The Case of the Sabbath and Sola Sciptura

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Since Eden man has rejected authority. I wonder how the search for truth is aided by division and disobedience. We do not determine truth, we seek it and subject ourselves to it. Either one Church is true or all are false, as truth is One.
Po,

Now you know I am with you. I do think that some consideration should be given to the paradigm OHCAC…Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic East/West…and then the Roman says…all baptized in the trinitarian formula and “ecclesial communities”…

If we accept that then when one of those ecclesial community guys speaks up should we not take a moment and say "hey…this is one of my distant members…sure there is OHCAC…and then reflect on the paradigm…
 
No argument. Our search for truth, indeed the message of Christ and His Church, in wonded by division. What we do know for certain is the Church Triumphant is truth, unfettered by human sin. Here in the Church Militant, we must continue to strive and seek, work together in prayer and dialogue.

Jon
In the subjection of obedience, otherwise it is all for naught, as I see it.
 
Po,

Now you know I am with you. I do think that some consideration should be given to the paradigm OHCAC…Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic East/West…and then the Roman says…all baptized in the trinitarian formula and “ecclesial communities”…

If we accept that then when one of those ecclesial community guys speaks up should we not take a moment and say "hey…this is one of my distant members…sure there is OHCAC…and then reflect on the paradigm…
Until we achieve unity, which will probably only occur during the parousia, we must listen primarily, and with subjection, to the Church to which we offer our lives. Of course, we invite all, but our efforts pale in comparison to those who seek to remove the stumbling blocks to unity.
 
Until we achieve unity, which will probably only occur during the parousia, we must listen primarily, and with subjection, to the Church to which we offer our lives. **Of course, we invite all, but our efforts pale in comparison to those who seek to remove the stumbling blocks to unity./**QUOTE]

Po,

Hep me…Our efforts pale…they are weak…they are not as great

Hep me…who are those that seek to remove the stumbling blocks for unity?

As I read this…I see that there are those that seek to remove the stumbling blocks to unity…a good thing and that would be part of our pale efforts.

Hep me.
 
Po,

Hep me…Our efforts pale…they are weak…they are not as great

Hep me…who are those that seek to remove the stumbling blocks for unity?

As I read this…I see that there are those that seek to remove the stumbling blocks to unity…a good thing and that would be part of our pale efforts.

Hep me.
My bad! I forget that no one here reads minds! :o I was speaking of the continuous efforts of the Church leadership on behalf of unity. The perpetual dialog and prayer at the highest levels. We at CAF add our part, but we are at the one-on-one level, while the Church seeks Christian unity at the Apostolic level.
 
My bad! I forget that no one here reads minds! :o I was speaking of the continuous efforts of the Church leadership on behalf of unity. The perpetual dialog and prayer at the highest levels. We at CAF add our part, but we are at the one-on-one level, while the Church seeks Christian unity at the Apostolic level.
And of all the communions, it is the Catholic church in communion with the Bishop of Rome, that has worked the hardest to remove stumbling blocks to unity. For this, as a Christian not currently in full communion with the Bishop of Rome, I give thanks and praise to God, and grateful respect and admiration to the popes from John XXIII on who have been instrumental in this effort.

Jon
 
Hi. Many members of my family are SDAs. I thought that I knew what they believe about Christ. Where can I read that they preach a creature Christ? Do you mean the doctrine that some Adventists teach ie Christ and the Archangel Michael are the same?

Annie
SDA’s, at their base DNA are Arian / semi-Arian thus they depart from Scripture & Catholic teaching in their Christology…
…I will try to explain it.

Catholics and most all Christians repeat or accept the Nicene Creed as it clearly states what one believes in…
…Adventists: SDA’s, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christadelphians, World Wide Church of God abhor the creed.
…The primary reason: They believe Christ “was capable of” Mutation to evil.

In Catholic Theology Christ is the Son of God Eternally & because Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever…
…There was absolutely never a chance that Jesus could have screwed up and sinned, lost His salvation, etc.
…In the SDA’s belief rubric Christ was bestowed a “conditional” deity which He was free to keep.
…PROVIDED that He kept towing the line - if Christ didn’t - then the real God would have annihilated Christ eternally.

The SDA’s a ( all other Adventists ) will claim that when the Scripture says Jesus was tempted…
…It has to mean that there was a possibility of failure & that Christ yearned or lusted for evil.
…But that Christ overcame His own evil desires & thus showed us how to do it.
…To Arian, semi-Arian belief if there wasn’t a possibility of Christ loosing His own salvation.
…Salvation becames a farce & Mockery.

