The Catholic church did not give us the Bible

[jen_fla]

EVERYONE says theirs is the true church. Who doesn’t say that?

but one must be authentic or then they all are false. you can’t say ALL churches are authentic as they teach different things. we can clearly see where the jw’s, mormons, southern baptists and 7th day adventists (to name a few out of thousands of new denominations) disagree on some crucial issues. every new church that broke off from the Catholic Church has to deny, distort, lie and tell half truths about Her otherwise they could not justify their existence. the other thing they often do is point to the sins of Catholic individuals and try to convince the world that it’s a practice the Church actually teaches.

Back in the ancient days, every country thought theirs was the only country in the world. China thought India was heaven!

PLEASE…we all say what we THINK. But if yours is really the true church, don’t worry, on the day of judgement, your true church, which has always been the most populous religion in the world today will flood your heaven. And Jesus’s statement that ‘many will try to go in but will not’ will be put to naught (ie most will go to Hell). Luke 13:24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because I tell you, many will try to enter and won’t be able”

And you will all prove Jesus to be wrong!..HAPPY NOW?..NOW GO CELEBRATE…AND CHEER WHILE YOU STILL CAN, BECAUSE I’M SURE ONCE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH GETS INTO HEAVEN, JESUS WOULD BE AT A LOSS FOR WORDS… WOW!

“I AM THE TRUTH, THE WAY AND THE LIFE, NO MAN GOES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME” - JESUS.

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can’t even respond to this. :hypno:… do you really think we believe all Catholics get an instant pass into heaven and that everyone else goes to hell?

you are really doing yourself a disservice by falling into the whole my team is better than your team routine. no one is lording anything over anyone. what you fail to realize is that the Catholic Church will always be there waiting for you to come home, so to speak. this isn’t about our egos, this is about studying, looking at facts, and praying for the Holy Spirit to Guide you to His Church.

i can understand how when a protestant feels Christ working in his or her life, it has an awesome powerful effect. yes, God works in ALL our lives when we seek, and doors open and we grow. while protestant denominations do indeed open doors for Christians and bring them closer to God (no one is saying they don’t) you still are only getting part of the picture. it’s like your father built and gave you this huge 7 story castle to explore, but because you’re content in the parlor you miss out on the rest.

i don’t mean for that to be offensive, but you simply don’t know what your life is missing until you go to confession and receive the Eucharist.

read the writings of the early Church fathers. i guarantee your faith will undergo a major growth spurt.

peace

 

[jen_fla]

Luke 22: 25 And he (Jesus) said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. 26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

It is very clear from the above that Jesus NEVER intended for His disciples to have a LEADER. HE Himself was to be their master and even He is one who serves…yet the entire catholic system runs counter to his teachings.

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ok, i’ll bite. so what happens when one Christian says you’ll go to hell if you dance and another says you won’t? how bout when one Christian says all you have to do to be saved is recite some sentences (that are not in the Bible) and another says nope. how bout when some Churches say you must confess your sins and other churches say you don’t have to? how bout the one Christian who truly believes the Holy Spirit is talking to him and it is his poor understanding that God hates homosexuals? how bout the Christians that think the Eucharist truly is Christ and the others that say it’s a symbol?

answer: fighting and discord. come on, the Bible is a very difficult read. layers upon layers, do you really think God who ordered everything just so in our universe would leave us in chaos?

and for the record Christ is our master, not the adorable Pope we have. the explanation you were given regarding the function of the prime minister while the king was away explains the analogy perfectly. please go reread that again.

you also might want to do a search on this forum regarding infallibility. i have to laugh (well not really) everytime i hear someone say we worship the Pope and believe he can’t sin. i am glad you are here to at least get the facts straight.

peace.

 

[Javl]

Luke 22: 25 And he (Jesus) said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. 26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

It is very clear from the above that Jesus NEVER intended for His disciples to have a LEADER. HE Himself was to be their master and even He is one who serves…yet the entire catholic system runs counter to his teachings.

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Mosacked, The Catholic system does not run counter to Jesus’ teachings. Please put your glasses on and reread Mt 16:13-19. Jesus put Peter in charge of His Church and gave him His Authority to keep the church together. This Authority was passed down through the years to Peter’s successors. If it were not so, then there would be more of a hodge-podge of churches than there is now with each one going its own way and preaching/teaching what it wanted.

