The Case Against Transubstantiation

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Show me one verse in the Bible that teaches supports the Immaculate Conception.

zerinus
Luke 1:28 The Archangel Gabriel’s greeting to Mary: “Hail, full of grace”. No one else in scripture was ever so addressed, especially by Gabriel, Who stands in God’s presence. Full of grace means empty of non-grace. Grace is purity before God. Non-grace is sin. Full of grace = empty of sin. Since Christ was not yet conceived, how could this young girl be “empty of sin” or “full of grace”? The immaculate conception.

z, my defense of Mary is a miracle in your sight, so many doubts did I have upon entering the faith. The Holy Spirit has revealed this truth to me, as to so many others.

Christ’s peace.
 
Very sorry, but Gordon Hinckley is not a world leader, . . .
The question is not who is a “world leader” or not. You thought that the Pope’s reception by President George W. Bush was “awesome;” I think that President Hinckley’s receiving Presidential Medal of Freedom is even more “awesome”! Too bad you don’t like it. Besides, how do you define a “world leader”? Okay, there are more Catholics in the world than Mormons; but Mormon President punches way above his weight. In a survey carried out a couple of years ago, LDS President Hinckley was ranked among the top twenty most admired and respected leaders in America—not far from the Pope. Given that there are many more Catholics in the US than there are Mormons, and most of those who voted for Hinckley were not even Mormons, that tells you something about his stature as a “world leader”.
. . . a successor to Peter, or anything of the like.
No such luck! The Pope I am sure is a good man; but he doesn’t even come close. The Mormon Prophet is the only “successor to Peter” around.
He is an apparently good American and the leader of a pseudo-Christian religious sect.
He is a good American, and the leader of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints—the Restored and only true Church of Christ in the world today.
I’ll shake his hand, but I will not follow him.
You are not privileged to follow him. As the Lord said: “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him” (John 6:44). That is equally true of the Lord’s Prophet.

zerinus
 
Luke 1:28 The Archangel Gabriel’s greeting to Mary: “Hail, full of grace”. No one else in scripture was ever so addressed, especially by Gabriel, Who stands in God’s presence. Full of grace means empty of non-grace. Grace is purity before God. Non-grace is sin. Full of grace = empty of sin.
My Bible reads: “Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women”. I don’t know where you got “grace” from.

zerinus
 
Truth is still the truth, even if no one believes it. A lie is still a lie, even if everyone believes it. (F.S.)
Couldn’t agree more.
The percentage of adherents to any given faith who are active, or orthodox, is in no way a reflection of the truth that the faith teaches.
Couldn’t agree more.
It is reflective of the advances that the evil one has made, espcially since Christ’s body was shattered. It also reflects the amount of work we have to do.
Lots of contradictions I hear. :confused:

zerinus
 
First, Zerinus should change the title from ‘transubstantiation’ to ‘Real Presence.’
zerinus;3521685:
Transubstantiation is not a biblical doctrine.
True, but the Real Presence in the Eucharist is very biblical.
Thank you. Somebody has finally admitted that Transubstantiation is false! Great! Half the battle one! 👍
The Real Presence of Christ, in the Eucharist, is what Zerinus is talking about, not how it happens.
Thank you again. Can you define for me more precisely what the “Real Presence” is; and how and in what manner Christ is “Really Present” in the Sacrament of the Eucharist?

zerinus
 
The question is not who is a “world leader” or not. You thought that the Pope’s reception by President George W. Bush was “awesome;” I think that President Hinckley’s receiving Presidential Medal of Freedom is even more “awesome”! Too bad you don’t like it. Besides, how do you define a “world leader”? Okay, there are more Catholics in the world than Mormons; but Mormon President punches way above his weight. In a survey carried out a couple of years ago, LDS President Hinckley was ranked among the top twenty most admired and respected leaders in America—not far from the Pope. Given that there are many more Catholics in the US than there are Mormons, and most of those who voted for Hinckley were not even Mormons, that tells you something about his stature as a “world leader”.zerinus
A survey of whom? Of people who were paid to vote for Hinckley?
 
My Bible reads: “Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women”. I don’t know where you got “grace” from.

zerinus
The King James Version of the Bible, which is the version used by the Mormons, is a Protestant Bible. It is a version written over a thousand years after the canon was completed. Where that version may translate that passage using the words “highly favoured”, other translations will render it “full of Grace”, and indeed this is the beginning of a rather well known prayer. “Hail Mary, Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee.”