To Catholic’s this question is EASY to answer for we can simply say…
…That the Prophets in Scripture said God would come & save & that He WOULDN’T SIN.
…It’s that easy and there are nearly 100 Scriptures that say just that.

As far as Seventh-day Adventist creature Christ quotes they are almost endless and couldn’t be fit in a single post…
…I will put up a few of them so you can see what they are getting at.
…But 1st our Foundation.

Council of Nicaea
But those who say, “There was [a time] when he was not,” and, “Before he was born, he was not,” and “Because he was made from non-existing matter, he is either of another substance or essence,” and those who call “God the Son of God changeable AND mutable,” these the Catholic Church anathematizes (DS, 54).

The above simply systematizes what Sacred Scripture says about Christ so we can back up the above with nearly 100 Scriptures…
…I’m sure it’s more than 100 - it’s just I’ve found at least that many which attest to the Creed.
…Examples:

ZEPH 3:5
The just LORD is in the midst thereof; he will NOT do iniquity

Now, here are some SDA teachings

Ellen White, GCB Dec 1, 1895
Remember that Christ risked all; “tempted like as we are,” he staked EVEN his own eternal existence upon the issue of the conflict. Heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption.

Longacre
IF it were impossible for the Son of God to make a mistake or commit a sin, then His coming into this world and subjecting Himself to temptations were all a farce AND mere mockery. IF it were possible for Him to yield to temptation and fall into sin, then He MUST have risked heaven and His very existence, and EVEN all eternity. That is exactly what the Scriptures AND the Spirit of Prophecy say Christ, the Son of God did do when He came to work out for us a plan of salvation from the curse of sin. IF Christ “risked all,” EVEN His ETERNAL EXISTENCE in heaven, then there was a possibility of His being overcome by sin, and IF overcome by sin, He would have gone into Joseph’s tomb and neither THAT tomb nor any other tomb would EVER have been opened. All would have been lost and HE would have suffered “eternal loss,” the loss of ALL He ever possessed &; His DIVINITY AND His humanity and heaven itself would have been "lost & eternally lost It was possible for one of the God-head to be lost, and eternally lost - and IF that had happened, and it WAS possible to happen, “God, the Father”, would still have remained as the One and only absolute and living God, reigning supreme over all the unfallen worlds, but with all the human race blotted out of existence on this earth.

Ellen White
Though Christ humbled Himself to become man, the Godhead was still His own. His Deity could not be lost WHILE He stood faithful and true to His loyalty

**
Ellen White**
Because of sin, his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen

Ellen White
Could Satan in the least particular have tempted Christ to sin, he would have bruised the Saviour’s head. As it was, he could only touch His heel. Had the head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it came upon Adam. Christ and the church would have been without hope
.” ( Signs of the Times, June 9th 1898, see also Selected Messages Book 1 page 256)

We could go on and on with these but I think that’s enough to demonstrate how the SDA’s view Christ…
…To them Jesus was a creature Christ who had a conditional deity bestowed upon himself in front of the other angels.
…This is in fact what Ellen White said set off Lucifer - as he felt he should have got the deity and not Christ.
 
Thank you Pythons for your post. It gave me more information about this denomination I did not know anything about. I have some relatives who are SDA’s and one of them recently lent me The Great Controversy book. I have not read it, but since I have been doing some research here in CAF about this sect, I don’t think I ever will.

God Bless

MariSan
 
Thank you Pythons for your post. It gave me more information about this denomination I did not know anything about. I have some relatives who are SDA’s and one of them recently lent me The Great Controversy book. I have not read it, but since I have been doing some research here in CAF about this sect, I don’t think I ever will.

God Bless

MariSan
Don’t get me wrong, in any denomination there are some very good people. I know some very kind sincere Mormons, SDA’s and JW’s…
…That said it’s their theology that’s dangerous so try to separate the people from their teachings.

The other odd belief that they have is that they belive the Father, pre Incarnate Christ and Lucifer were all made of “flesh”…
…Thus when the Scripture says God smelled the sacrifice they take that to mean God has nostrils.
…In fact they teach that God the Father has a rectum and all the organs of a perfect man.

Ellen White ( author of the Great Controversy ) was explicit that God the Father is a hominid made of flesh…
…When SDA’s speak of “the personality of God” this is what they mean - that God has a body of flesh with all the organs of a man.
…Ellen White claimed to have seen Lucifer with flesh and claimed an angel told her God also had a body of flesh.