If the states of the U.S. were not united and under one president, then there would probably be 50 independent countries each fighting with each other. You need some sort of central control to keep things together and not falling into total chaos.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[YADA]

Luke 22: 25 And he (Jesus) said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. 26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

It is very clear from the above that Jesus NEVER intended for His disciples to have a LEADER. HE Himself was to be their master and even He is one who serves…yet the entire catholic system runs counter to his teachings.

Yes Jesus did - He placed Peter in charge … in your faith system - you have every Christian be their own pope - the decider of what the Holy Spirit is guiding the Christian too … that leads to a fractured community of believers all following their own path to God - which means of course that they are following themselves and not Jesus …

That is exactly why for some Christians all tha us necessary for salvation is to pray the “Sinner’s prayer” and they are saved no matter what else they believe nor any sins committed after praying that prayer …

Other Christians believe that you must be baptized … others that you can be baptized more then once … others believe that musical instruemnts used in worship is sinful - others not so … Some Christians believe that dancing is from the devil, all consumption of alcohol will lead to damnation …

Others believe that sex outside marriage is okay today … serial monogamy is okay … divorce and re-marriage acceptable … Bible Alone, Faith Alone …

Your path is far far from what Jesus established - One Church, One Faith - Universal - Catholic …

The fruit of Protestantism is evident in the results that followed - division and discord … Evolving “Truth” …

 

[AmericanJosiah]

The fact that the Ten Commandments existed before the CC is irrelevant.

If it’s historically documented that The Catholic Church gave us the Bible, then IT gave us ALL of the Bible. Do you believe The Ten Commandments are biblical?

What’s significant is that it was the CC that told YOU that the Ten Commandments are to be considered inspired.

1. Moot to the issue of this thread. The question is not WHAT told Joe Blow what is and is not “inspired,” the issue is whether it is historically documented that The Catholic Church gave us the Bible - all of it, all the material from Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21. It is an offen made Catholic claim, but I agree with the opening poster - it simply is baseless. And historically impossible.
2. Actually, The Catholic Church didn’t tell ME that. It may have officially acknowledged such in some formal sense - as have virtually all other denominations as well, but that’s entirely moot to the issue of this thread and the question before us.

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[YADA]

If it’s historically documented that The Catholic Church gave us the Bible, then IT gave us ALL of the Bible. Do you believe The Ten Commandments are biblical?

1. Moot to the issue of this thread. The question is not WHAT told Joe Blow what is and is not “inspired,” the issue is whether it is historically documented that The Catholic Church gave us the Bible - all of it, all the material from Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21. It is an offen made Catholic claim, but I agree with the opening poster - it simply is baseless. And historically impossible.
2. Actually, The Catholic Church didn’t tell ME that. It may have officially acknowledged such in some formal sense - as have virtually all other denominations as well, but that’s entirely moot to the issue of this thread and the question before us.

You miss the point … if the catholic Church had not collected, preserved and protected the documents collectd into the “bible” … specifically because they held them to be the inspired word of God - your denomination some 1500 plus years later would not have “The Bible” to also affirm … your view of history begins with your personal ‘view’ and ‘view point’ …

An example of poor scholarship and a lack of education - IMHO

 

[AmericanJosiah]

You miss the point … if the catholic Church had not collected, preserved and protected the documents collectd into the “bible” … specifically because they held them to be the inspired word of God - your denomination some 1500 plus years later would not have “The Bible” to also affirm … your view of history begins with your personal ‘view’ and ‘view point’ …

1. Moot. The issue of this thread is NOT that The Catholic Church kept the Two Tablets safe, it is that IT “gave us” the Bible. From Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21 (not just part of it).
2. Odd how you so dismiss the Jews, the Orthodox from all this. Friend, if the JEWS had not collected and protected and preserved most of the Bible - The Catholic Church would never have heard of it! (Might want to review one of my favorite OT stories, the one about Josiah on that - and note that Josiah was JEWISH - not The Catholic Church, indeed, he wasn’t even Catholic!).
3. IMHO, GOD gave us the Bible. And PEOPLE - believing people (Jewish, Orthodox, Catholic, etc.) were guided by God to preserve and protect such - and to affirm what is and is not from God. LATER, most denominations in some official, formal way typically in some meeting ACKNOWLEDGED that corpus of books. Your denomination did that at Trent, Italy in the 16th Century, mine did it in St. Louis, MO in the 19th century. There is ZERO evidence that The Catholic Church gave us the Bible. It doesn’t even CLAIM to have existed when most of it was given. It’s an absurd but very popular and common Catholic claim; simply baseless.