There are other threads on this forum that go into this with much more depth. The phrase “highly favoured” does not begin to express, in English, the meaning of the original Greek word used in this passage, a word that was used only once in all of scripture, so unique was the individual to which it was applied. An analysis of the original Greek supports the “grace filled” explanation that po18guy is referring to. But for a more complete understanding of the word used there, read the thread that analyzes the word. We have a few Greek scholars here.
 
Thank you. Somebody has finally admitted that Transubstantiation is false! Great! Half the battle one! 👍
zerinus, I have to leave quickly so please forgive me for not providing scripture references. As I recall when Jesus gave Peter the Keys, He explained to him that what Peter binds on earth would also be bound in Heaven. When He breathed on the apostles before His Ascension He gave them the Holy Spirit directly with His breath and they were immediately transformed.
With these two events, it appears that what the apostles would establish in the form of structure for and ritual for His Church would also be supported by God. When the Sacrament of Communion is performed with Jesus’ Words it is with God’s authority that the bread and wine are transformed.
With the Sacrament of the Priesthood and the power associated with that Sacrament to serve as a representative of Christ on earth comes the power through God’s Word to participate in the Eucharist and to forgive sins.
The priesthood and its authority is handed down by touch in the Catholic Church which began with Jesus and is independent of any individual man’s belief. This began when Jesus breathed on His Apostles. The Catholic Church traces its beginnings to this event.
More later.

Thank you again. Can you define for me more precisely what the “Real Presence” is; and how and in what manner Christ is “Really Present” in the Sacrament of the Eucharist?

zerinus
 
The question is not who is a “world leader” or not. You thought that the Pope’s reception by President George W. Bush was “awesome;” I think that President Hinckley’s receiving Presidential Medal of Freedom is even more “awesome”! Too bad you don’t like it. Besides, how do you define a “world leader”? Okay, there are more Catholics in the world than Mormons; but Mormon President punches way above his weight. In a survey carried out a couple of years ago, LDS President Hinckley was ranked among the top twenty most admired and respected leaders in America—not far from the Pope. Given that there are many more Catholics in the US than there are Mormons, and most of those who voted for Hinckley were not even Mormons, that tells you something about his stature as a “world leader”.

No such luck! The Pope I am sure is a good man; but he doesn’t even come close. The Mormon Prophet is the only “successor to Peter” around.

He is a good American, and the leader of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints—the Restored and only true Church of Christ in the world today.

You are not privileged to follow him. As the Lord said: “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him” (John 6:44). That is equally true of the Lord’s Prophet.

zerinus
 
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Stephen168:
First, Zerinus should change the title from ‘transubstantiation’ to ‘Real Presence.’
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zerinus:
Thank you. Somebody has finally admitted that Transubstantiation is false! Great! Half the battle one!
No one said it is false, you came to that conclusion yourself. You Zerinus are not in the Bible, does that make you false?
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Stephen168:
The Real Presence of Christ, in the Eucharist, is what Zerinus is talking about, not how it happens.
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zerinus:
Thank you again. Can you define for me more precisely what the “Real Presence” is; and how and in what manner Christ is “Really Present” in the Sacrament of the Eucharist?

zerinus
here
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=231040&page=2

here

forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3555069

here

usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john6.htm

here

Matthew 26:26-28
26
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
27
Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you,
28
for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.


here

Luke 22:19-20
19 Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.”
20
And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.

here

Mark 14:22-24

*22
7 While they were eating, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, and said, “Take it; this is my body.”
23
Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, and they all drank from it.
24
He said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed for many. *
 
Here’s another good one:
At the Last Supper Jesus broke the bread and said “this is my body”. He didn’t say “this is a symbol of my body” or “this is something we’re using instead of my body”. It was the same with the wine. He said “This is my blood”.

And after He gave these blessings He issued a commandment that we do this, and do it often. It wasn’t a suggestion, it was a directive. That is why we have the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ at Mass.

There is no case against Transubstantiation unless, of course either
  1. You’re talking about a DIFFERENT Jesus Christ (which is the case with some ersatz Christians)
    or
  2. You’re asserting that Jesus Christ was not telling the truth when he instituted the Eucharist
and here’s a REALLY good one

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3564021&postcount=435

All from this thread alone.
 
