions. Or should we believe what you believe the bible and your inturpretation of the bible alone. No wonder why we have so many holy references the Koraon,the book of mormon,the book of my own thoughts and feelings. Wake up!!! Remember we walk by faith. Pray that God showes you His presence in the holy Eucharist. Will be sure to pray for you. One God,one narrow path. Not all differrent types of paths.Your second paragraph seems to contradict your first paragraph. Oh well!
Besides, making categorical assertions doesn’t really mean anything unless you can back it up with sound arguments.
zerinus
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ctlw83
Guest
Hey all,
I haven’t read all of the posts so, if my reflection has already been answered/argued against I apologize. God put this into my heart while driving home from work tonight.
Ok, in John chapter 6, Christ introduces the concept of us needing to eat His body and drink His blood to receive eternal life. Well, one might argue that this is symbolism but, this is not what the context of the Bible would show.
Christ repeated himself 3 times saying that the people had to eat His Flesh and drink His Blood, and according to what I have heard, in the Greek the text shows that he not only says to “eat” but also “munch or gnaw” on His flesh.
The Jews and even Christ’s closest disciples could not accept this. After all, how could Christ give them His flesh to eat? So what happens? They all walk away. THOUSANDS of people, who came for more bread and fish, walked away.
Now, Christ, being God, is bound to tell the truth, so can cannot mis-lead people. So, why would he not correct them? I’m sure if he meant it symbolically, he could have easily said that he just meant them to repeat some words that he was to say before he died and then eat bread and drink grapejuice, but, this is NOT what he did.
Instead, he turns to his Apostles and asks them if they are going to leave as well.
OK, so from the text it is CLEAR that this is not symbolism.
Given, Christ does give His Body and Blood on the cross and dies for our sins. However, this forgiveness does not complete what he says in John 6. Our sins being forgiven by His death and resurrection is NOT the same as eating His Body and drinking His Blood, is it?
So if Christ is God, and God can’t lie, how is it that what he said in John 6 is fulfilled EXCEPT through the Eucharist?
I must also add as a side note, that the Passover Lamb, while symbolic of Christs sacrifice centuries later, was not entirely symbolic either. The Jews were instructed by God through Moses to sacrifice an unblemished lamb, smear the blood on their doorposts and to eat of its flesh. Now if the sacrifice and the blood alone were enough, then why would Moses command them to eat the flesh? It is because God’s plague would have killed their firstborn sons, daughters and livestock as well, if they did not do everything as commanded.
John the baptist refers to Christ as the Lamb of God, who is to be sacrificed for the sins of the world. However, if only His Blood and Death were required for our salvation, why would He state that we need to eat His flesh?
So again, Passover being a pre-figurement of Christ’s sacrifice, and Christ himself stating that we must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood for us to have eternal life must not be coincidental. Again, how is God’s word for us to Eat and Drink His Flesh and Blood fulfilled? If God can’t lie, and the context of John 6 shows that he was NOT speaking symbolically, how is God’s word fulfilled other than by the Eucharist that He gave us?
I haven’t read all of the posts so, if my reflection has already been answered/argued against I apologize. God put this into my heart while driving home from work tonight.
Ok, in John chapter 6, Christ introduces the concept of us needing to eat His body and drink His blood to receive eternal life. Well, one might argue that this is symbolism but, this is not what the context of the Bible would show.
Christ repeated himself 3 times saying that the people had to eat His Flesh and drink His Blood, and according to what I have heard, in the Greek the text shows that he not only says to “eat” but also “munch or gnaw” on His flesh.
The Jews and even Christ’s closest disciples could not accept this. After all, how could Christ give them His flesh to eat? So what happens? They all walk away. THOUSANDS of people, who came for more bread and fish, walked away.
Now, Christ, being God, is bound to tell the truth, so can cannot mis-lead people. So, why would he not correct them? I’m sure if he meant it symbolically, he could have easily said that he just meant them to repeat some words that he was to say before he died and then eat bread and drink grapejuice, but, this is NOT what he did.
Instead, he turns to his Apostles and asks them if they are going to leave as well.
OK, so from the text it is CLEAR that this is not symbolism.
Given, Christ does give His Body and Blood on the cross and dies for our sins. However, this forgiveness does not complete what he says in John 6. Our sins being forgiven by His death and resurrection is NOT the same as eating His Body and drinking His Blood, is it?
So if Christ is God, and God can’t lie, how is it that what he said in John 6 is fulfilled EXCEPT through the Eucharist?
I must also add as a side note, that the Passover Lamb, while symbolic of Christs sacrifice centuries later, was not entirely symbolic either. The Jews were instructed by God through Moses to sacrifice an unblemished lamb, smear the blood on their doorposts and to eat of its flesh. Now if the sacrifice and the blood alone were enough, then why would Moses command them to eat the flesh? It is because God’s plague would have killed their firstborn sons, daughters and livestock as well, if they did not do everything as commanded.