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[PRmerger]

If it’s historically documented that The Catholic Church gave us the Bible, then IT gave us ALL of the Bible. Do you believe The Ten Commandments are biblical?

Yes, I do.

Do you? How do you know it’s from God and the Hindu Scriptures are not? Because of the Catholic Church telling you so!

The question is not WHAT told Joe Blow what is and is not “inspired,”

Of course it is. How would you know that Galatians is inspired but the Gospel of Thomas is not? Because the CC told you so.

Each and every time you quote Scripture you are giving implicit agreement to the authority of the Catholic Church to declare what was inspired and what was not.

Of course, in your paradigm you can pray about it, and “guided by the Holy Spirit” and come to your own understanding–perhaps decide on your own that the Gospel of Thomas is God’s Word. That would be compatible with your paradigm, yes?

Actually, The Catholic Church didn’t tell ME that. It may have officially acknowledged such in some formal sense - as have virtually all other denominations as well, but that’s entirely moot to the issue of this thread and the question before us.

Ok. So how do you know that the Ten Commandments are part of God’s Revelation? Did you pray about it and it came to you through private revelation?

 

[AmericanJosiah]

Yes, I do.

Good. You believe The Ten Commandments are a part of Scripture. Ergo, document to me that The Cathlolic Church gave them. Because THAT’S the issue we’re discussing: whether the often made Catholic claim is historically true: that The Catholic Church gave us the Bible. Not part of it, all of it. Not acknowledged it, gave it. Not had an official meeting and formally affirmed the list of books just like most other denominations, gave it.

Begin with The Ten Commandments (generally regarded as the oldest part of The Bible) and prove that The Catholic Church gave it. Then continue - thorugh each book - through the Revelation of John (generally regarded as the newest part of the Bible) and show that The Catholic Church gave us each and all of it.

Of course it is. How would you know that Galatians is inspired but the Gospel of Thomas is not? Because the CC told you so.

So, what told the Israelites the The Ten Commandments are inspired? What told King Josiah about the Book of the Law? What told the believers in the 60’s that Galatians was? All these were some 400 years before ANYTHING did ANYTHING - and some 430 years before the claimed “council” of “The Catholic Church” referenced in this thread.

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[PRmerger]

Good. You believe The Ten Commandments are a part of Scripture. Ergo, document to me that The Cathlolic Church gave them.

Josiah, the fact that YOU and I know the Ten Commandments are given to us, and are part of the OT, is because the CC told you to include it.

Documentation is this: it is in your Bible. And the Baghavad Gita is not.

The fact that it’s even in the Bible at all is testament to the fact that the CC preserved it and recognized it as inspired.

So, what told the Israelites the The Ten Commandments are inspired?

Josiah, the fact that you know that the Israelites considered the Ten Commandments inspired is, again, testament to the CC preserving that fact for you.

The Muslims consider the Koran inspired. Yet the CC has rejected the Koran–and so do you, because the CC told you to reject it!

 

[AmericanJosiah]

Josiah, the fact that YOU and I know the Ten Commandments are given to us, and are part of the OT, is because the CC told you to include it.

The CC told ME nothing about this.
The CC told the Jews nothing about this.
Truth is: The CC wouldn’t have the OT unless the JEWS received it and preserved it.

But you are diverting the topic. The subject here is the often made Catholic claim that The Catholic Church gave us the Bible. If you are going to continue to argue the claim is true, then support it. Begin with The Ten Commandments (generally regarded to be the oldest part of the Bible around 1400 BC) and continue right on through all the material through Revelation (generally regarded as the newest part, about 95 AD) and show us how The Catholic Church gave all this to us.

