The Catholic church did not give us the Bible

[KindredSoul]

Oh, and I do feel the need to clarify: When I say things such as “If a Pope told people to kill people” it is strictly to drag the point home. The Inquisitions and the like, while certainly not perfect, were not so simplistic as a Pope saying “Go and kill those people,” and in fact that would be a gross misrepresentation of what the Inquisitions were and how they worked. But I put it in such a way because even if things like the Inquisitions were as undeniably, gleefully and deliberately cruel (as though those involved had the one-dimensional comic-book motive of spilling blood and causing pain) it still would not work against Catholicism as a religion or the Catholic Church as an institution the way that some seem to believe.

I just wanted to clarify my stance a little for the sake of not having my first post in the thread misrepresent what I actually believe about the events in question, but this clarification really doesn’t enter into the debate at all without derailing the thread. Carry on.

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul

 

[jen_fla]

hi not too smart.

i don’t think you are a troll, but you have to understand how much hatred and misinformation is out there towards the Catholic Church and sometimes we react poorly to someone who makes false statements.

we are not bragging, but merely defending. i think a good analogy would be if someone from another faith told you Jesus isn’t the only God. you would probably defend Jesus by saying there are no other Gods before or with him. the other party might accuse you of bragging that only you had the correct religion. understand this isn’t about us, it’s about following what Christ has asked us to do and defending Him and His Church.

i have three links that will help you tremendously in understanding.

from one of our CAF members. not too long. pretty straightforward:

here

this has answers to probably most if not all of your objections. the site looks a bit dated, but the articles are fine. hey, it even mentions scandals!

here

and you are right in when you said one person being sexually abused is too many. i agree, but facts are facts and this article might make you wonder why the media seems to focus solely on the CC. you should also know that the united states has had a long history of anti-Catholicism. just so as Christ is misunderstood by the world so is his Holy Church.

protestant abuse scandals

ask our good Lord to guide you and to grant you the wisdom to see. then approach this topic in a fair and reasonable manner.

peace out.

 

[NotTooSmart]

hi not too smart.

i don’t think you are a troll, but you have to understand how much hatred and misinformation is out there towards the Catholic Church and sometimes we react poorly to someone who makes false statements.

Well thank you. My primary mission here is to learn and evaluate. I do not have a well formed opinion of the Catholic church. I have heard everything from Jack Chick to Billy Graham.

I really just started this thread to point out an inconsistency I have seen and to measure your responses to this. The compliments that I have received go into my evaluation. You see, how the church behaves is an important metric in my thinking.

we are not bragging, but merely defending.

Well that is not how it comes across, to be honest. But if I were a member of a group that believed itself to be the One True Church and every one else to be inferior, it would be sooo easy for me to cop the attitude that surfaces in many posts here.

i think a good analogy would be if someone from another faith told you Jesus isn’t the only God. you would probably defend Jesus by saying there are no other Gods before or with him. the other party might accuse you of bragging that only you had the correct religion. understand this isn’t about us, it’s about following what Christ has asked us to do and defending Him and His Church.

Actually, I would first try to have a conversation with him to learn where He is coming from and where He is in his spiritual journey. How I would respond depends on where he is at. My objective would be to help him make his next step towards Christ in his journey.

My objective is to lead folks to the Lord with my example and life, not “defend the faith”. God can defend the faith by himself.

i have three links that will help you tremendously in understanding.

from one of our CAF members. not too long. pretty straightforward:

here

this has answers to probably most if not all of your objections. the site looks a bit dated, but the articles are fine. hey, it even mentions scandals!

here

Actually I have read Catholic apologetics from perhaps one of the best of your sources (Dave Armstrong). Where he is successful is in nudging my opinion towards the Catholics towards the Billy Graham/Charles Colson end of the spectrum. Where he is not successful is in convincing me that y’all are THE ONE TRUE CHURCH.

Now, to be honest, many of y’all, with all (given all of the compliments I have received), must really be trying to nudge my opinion of Catholicism back towards the Jack Chick end of the spectrum. Maybe there are a whole lot of imbedded Protestants here claiming to be Catholic that have exactly this objective for all I know.

and you are right in when you said one person being sexually abused is too many. i agree, but facts are facts and this article might make you wonder why the media seems to focus solely on the CC. you should also know that the united states has had a long history of anti-Catholicism. just so as Christ is misunderstood by the world so is his Holy Church.

protestant abuse scandals

ask our good Lord to guide you and to grant you the wisdom to see. then approach this topic in a fair and reasonable manner.

peace out.

