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AbideWithMe
Guest
Never! After I break out of here I’m going to watch a football game (yes, with the right kind of ball–the pointed kind) while eating apple pie which was baked in an aluminum pan.
The Catholic Church and religious coercion- the smoking gun 2
- Status
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bjryman
Guest
EXACTLY…we all need to remember that only DOGMA is considered to be infallible. Other teachings are considered to be correct, and that all Catholics in good standing should follow them.
But they are not neccessarily correct, they are what the current Magisterium wishes we laity to assume as our core beliefs. Even the output of Vatican II had a majority and minority opinion…each aggressively defended on most controversial topics.
Today’s Church is finally assimilating the Vatican II focus of returning to early apostolic Church priorites of teaching…and it will be a painful continuing self evaluation and transition.
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Picky_Picky
Guest
Rugby, eh? Excellent, excellent. We are making progress.
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AbideWithMe
Guest
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Telstar
Guest
From my secret diary, written on mouse skins and hidden behind a stone in the wall of my cell:
Sunday, June 14, 2015-- That nefarious and sly British agent, PP, has been taunting us too long now, flaunting his or her shamelessly s-filled “baptising” (sic) ways in our faces. But I have stood strong. I will not betray Uncle Sam!
Monday, June 15, 2015-- Ack!I am lost in a moment of weakness. Can my country ever forgive me?
i2.photobucket.com/albums/y39/Telstars/Smilies/nun_ruler.gifNo, wait, I mean
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bjryman
Guest
Love the Num emoticon
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Telstar
Guest
I picked it up a few years ago and put it in my photobucket because it made me laugh. I couldn’t resist posting it, here. It seemed one of the few places where it was the perfect choice, especially after all of the talk about Church penalties and punishments in this thread.
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Picky_Picky
Guest
Certainly frightened me!I picked it up a few years ago and put it in my photobucket because it made me laugh. I couldn’t resist posting it, here. It seemed one of the few places where it was the perfect choice, especially after all of the talk about Church penalties and punishments in this thread.
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bjryman
Guest
Yes my knuckles began aching…wonder why?Certainly frightened me!
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AbideWithMe
Guest
My older Catholic friends remember the the legend of the three-fingered nun.
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Telstar
Guest
It certainly does tend to make you sit up and take notice, doesn’t it?Certainly frightened me!
I remember going to a Catholic School for several months when I was in third grade. I noticed there was a particular Nun that all the boys seemed to be a little afraid of, more than the others. She used to walk around with a ruler in her hands, whenever they started getting a little too rowdy. They calmed down real quick whenever she picked it up off her desk! :tsktsk:
My older Catholic friends remember the the legend of the three-fingered nun.
I don’t think I ever heard that one. :ehh:
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benhur
Guest
Sorry T, but your nun picture is inaccurate. The pain inflicted distinctly can not help but to recall that it was not a yardstick, and a yellow one at that , but a long, round, hardwood (oak or maple) pointer with that small black rubber tip at the end. A real knuckle wacker. :tsktsk:
:bighanky:
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bjryman
Guest
Yes, now I remember. Sister Mary Martin Anne, 5th Grade, St Hyacinth’s School, Bay City Michigan, USA…POINTER with the black tip:thumbsup:Sorry T, but your nun picture is inaccurate. The pain inflicted distinctly can not help but to recall that it was not a yardstick, and a yellow one at that , but a long, round, hardwood (oak or maple) pointer with that small black rubber tip at the end. A real knuckle wacker. :tsktsk:
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benhur
Guest
Thanks for the backup ,no Alzheimers. Was it 1964 ?
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ffg
Guest
Hi Benhur,
Sorry it’s been so long.
To say…
“It is wrong to leave a baptized person in the mortal sin (of rejecting baptismal vows) to their free will” …
…is to say God is wrong.
I’m sure you don’t intend this, please correct me where I’m mistaken.
Thanks,
Mike
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ffg
Guest
Hi Picky,
Just getting back to this, sorry for the delay.
I don’t mind playing the various version game, but it is important to remember, however confusing the writing and translations, the canons are responses to heresies in order to ground historical teaching.
Obviously, this has been done many times in the last couple thousand years due to a gift from God, being freedom in thought.
When I read the EWTN version you laid in, I think it aligns with my earlier analysis…
From EWTN: "Canon 14. If anyone says that those who have been thus baptized when children are, when they have grown up, to be questioned whether they will ratify what their sponsors promised in their name when they were baptized, and in case they answer in the negative, are to be left to their own will;
neither are they to be compelled in the meantime to a Christian life by any penalty other than exclusion from the reception of the Eucharist and the other sacraments, until they repent, let him be anathema. "
Obviously the ‘they’ in “neither are they to be compelled…” is relating to the person who does not want to ratify baptism.