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[jmcrae]

If it’s historically documented that The Catholic Church gave us the Bible, then IT gave us ALL of the Bible. Do you believe The Ten Commandments are biblical?

The Catholic Church included the Books of Exodus and Deuteronomy, which contain versions of the Ten Commandments, in the Bible - yes. Prior to that, there was no Bible. They were separate books. Granted, nobody would have excluded those specific books from the Liturgy, since they had been Liturgical books right from the moment they were penned, but they were not “in the Bible” until the Bible actually began to exist, after 400 AD.

Once they were put into the Bible by St. Jerome, then yes, they became “Biblical.”

1. Moot to the issue of this thread. The question is not WHAT told Joe Blow what is and is not “inspired,” the issue is whether it is historically documented that The Catholic Church gave us the Bible - all of it, all the material from Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21. It is an offen made Catholic claim, but I agree with the opening poster - it simply is baseless. And historically impossible.

St. Jerome produced the first complete Bible - one codex containing 73 books arranged in order - in the early 400s AD.

 

[ricko]

Martin Luther said condescendingly and offensively in his Commentary on St. John chapter XIV, that “We are compelled to concede to the papists that they have the Word of God; that we received it from them, and that without them we should have had no knowledge of it at all.” A Christian Bible must be made up of the books in the Old Testament, as well as the books in the New Testament. Hence the Council of Carthage included the Septuagint version of 46 Old Testament books in its canon of sacred Scripture. protestants hold, as do all Protestant ministers, that 7 of these 46 books are “apocrypha” (spurious). This was denied by St. Cyril, Bishop of Alexandria, eleven centuries before Protestantism began to inflict the religious world with its counterfeit editions of the Bible.

As you can see Martin Luther knew history and conceded that the Catholic Church compiled the bible. The Catholic Church did not write the OT but selected the Septuagint to include in the bible. The NT was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit and of the many different writings those that compose the NT as we know today were selected by the Catholic Church.

 

[jen_fla]

1. Moot. The issue of this thread is NOT that The Catholic Church kept the Two Tablets safe, it is that IT “gave us” the Bible. From Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21 (not just part of it).
2. Odd how you so dismiss the Jews, the Orthodox from all this. Friend, if the JEWS had not collected and protected and preserved most of the Bible - The Catholic Church would never have heard of it! (Might want to review one of my favorite OT stories, the one about Josiah on that - and note that Josiah was JEWISH - not The Catholic Church, indeed, he wasn’t even Catholic!).
3. IMHO, GOD gave us the Bible. And PEOPLE - believing people (Jewish, Orthodox, Catholic, etc.) were guided by God to preserve and protect such - and to affirm what is and is not from God. LATER, most denominations in some official, formal way typically in some meeting ACKNOWLEDGED that corpus of books. Your denomination did that at Trent, Italy in the 16th Century, mine did it in St. Louis, MO in the 19th century. There is ZERO evidence that The Catholic Church gave us the Bible. It doesn’t even CLAIM to have existed when most of it was given. It’s an absurd but very popular and common Catholic claim; simply baseless.

is it lost on you that the founder and first leaders of the CC were Jewish? … that Catholicism is an extension of Judaism that grew to include everyone?

and can you not also see that a part of something does not equal the whole?

would you not acknowledge the first man or woman that put together an automobile just because the wheel had already been in use thousands of years before that?

it is a historical fact that the CC had numerous popes BEFORE the Bible even existed. you can not argue this point, by claiming that parts of the Bible were in existence beforehand. and even so as it has been pointed out to you, different sect of Jews used different books. there was no clear agreement. the Holy Bible is what it is in it’s entirety. and the Bible Catholics use today is exactly the same as the one st Jermome put together. we have been consistent for 2000 years.

i know it’s a lot to take it given what you were taught, but the missing books in the KJV didn’t go missing until very recently in history.

try looking at this on a timeline and things should fall into place.

 

[jmcrae]

would you not acknowledge the first man or woman that put together an automobile just because the wheel had already been in use thousands of years before that?

That’s a brilliant analogy.

 

[PRmerger]

The CC told ME nothing about this.

So how did you come to know that the Ten Commandments are inspired? Private revelation? Or because it’s in your Bible?