John the baptist refers to Christ as the Lamb of God, who is to be sacrificed for the sins of the world. However, if only His Blood and Death were required for our salvation, why would He state that we need to eat His flesh?
So again, Passover being a pre-figurement of Christ’s sacrifice, and Christ himself stating that we must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood for us to have eternal life must not be coincidental. Again, how is God’s word for us to Eat and Drink His Flesh and Blood fulfilled? If God can’t lie, and the context of John 6 shows that he was NOT speaking symbolically, how is God’s word fulfilled other than by the Eucharist that He gave us?
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Tonks40
Guest
Very nicely said!
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AlegreFe
Guest
I can’t believe you just called the words of Jesus Christ “extremely weak and flimsy!”
Jesus DID indeed mean those words literally.
Jesus would not repeat over and over again that we have to eat His flesh and drink His blood if He didn’t mean it literally.Please watch my video; click on the second link in my siggy.
Okay, I will now read some of the posts in here. There is no way that I’m going to get through all of them.
This is my first time seeing this thread and it already has so many pages.
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ctlw83
Guest
I went over my arguments again in brief on my wife and I’s podcast. Just released the episode today. First episode in months but, that is coincidental…
http://www.lifeonfire.org
MP3 Download link: media.libsyn.com/media/lifeonfire/LOF48.mp3
http://www.lifeonfire.org
MP3 Download link: media.libsyn.com/media/lifeonfire/LOF48.mp3
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J_C
Guest
Hi, I just listened to your podcast. hope you don’t mind I skipped ahead to the later part on your arguments for transubstantiation. by the way congratulations on the baby!
good arguments, well done. i hope they will get throguh to our morman friend.
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AlegreFe
Guest
I heard the podcast. I am so sorry about your loss. You endured a lot of suffering already and you both sound so young.
:console: You’re both in my prayers and the baby Aiden Francis too. 
I love your explanation on Jesus being the bread of life. It sounds almost exactly like Donna Cori Gibson in my video!
It’s the second link in my siggy. It’s just so simple an explanation that even a child could understand and believe. And no matter what anyone says, the bread turning into the body & blood of our Lord IS Transubstantiation.
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dsulpizio
Guest
Zerinus:
When Jesus said to the Apostles at the Last Supper:
Take this and eat it…it is my flesh…etc.
The Apostles DID NOT question him…they didn’t say “gosh, this looks like bread to me!”…they just ate and accepted what he said very clearly…you must do the same.
When Jesus said to the Apostles at the Last Supper:
Take this and eat it…it is my flesh…etc.
The Apostles DID NOT question him…they didn’t say “gosh, this looks like bread to me!”…they just ate and accepted what he said very clearly…you must do the same.
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Jerusha
Guest
Z appears to have given up on this thread. In fact, he hasn’t been very active lately. :heaven: :shamrock2:
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zerinus
Guest
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ctlw83
Guest
I don’t believe you addressed my argument. Again, I don’t see how Christ’s words were non-descript or wishy-washy in John 6…Nobody has said anything that is worth responding to.
zerinus
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zerinus
Guest
“Apologizing” is not good enough. When you have read all the posts, including my Blog post, come back to me and I will discuss your questions—if they are not answered already.
zerinus
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Ronald_E
Guest
When I got married at the age of 28 in 1975, I had not attended Mass in 10 years nor received the sacrament of confession. I was married in the Catholic church because my mother-in-law insisted on it. I wanted to have an outdoor wedding with my long hair and long beard flowing in the cool August breeze in Pittsburgh that colored the sky a star trekish red with the waste from the iron furnaces at the steel mills. Bummer, it didn’t happen.
So we had a Mass wedding and I received Communion without a confession and I did not think anything of it, because I did not believe in Jesus at that time. My wife returned to Catholicism 13 years ago after trying many denominations. She stated at the time that she felt like she was home. I continued to do my mindful meditation and become aware of how superficial everybody was and I longed to find someone deep like me. I discovered that relativism applied to spirituality in that the depth of truth I discovered was based on what I believed and how those beliefs supported my identity at the time.
Grace came about 4 years ago and Jesus introduced Himself to me. When our son went to college at that same time I promised my wife that I would take our son’s place with her at Mass. I had not been attending because I believed it was not necessary for me since I did not need the ritual.