The ‘anyone’ then doesn’t force ‘they’ to be what they don’t want to be - Christian.
To be specific then for heretics, the Church had to name the sacraments as no-no’s, so someone wouldn’t think they were good to do sacraments but reject baptism vows.
This would also align to a practicing Catholic who needs to hit the Confessional before Communion for their own sake.
After a bit of this analysis, I’m starting to think the end to each canon is relating specific to a heretic as the object of the session / council itself.
Example -
Open of session / council: ‘The Heretic should know they need to repent’
Canon 1 - end “let him (Heretic) be anathema.”
Canon 2 - end “let him (Heretic) be anathema.”
…
Canon 14 - end “let him (Heretic) be anathema.”
Take care,
Mike
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ffg
Guest
Hi Picky,
How about this - maybe we can agree here?
To whom can we be certain the anathema (excommunication) relates?
A) The heretic(s).
In general with the council, the Church is responding to and laying a ‘state of excommunication’ on ‘the heretic(s)’.
Secondly then, is ‘the heretic’ the ‘anyone’ in Canon 14?
I don’t think so, it seems the heretic(s) are those referenced about rejecting baptism vows. It doesn’t seem ‘they’ are one and the same as the ‘anyone’.
Another test would be to see if the statements or actions are heretical for the ‘anyone’ (the ‘says’).
So - Is this a heretical thing to do - question whether folks will ratify what their sponsors promised in their name when they were baptized.
Considering this is the sacrament of confirmation, I don’t think it’s heretical to ask someone to confirm baptismal vows.
Please someone correct me if I am wrong.
So as I mentioned in my analysis of the first version, I don’t think the anathema is related to the ‘anyone’…
So, ‘If anyone says’ (…a question to other people…)
Then - in case they (other people) answer in the negative, are to be left to their (other people) own will.
That’s the way I’m seeing it.
Take care,
Mike
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Picky_Picky
Guest
Ah, well I fear we disagree. And I think I know why. "I don’t think it’s heretical to ask someone to confirm baptismal vows. " You don’t agree with what (I say) the canon says, and you are seeking a resolution.
I’m afraid you are wrong, Mike. The Trent canons all follow the same pattern. The council determines to anathematise something it thinks is heretical (i.e. the belief “xxx”) and it condemns it it in the form “If anyone says xxx, let him be anathema”. In other cases it determines something dogmatically true (i.e. the belief “yyy”) and it asserts it in the form “If anyone denies yyy, let him be anathema”. Look through the canons. I am absolutely sure you will find that what I say is accurate.
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ffg
Guest
Hi Picky,
It’s pretty difficult to ignore context and understand intent.
In the council, we know:
~The Church is addressing heresies.
~The Church is excommunicating, or confirming excommunication of heretics.
~The Church is making an effort to protect the identity of Christianity as 1 Christian religion, as stated in the opening of the council.
We wouldn’t be talking about Canon on Baptism #14 if it fell in line with the pattern. It would be nice if it was either stated or translated in a fashion more easily understood.
Please explain how the ‘anyone’ is the heretic. This would help in understanding the pattern doesn’t break.
The intent of the Canon is going to fall in line with historical Christianity, that’s the purpose of the council, to protect that 1 identity.
At the end of the day, in 14 - rejecting the Church after Baptism is a sin. That’s the specific point being addressed.
Let’s see what the CCC says about this…
Paragraph 679 second half:
“By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives according to one’s works, and can even condemn oneself for all eternity by rejecting the Spirit of love.”
Code:
Other CCC quotes on rejecting:
386 Sin is present in human history; any attempt to ignore it or to give this dark reality other names would be futile. To try to understand what sin is, one must first recognize the profound relation of man to God, for only in this relationship is the evil of sin unmasked in its true identity as humanity’s rejection of God and opposition to him, even as it continues to weigh heavy on human life and history.
1864 “Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.”136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.
29 But this “intimate and vital bond of man to God” (GS 19,1) can be forgotten, overlooked, or even explicitly rejected by man.3 Such attitudes can have different causes: revolt against evil in the world; religious ignorance or indifference; the cares and riches of this world; the scandal of bad example on the part of believers; currents of thought hostile to religion; finally, that attitude of sinful man which makes him hide from God out of fear and flee his call.
1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.
1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul—a destiny which can be different for some and for others.
2140 Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the first commandment.
2125 second half: “Believers can have more than a little to do with the rise of atheism. To the extent that they are careless about their instruction in the faith, or present its teaching falsely, or even fail in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than to reveal the true nature of God and of religion.”- Status