Oh I can raise this article many times more. Google John Canning Sebring Florida murder and you will read the account of a Pentecostal pastor who is a mass murderer. I have shaken his hands in my uncle’s church many years ago.

 

[PRmerger]

You see, how the church behaves is an important metric in my thinking.

I could see how you would be disinclined to investigate a Church in which its members appear rude, boorish, condescending, arrogant…

However, there’s a story about a Catholic writer, Walker Percy, who was a curmudgeonly old soul. Apparently, after an encounter with a snippy woman in which he was gruff–and, perhaps rude, boorish, curt–this woman sniffed, “And you call yourself a Catholic!” to which he replied, “My dear, you should imagine what I would be like were I not a Catholic.”

(This story I heard many years ago…so perhaps the details are incorrect. The point still stands, however: One cannot make a judgement about whether this person acts like a “Catholic” or “Christian”, unless one knew what they were like before. Or, what they would be like without membership in the One True Church. Perhaps the posters who have made distasteful comments are one step better than they would have been BECAUSE of the CC…we’ll never know, will we? )

You should become Catholic because it’s TRUE, not based on what you see in others. Investigate the theology, NotTooSmart, and then come home and you can lead others to Christ by your behavior.

 

[PRmerger]

**Originally Posted by NotTooSmart **
You see, how the church behaves is an important metric in my thinking.

One more thing, NotTooSmart:

Consistent with the theme of this thread–perhaps you should also take a look at the other side: Catholics who provide a rather wondrous example of sacramental and sacrificial love: Mother Teresa, Maximilian Kolbe, Francis of Assissi, the local parish priest who dedicates his life to the service of God, the contemplative nuns who pray for you every hour of the day…

 

[PRmerger]

Wow! One final thought on your comment:
You see, how the church behaves is an important metric in my thinking.

In your theological discussions I’m assuming that you’ve encountered an atheist or two. I know I have. Many are quite considerate, thoughtful, polite, nice, kind–however, I don’t judge the veracity of their arguments by whether they are polite to me. I judge their arguments on their own merits.

 

[NotTooSmart]

I could see how you would be disinclined to investigate a Church in which its members appear rude, boorish, condescending, arrogant…

However, there’s a story about a Catholic writer, Walker Percy, who was a curmudgeonly old soul. Apparently, after an encounter with a snippy woman in which he was gruff–and, perhaps rude, boorish, curt–this woman sniffed, “And you call yourself a Catholic!” to which he replied, “My dear, you should imagine what I would be like were I not a Catholic.”

(This story I heard many years ago…so perhaps the details are incorrect. The point still stands, however: One cannot make a judgement about whether this person acts like a “Catholic” or “Christian”, unless one knew what they were like before. Or, what they would be like without membership in the One True Church. Perhaps the posters who have made distasteful comments are one step better than they would have been BECAUSE of the CC…we’ll never know, will we? )

You should become Catholic because it’s TRUE, not based on what you see in others. Investigate the theology, NotTooSmart, and then come home and you can lead others to Christ by your behavior.

Oh…just for the record. I have no intention of changing churches. I am happy where I am thank you.

When I say investigate the Catholic church, I really mean in respect to how I view it. You see opinions amongst evangelical type folks that I know or have read over the internet range from “Whore of Babylon…False Church” of Jack Chick tracts to the Billy Graham type where you are a Christian church that may not be right on all things but hey…we might not be absolutely correct on everything either.

Now I lean towards the latter, but my opinion is not solid. Now I have that leaning because everything that I have read on the Jack Chick side of the spectrum wants me to start out with the assumption that Catholics are the boogyman. And I might be NotTooSmart, but I hope to have a basic sense of fairness.

And if I were to “come home” to anything, that would be of course to the Methodist Church of my youth.

 

[NotTooSmart]

One more thing, NotTooSmart:

Consistent with the theme of this thread–perhaps you should also take a look at the other side: Catholics who provide a rather wondrous example of sacramental and sacrificial love: Mother Teresa, Maximilian Kolbe, Francis of Assissi, the local parish priest who dedicates his life to the service of God, the contemplative nuns who pray for you every hour of the day…

Oh I don’t have to go that far.

All I really need to do is remember a wonderful Catholic family that I knew when I was a young 'un in college.

Now they were as Catholic as the pope…

But they would from time to time go to our church on Sunday evening (they were Catholic Charismatics). And they would have us kids over to their house where they had wonderful kids our age. They would love us to pieces and we would love them to pieces also.

So the same Catholic church that gave me the folks here who have given me the many fine compliments, also gave me this family whom I really loved then and still remember with great fondness many years later.