The King James Version of the Bible, which is the version used by the Mormons, is a Protestant Bible. It is a version written over a thousand years after the canon was completed. Where that version may translate that passage using the words “highly favoured”, other translations will render it “full of Grace”, and indeed this is the beginning of a rather well known prayer. “Hail Mary, Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee.”
I don’t know what kind of Bible you are using. According to as many translations of the Bible I could find, all but one (including Catholic ones) translate it “highly favored,” or something equivalent:

Luke 1:28

New International Version (NIV)
The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

New American Standard Bible (NASB)
And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

Amplified Bible (AMP)
And he came to her and said, Hail, O favored one [endued with grace]! The Lord is with you! Blessed (favored of God) are you before all other women! {P.S. Square brackets means words added, not in the original}

New Living Translation (NLT)
Gabriel appeared to her and said, “Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!”

English Standard Version (ESV)
And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!”

Contemporary English Version (CEV)
The angel greeted Mary and said, “You are truly blessed! The Lord is with you.”

New King James Version (NKJV)
And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”

21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
And the angel came in unto her and said, “Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women.”

American Standard Version (ASV)
And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee.

Young’s Literal Translation (YLT)
And the messenger having come in unto her, said, ‘Hail, favoured one, the Lord [is] with thee; blessed [art] thou among women;’

Darby Translation (DARBY)
And the angel came in to her, and said, Hail, [thou] favoured one! the Lord [is] with thee: [blessed art thou amongst women].

New Life Version (NLV)
The angel came to her and said, “You are honored very much. You are a favored woman. The Lord is with you. *You are chosen from among many women.”

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
And [the angel] came to her and said, “Rejoice, favored woman! The Lord is with you.”

New International Reader’s Version (NIRV)
The angel greeted her and said, “The Lord has given you special favor. He is with you.”

Wycliffe New Testament (WYC)
And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.

Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)
The angel went into the house and said to her, ‘Be happy! God has blessed you more than other women. The Lord is with you!’

New International Version - UK (NIVUK)
The angel went to her and said, Greetings, you who are highly favoured! The Lord is with you.

Today’s New International Version (TNIV)
The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

The New Jerusalem Bible
He went in and said to her, ‘Rejoice, you who ***enjoy God’s favor! ***The Lord be with you.’

The last one (New Jerusalem Bible) is a Catholic Bible, and is imprimatured. The only one that renders it “full of grace” is a very old, outdated, unscholarly translation made by Wycliffe, who was considered by the Catholic Church as a heretic whose books were banned, and most of it were destroyed during or after his death. In fact, the Catholics hated him so much that after his death they ordered his bones to be dug up out of his grave and burned!

At the Roman Catholic Council of Constance, which met between 1415 and 1418, John Wycliffe was condemned and his bones were ordered dug up and burned. This is the same Catholic council that burned John Huss and Jerome of Prague. Source.

Are you proud of your Catholic history, by the way?
There are other threads on this forum that go into this with much more depth. The phrase “highly favoured” does not begin to express, in English, the meaning of the original Greek word used in this passage, a word that was used only once in all of scripture, so unique was the individual to which it was applied. An analysis of the original Greek supports the “grace filled” explanation that po18guy is referring to. But for a more complete understanding of the word used there, read the thread that analyzes the word. We have a few Greek scholars here.
I know of no threads. Are to show us some?

zerinus
 
That is a drop in the bucket by comparison.

zerinus
Sienna, Italy – August 17, 1730

Consecrated Hosts remain perfectly preserved for over 250 years. Rigorous scientific experiments have not been able to explain this phenomena.From Eucharistic Miracles by Joan Cruz, 1987, Tan Books and Publishers.
therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html

Physician Tells of Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano - (Zenit)
“Dr. Edoardo Linoli says he held real cardiac tissue in his hands, when some years ago he analyzed the relics of the Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano, Italy.”
zenit.org/article-12933?l=english

BLOOD OF ST. JANUARIUS
Bishop of Beneventum during the early 4th century A.D., Januarius suffered martyrdom near Naples (where he is the patron saint), but two small glass vials supposedly preserve some of the saint’s blood for the faithful to venerate. On Januarius’s feast day, the vials of congealed blood are brought close to relics of the saint’s skull, at which time the blood is said to liquefy. If the congealed blood fails to liquefy or does so very slowly, then everyone knows that hard times are close at hand. Thus, the blood of St. Januarius is thought to have predicted a plague in 1527, a famine in 1569, and the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius in 1944.
trivia-library.com/b/reverend-religious-relics-the-blood-of-st-januarius.htm
 
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