Prior to the Incarnation they believe that Christ also had flesh but that God annihilated Christ’s body so He could incarnate…
…In “our flesh”.
…I know, it’s odd.

They may attempt to deny what I’ve said and all you have to do if ask them if Jesus could have sinned and lost His salvation…
…They will say yes.

If they attempt to deny the Anthropomorphite teaching there is enough in their own archives to crush them with the weight…
…If you ever need any of those simply ask and I can show you where to look them up.
 
Don’t get me wrong, in any denomination there are some very good people. I know some very kind sincere Mormons, SDA’s and JW’s…
…That said it’s their theology that’s dangerous so try to separate the people from their teachings.

The other odd belief that they have is that they belive the Father, pre Incarnate Christ and Lucifer were all made of “flesh”…
…Thus when the Scripture says God smelled the sacrifice they take that to mean God has nostrils.
…In fact they teach that God the Father has a rectum and all the organs of a perfect man.

Ellen White ( author of the Great Controversy ) was explicit that God the Father is a hominid made of flesh…
…When SDA’s speak of “the personality of God” this is what they mean - that God has a body of flesh with all the organs of a man.
…Ellen White claimed to have seen Lucifer with flesh and claimed an angel told her God also had a body of flesh.

Prior to the Incarnation they believe that Christ also had flesh but that God annihilated Christ’s body so He could incarnate…
…In “our flesh”.
…I know, it’s odd.

They may attempt to deny what I’ve said and all you have to do if ask them if Jesus could have sinned and lost His salvation…
…They will say yes.

If they attempt to deny the Anthropomorphite teaching there is enough in their own archives to crush them with the weight…
…If you ever need any of those simply ask and I can show you where to look them up.
Pythons - nice summary. I would add that the Adventists are terrified of the Catholic church because they believe that at the end of time, before Christ comes back, the Catholics will persecute all those who believe in the Saturday Sabbath. Literally, they believe they will become martyrs thanks to the Catholic church. Similar to the Mormons, there is a geographic isolation theme to them, as they frequently, cluster around a number of small towns throughout the US – and they follow a prophet(ess). Interesting faith: follow a Saturday Sabbath, obstain from stimulants, typically no meat and don’t drink including no wine (so Jesus as a faithful Jew didn’t drink wine on at least Passover? where is that in the bible??) – but their doctrine is open to contraception and they will perform abortions in their hospitals. I had a college roommate who was an Adventist and can testify to how nice they can be but their faith is definitely at odds with mainstream Christianity, aspects being cult-like, certainly in following a leader who they believe had heavenly visions including conversations with her dead husband. What does the bible say about contacting the dead? I wonder how their church explains this? This isn’t even sola scriptura…what it is I do not know.
 
My relatives are very nice people, but after learning how anti-catholic this denomitation is I got the chills! I started reading about it and it gets more complicated. Thank you for offering your insight!

God Bless!
MariSan
 
My relatives are very nice people, but after learning how anti-catholic this denomitation is I got the chills! I started reading about it and it gets more complicated. Thank you for offering your insight!

God Bless!
MariSan
MariSan -

There are a couple of Journey Home episodes with Seventh Day converts. This one is excellent with Teresa Beem (so is the other with the professor). I haven’t read it but she did write a book about her experience.

ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?pgnu=7&SeriesID=-6892289
 
My relatives are very nice people, but after learning how anti-catholic this denomitation is I got the chills! I started reading about it and it gets more complicated. Thank you for offering your insight!

God Bless!
MariSan
Here are a few more posts about the SDA’s…
…Porknpie is right - they seem to be obsessed with thinking Catholics are going to kill them.
…For their worship of their God on the Gregorian Saturday.
…Here is some more reading material for ya.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9364041&postcount=33

And there was a rather large discussion about SDA at the following…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=560684&page=7
 
And of all the communions, it is the Catholic church in communion with the Bishop of Rome, that has worked the hardest to remove stumbling blocks to unity. For this, as a Christian not currently in full communion with the Bishop of Rome, I give thanks and praise to God, and grateful respect and admiration to the popes from John XXIII on who have been instrumental in this effort.

Jon
Well, Jon…don’t you think that this effort/s of the Bishop of Rome is being caused by the Holy Spirit…(through the Popes)?
 
Well, Jon…don’t you think that this effort/s of the Bishop of Rome is being caused by the Holy Spirit…(through the Popes)?
Absolutely. I also think the Spirit is working through Lutherans (and others) who have responded over the last 60 years ecumencially.