So go figure.

 

[Randy_Carson]

And if I were to “come home” to anything, that would be of course to the Methodist Church of my youth.

Gee, I was Methodist in my youth.

Did you know that Wesley believed in prayer for the dead and the Perpetual Virginity of Mary?

 

[NotTooSmart]

Gee, I was Methodist in my youth.

Did you know that Wesley believed in prayer for the dead and the Perpetual Virginity of Mary?

I’ve read that before. I think maybe on Dave Armstrong’s web site.

Doesn’t mean that it is true, though. Because other great Christians that I also love and respect do not hold these particualar beliefs.

But what it does suggest is maybe I shouldn’t have a cow over this either way. I mean if there will be great Christians in eternity that will undoubtedly have far greater places of honor there than little-old-me, that at the same time disagreed on this and other issues while on earth, then just maybe what we believed on these issues of disagreement is far less important to God than how we conducted our lives in the short time we had on this planet.

FWIW, John Wesley is probably my most favorite early Protestant. But that is probably the Methodist in me.

 

[Zooey]

This has to be the most:whacky: bizarre thread so far this year.
As far as I can figure out, we might as well descend into total :whacky:nonsense, so:

[A] All dogs bark. and;
** The moon is made of green cheese.
Therefore my cat is a…shihtzu.:doh2:

Seriously. That is how much sense:shrug:] all this makes…:dts::dts:**

 

[kalt]

I’ve read that before. I think maybe on Dave Armstrong’s web site.

Doesn’t mean that it is true, though. Because other great Christians that I also love and respect do not hold these particualar beliefs.

But what it does suggest is maybe I shouldn’t have a cow over this either way. I mean if there will be great Christians in eternity that will undoubtedly have far greater places of honor there than little-old-me, that at the same time disagreed on this and other issues while on earth, then just maybe what we believed on these issues of disagreement is far less important to God than how we conducted our lives in the short time we had on this planet.

FWIW, John Wesley is probably my most favorite early Protestant. But that is probably the Methodist in me.

Do you think it’s possible that the people you “love and respect” may be very fine people, but are a little off on theology? You seem to be deciding what’s right and wrong based on who you think is swell. If he’s a DSG, well then, his theology must be right. Don’t you think that’s that’s a “not-too-smart” way of looking at things? It reminds me of the way young people think. At first they believe everything their parents tell them is gospel. Then they go to school and think the teacher is the living end. At college, well, they’re ready to throw off all their old ideas and values and accept what the prof. says as gospel.

Do you look at things for yourself? Look at the facts and forget what the “swell” people think? Come to your own conclusions?

 

[Tomster]

This has to be the most:whacky: bizarre thread so far this year.
As far as I can figure out, we might as well descend into total :whacky:nonsense, so:

[A] All dogs bark. and;
** The moon is made of green cheese.
Therefore my cat is a…shihtzu.:doh2:

Seriously. That is how much sense:shrug:] all this makes…:dts::dts:**

Amen sister !

 

[kalt]

This has to be the most:whacky: bizarre thread so far this year.
As far as I can figure out, we might as well descend into total :whacky:nonsense, so:

[A] All dogs bark. and;
** The moon is made of green cheese.
Therefore my cat is a…shihtzu.:doh2:

Seriously. That is how much sense:shrug:] all this makes…**

But it makes perfect sense.

Ford gave us the Model-T.
So, Ford gave us drunk drivers.

You can’t brag about the good stuff if you’re not going to take the rap for the bad stuff.

It makes perfect sense.

 

[NotTooSmart]

Do you think it’s possible that the people you “love and respect” may be very fine people, but are a little off on theology? You seem to be deciding what’s right and wrong based on who you think is swell. If he’s a DSG, well then, his theology must be right. Don’t you think that’s that’s a “not-too-smart” way of looking at things? It reminds me of the way young people think. At first they believe everything their parents tell them is gospel. Then they go to school and think the teacher is the living end. At college, well, they’re ready to throw off all their old ideas and values and accept what the prof. says as gospel.

Do you look at things for yourself? Look at the facts and forget what the “swell” people think? Come to your own conclusions?

Obviously somebody is “off theologically”. What this does suggest though is maybe these issues are not as important to the Lord Jesus Christ as they are to folks arguing over the internet about them.

As far as “look at things for yourself”? You might be pleased to know that I spent some time on Dave Armstrong’s website reading what he had to say. The notion of a former evangelical turned Catholic turned Catholic apologist seemed well fascinating to me. And that sort of got me on this kick I am on today.