When I started attending regularly, I could not go to communion like my wife and the others because I would not disrespect those who believed in Christ’s Presence. Another reason was I was scared. It took seven months for me to go to Confession Easter Vigil of 05. I opened my mouth and I confessed receiving Jesus with mortal sin on my soul and disdaining His Church and holding myself superior to His Church. I could not believe this came out of my mouth. I started to cry out my shame and at the same time the tears contained joy and a relief that could only be described as life saving. I cried again when I received absolution. To hear those words “Your sins are forgiven”, and then to hear them again in Latin confirmed they came from God. Nobody I told this to at my church has received their absolution in Latin. You see I grew up in the Latin Rite.
To me, the only way to know Jesus is Present in the Eucharist is by Grace. I did not ask for this. I do pray everyone receives this Grace. The Mass is no longer ritual for me. The Mass and every word prayed in the Mass has new meaning. At times I will cry at Mass from joy. My wife looked at me one time and asked, “Are you having problems with your hormones?”
God Bless.
So we had a Mass wedding and I received Communion without a confession and I did not think anything of it, because I did not believe in Jesus at that time. My wife returned to Catholicism 13 years ago after trying many denominations. She stated at the time that she felt like she was home. I continued to do my mindful meditation and become aware of how superficial everybody was and I longed to find someone deep like me. I discovered that relativism applied to spirituality in that the depth of truth I discovered was based on what I believed and how those beliefs supported my identity at the time.
Grace came about 4 years ago and Jesus introduced Himself to me. When our son went to college at that same time I promised my wife that I would take our son’s place with her at Mass. I had not been attending because I believed it was not necessary for me since I did not need the ritual.
When I started attending regularly, I could not go to communion like my wife and the others because I would not disrespect those who believed in Christ’s Presence. Another reason was I was scared. It took seven months for me to go to Confession Easter Vigil of 05. I opened my mouth and I confessed receiving Jesus with mortal sin on my soul and disdaining His Church and holding myself superior to His Church. I could not believe this came out of my mouth. I started to cry out my shame and at the same time the tears contained joy and a relief that could only be described as life saving. I cried again when I received absolution. To hear those words “Your sins are forgiven”, and then to hear them again in Latin confirmed they came from God. Nobody I told this to at my church has received their absolution in Latin. You see I grew up in the Latin Rite.
To me, the only way to know Jesus is Present in the Eucharist is by Grace. I did not ask for this. I do pray everyone receives this Grace. The Mass is no longer ritual for me. The Mass and every word prayed in the Mass has new meaning. At times I will cry at Mass from joy. My wife looked at me one time and asked, “Are you having problems with your hormones?”
God Bless.
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Scott36
Guest
Hi ctlw83 and everyone else following this post.
First of all I am Catholic and beleive that Jesus was talking about his real presence in the Eucharist in John 6. I have some reservations though about the strength of the argument that Jesus would have corrected his disciples for taking his words too literally if he was speaking figuratively.
It may seem odd that I would argue against this point as a Catholic but I beleive that we should always be discussing in good faith and courtesy and not just blindly follow the arguments of our fellow Catholics. I’ve heard this argument elsewhere from some very well known very well respected Catholics…and I’m not saying it’s wrong but it seems to me it’s a weak argument.
It seems to me that Jesus was (and still is) one of the most misunderstood people in all of history and it seems also to me from the bible that this was, in a sense, meant to be. Now we know that God, though our Lord and God, Jesus Christ calls all to conversion and salvation but it seems that his message is received well only for those who have been prepared by grace or natural good disposition (which too is a grace I suppose) to hear it and accept it.
Some scripture passages:
Matthew 11:25-26 "At the time Jesus declared, “I thank you Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to infants; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.”
and
Luke 8:9-10
And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant, he said, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God; but for others they are in parables, so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.
…show that Jesus allowed misunderstanding sometimes, it seems to have been his style for whatever good purposes God had in mind.
I think that Jesus could have been clearer in John 6. Yes as a Catholic John 6 helped me to have faith in the Eucahrist, and yes I think he was pretty clear with his language and his repetition but there are plenty of very intelligent people that don’t have the same interpretation of those scriptures. Jesus could have explained it more clearly so as to leave no other possible interpretation. So let us not be too judgemental against our separated brethren (…and I’m not talking about Mormonism here.)
So it seems conceivable that if God was speaking figuratively (and let us be clear again I truly believe he wasn’t, that he was speaking of his Eucharistic presence, I’m not arguing against that in the least) that he would have allowed the misunderstanding (hypothetically speaking).
Scott
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zerinus
Guest
Thank you. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, more popularly known as the Mormons. When I partake of the emblems of the flesh and blood of Christ at the Sacrament Meeting in our Church, I feel the presence of Christ in my life.
zerinus
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J_C
Guest
beautiful testimony, Ronald. Thank you.
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zerinus
Guest
Jesus did correct His disciples for taking His words too literally. It seems that you haven’t read through this thread properly either. Don’t you think it would be a good idea to do so before replying?
zerinus
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