If it’s in your Bible, it’s because the CC initially determined that it should be in there. No one else decided that–the Methodists weren’t around.
The Deliverance Church of Christ wasn’t around.
The Divine Fellowship Church wasn’t around.
The Divine Healer’s Church wasn’t around.
The Divine Healing Church of Christ wasn’t around.
The Divine Healing Church of Israel wasn’t around.
The Divine Love Gospel Church wasn’t around.
The Divine Prayer Society 1944 wasn’t around.
(source taken from just a few of the over 40,000 denominations here)

 

[AmericanJosiah]

is it lost on you that the founder and first leaders of the CC were Jewish? … that Catholicism is an extension of Judaism that grew to include everyone?

I think you are addressing different issues.

The issue before us is if it is historically documented that The Catholic Church gave us the Bible. All of it, from Genesis 1:1-Revelation 22:21. Not Jews, not Catholics, not parts, not acknowledging, not correcting, but IT gave us the Bible - and all it contains.

While I’d agree that the Founder of the one holy catholic church - the communion of saints (Jesus) was Jewish by race, that does not mean that The Catholic Church gave us the Bible.

can you not also see that a part of something does not equal the whole?

Certainly. Do you believe that the OT is part of the Bible as a whole? IF the often made claim and the issue of this thread is true, and The Catholic Church gave us the Bible, then The Catholic Church MUST have given us the OT - and every part of it. So, if you want to argue that the claim is true, then begin with The Ten Commandments (generally regarded as the oldest part of the Bible - around 1400 BC) and show that The Catholic Church gave that. Then progress through all the material, documenting that each and every bit was given by The Catholic Church, finishing with Revelation (thought to be the newest part - around 95 AD) to show it all given by The Catholic Church.

it is a historical fact that the CC had numerous popes BEFORE the Bible even existed.

What popes of The Catholic Church existed before 1400 BC? That’s when the Bible began to come into existance. Or is your point that the Bible was given retroactively - that The Ten Commandments actually didn’t exist until some pope cause them and then he wrote a story about Moses coming down the mountain with them? Is THAT your point?

try looking at this on a timeline and things should fall into place.

Try looking at the timeline for each of the books of the Bible - from Genesis through Revelation. IF you do, you’ll discover that even IF the Catholic Church’s claim for when it came into existence is true, then about 2/3’s of the Bible COULD NOT have been given by The Catholic Chruch - it didn’t even EXIST!

Read posts 556 and 558. Even for the New Testament, there’s ZERO evidence that The Catholic Church had ANYTHING to do with ANY of those books - or the embrace of such as the inspired word. It didn’t do ANYTHING remotely related to this issue for CENTURIES AFTER the fact.

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[AmericanJosiah]

So how did you come to know that the Ten Commandments are inspired?

Believers acknowledged it. Centuries before ANY denomination did - including yours.

Now, let’s return to the issue of this thread. Which is not how we know whatever, it’s whether it is a documented historical fact that The Catholic Church gave us the Bible - all of it, from Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21 and all therein. It came from The Catholic Church.

I see no historical evidence for this often made Catholic claim. It appears entirely baseless to me.

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[PRmerger]

Believers acknowledged it.

:extrahappy:

Yes!! That’s exactly what we’re saying, Josiah!!

NOW, on to the question of who these Believers were.

Can you give us some examples of what these 3rd century Believers did, Josiah? How they worshipped? What they believed?

 

[jmcrae]

What popes of The Catholic Church existed before 1400 BC? That’s when the Bible began to come into existance.

No. That’s when Moses started writing the book of Leviticus. He was certainly not thinking “Bible” at that time. Rather, he was thinking that it would be good to get some of those old stories about God and the people of God down in writing, so that all of the Levites would be using the same text during the primitive Liturgy.

Or is your point that the Bible was given retroactively - that The Ten Commandments actually didn’t exist until some pope cause them and then he wrote a story about Moses coming down the mountain with them? Is THAT your point?

The Bible is a codex of 73 books all together in one set of covers, in one language.

Moses didn’t have a Bible. He had five books (at best - not everything in the Five Books of Moses was necessarily written by Moses, most notably, the stories about his death and about the things that took place after his death) that were used by the Levites in their primitive Liturgy.

However, he was lacking 68 of the 73 Books of the Bible.