Anyway, as I said before, his arguments were quite convincing in that your church is not the “spawn of satan”. They were not convincing at all in that your church is the ONE TRUE CHURCH

 

[nlm]

Do you think it’s possible that the people you “love and respect” may be very fine people, but are a little off on theology? You seem to be deciding what’s right and wrong based on who you think is swell. If he’s a DSG, well then, his theology must be right. Don’t you think that’s that’s a “not-too-smart” way of looking at things? It reminds me of the way young people think. At first they believe everything their parents tell them is gospel. Then they go to school and think the teacher is the living end. At college, well, they’re ready to throw off all their old ideas and values and accept what the prof. says as gospel.

Do you look at things for yourself? Look at the facts and forget what the “swell” people think? Come to your own conclusions?

What I hear NOT TO SMART relating to us is in a time when members of various denominations did not always acknowledge each other and quite often even as neighbours kept to themselves, he had the good fortune to meet this Catholic family who could obviously see beyond these differences and practiced what they had been taught to love their neighbour. After all, we were not told to love our neighbour if he is Catholic. I also find two other comments about that family interesting. They were members of the Charismatic group AND they sometimes attended the church service in another denomination. What I see here were people putting their Christian values into practice AND they were open minded and interested in knowing FOR THEMSELVES what this other denomination was teaching. Good for them and good for you to have experienced such fine christian people.They obviously made quite an impression on you…you are still talking about it.NLM

 

[NotTooSmart]

This has to be the most:whacky: bizarre thread so far this year.
As far as I can figure out, we might as well descend into total :whacky:nonsense, so:

[A] All dogs bark. and;
** The moon is made of green cheese.
Therefore my cat is a…shihtzu.:doh2:

Seriously. That is how much sense:shrug:] all this makes…:dts::dts:**
Yup I am nonsense. Or so I have been told.

Most folks that know me think I am a little off too.

That is why I am NotTooSmart.

But you have to do better than this to make my list of compliments that I have been accumulating. You get the grand prize if you can top the one that said I have demons.

 

[NotTooSmart]

What I hear NOT TO SMART relating to us is in a time when members of various denominations did not always acknowledge each other and quite often even as neighbours kept to themselves, he had the good fortune to meet this Catholic family who could obviously see beyond these differences and practiced what they had been taught to love their neighbour. After all, we were not told to love our neighbour if he is Catholic. I also find two other comments about that family interesting. They were members of the Charismatic group AND they sometimes attended the church service in another denomination. What I see here were people putting their Christian values into practice AND they were open minded and interested in knowing FOR THEMSELVES what this other denomination was teaching. Good for them and good for you to have experienced such fine christian people.They obviously made quite an impression on you…you are still talking about it.NLM

Absolutely!

These were wonderful folks and some of my most favorite Christians that I have met in my lifetime,

Yes and they did not believe that us poor, heretical Protestants were the boogeyman either. In fact they were not in the least condescending to any of us (I don’t think they considered us “heretical” anyway, it certainly did not show).

 

[NotTooSmart]

This has to be the most:whacky: bizarre thread so far this year.
As far as I can figure out, we might as well descend into total :whacky:nonsense, so:

[A] All dogs bark. and;
** The moon is made of green cheese.
Therefore my cat is a…shihtzu.:doh2:

Seriously. That is how much sense:shrug:] all this makes…:dts::dts:**
But even if to you I am just whacky nonsense, it still to me does not make sense. I still have a great big disconnect.

Catholic clergy while acting as Catholic clergy performed the tasks necessary in sorting through all of the ancient documents available at that time to create the new Testament.

Catholic clergy while acting as Catholic clergy (not off hours in Joe’s bar) molested altar boys and covered it up.

In the first case we have “the Catholic church gave us the Bible”.

In the second case we have “this was not the Catholic church this was just men”

I still have a great big disconnect on this one. Sorry.

It must be because I am NotTooSmart (as other posters here have told me) and because I make “whacky nonsense” (hey I like that phrase). I get it.

Maybe this does make my list of compliments, Haven’t decided yet.

 

[Mickey]

In the first case we have “the Catholic church gave us the Bible”.

In the second case we have “this was not the Catholic church this was just men”

I still have a great big disconnect on this one. Sorry.

I’ll take a crack at it!

In the first case, we have the early Church in council mulling over many writings to discern which ones are gnostic and which ones are inspired. The result was of the Holy Spirit.

The second case was the result of sinful human beings acting on sinful passions inspired by the evil one. Love the sinner hate the sin.