Jon
 
Here are a few more posts about the SDA’s…
…Porknpie is right - they seem to be obsessed with thinking Catholics are going to kill them.
…For their worship of their God on the Gregorian Saturday.
…Here is some more reading material for ya.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9364041&postcount=33

And there was a rather large discussion about SDA at the following…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=560684&page=7
They are huge on the Book of Daniel, even though the very same bible tells them that no matter of scriptural prophecy is of any private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20). If you read the bio of their foundress, you will find that she received a serious/life threatening head injury and was in a coma for three weeks. Then, she worked in the hat-making business and was exposed to mercury. Only after those two experiences did she begin receiving “visions” which she passed on and which fellow believers accepted as revealed from God.

We are still waiting for their prediction to come true that the Catholic Church will pass an American national law enforcing Sunday worship on them…

So, Ellen, how’s the Catholic Church doing as far as influencing the US government lately?
 
They are huge on the Book of Daniel, even though the very same bible tells them that no matter of scriptural prophecy is of any private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20). If you read the bio of their foundress, you will find that she received a serious/life threatening head injury and was in a coma for three weeks. Then, she worked in the hat-making business and was exposed to mercury. Only after those two experiences did she begin receiving “visions” which she passed on and which fellow believers accepted as revealed from God.

We are still waiting for their prediction to come true that the Catholic Church will pass an American national law enforcing Sunday worship on them…

So, Ellen, how’s the Catholic Church doing as far as influencing the US government lately?
Yes, I’ve read some things about what you mention about the Book of Daniel whereas SDA’s are concerned…
…Ironically it’s the Book of Daniel itself that destroys the SDA prophetic rubric.
…At least that’s how I see it.

The SDA’s claim in 1844 Christ cleansed the temple in heaven - this is after they affirm literally the earthly temple was a copy of the one in heaven…
…They claim that the Temple was in a defiled state from something like 457 B.C. until 1844.
…This odd interpretation of Scripture would then require that everything done in the Temple for Jesus.
…Was actually “defacto”.

Matthew 23,17
Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

Luke 2,27
And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law

John 10,21

And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the** temple **in Solomon’s porch

I have a hard time understanding how the SDA’s justify ANY of the above actually taking place in a defiled Temple?
…It shows how alien this theology really is for sure.

Also their obsession with the Gregorian Calendar and Saturday is very strange…
…But then again any religion that teaches God the Father is a hominid made out of “flesh” is capable of teaching anything.

Like the O.P. says, contrasting the Seventh Day Baptists & the Seventh Day Adventists demonstrates how foolish Sola Scriptura is…
…The Seventh Day Baptists would say the SDA teaching is absolutely heretical.
…Got to admit however the SDA’s corner the market on the razzle dazzle!
…That their religion was in part founded by a guy who called himself **Incarnation of Elijah **says a great deal LOL!
 
Just about the time that my faith came alive, our Chaplain at work was SDA. Needless to say, we had some interesting conversations. We love each other as brothers, but the rest of their faith is so aberrant that there is little to discuss. As well, much of their missionary effort is directed at leading Catholics away from their faith. To that, I pray for their utter failure.
 
Amen po18guy! I’m with ya - the average catholic has no idea how dedicated the average sda is to converting them and unfortunately it’s those Catholics who are so ignorant of their own faith that they don’t see a problem with teachings that claim Jesus is only God because He was able to meet the conditions of keeping the deity the real God loaned to Him.
 
The SDB actually pre-dates the SDA, in a paradoxical turn of events, even if only acronymically (there’s one for ya’) speaking. Both lack the Apostolic Tradition and Magisterium which would clear up their confusion. Both are equally wrong - disagreeing even with each other. So much for bible unity.
Yes, if only we had someone to tell us what to do. What you have here is a matter of opinion on which day to worship on. The day we worship is not a matter of salvation, therefor we are free to worship whatever day we want (ever take communion on a Tuesday?). Let’s look at that Bible us common folk can’t understand. The book of Acts tells us that Jesus ascended on a Thursday, 40 days after His resurrection, and his followers worshiped Him beforehand (Acts 1:3). The early church was at the Temple daily worshiping God and witnessing(Acts 2:46-47). And we learn from Acts 15 that Gentiles are not bound by the law of Moses and only instructed to abstain from sexual immorality, idols, the meat of strangled animals and eating blood, no mention of keeping the Sabbath. Also Paul wrote that people will hold different days as holy (Rom. 14:5) and that was ok. Rather than showing that we need some overarching authority so everyone believes, worships, acts, dresses, sings, and prays the same, Christians worshiping on different days shows the freedom we have in Christ.
 
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