The Catholic church did not give us the Bible

[jmcrae]

Hello All and thank you all for your guidance

What happened to all the Gentile souls prior to Jesus?

And the the souls prior to the creation of the Jewish Nation?

If there was no method for the forgivness of sins were all lost?

The question (1) has expanded even more and I thank you again for your time.

Nobody went to Heaven until Jesus opened the gates to human beings, by rising from the dead in the Hypostatic Union - 100% human, and 100% Divine. Since His Divinity could not be kept out of Heaven, and since His humanity was(is) bound up into His Divinity, then His humanity went with Him into Heaven, which is the first time a human person ever went to Heaven - this caused the locks to blow off the doors of Heaven, and it was now possible for human beings to enter in. The fact of His rising from the dead is what made it possible for human beings to go to Heaven.

Prior to that, the Greeks spoke of Hades, and the Jews spoke of Sheol, which are both words evoking the abode of the dead.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Ooops, apologies. That should have been John 20:21-23.
And here are the verses

(Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. 23 ** Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” **

Hisalone I know that any thing cathloic has you cofused but just read and say a little pray be fore you talk now please read it all,its the words of Our Lord and He has made it very clear a blind can understand ==== He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained… now do you think you have it

 

[robsully]

Hello all

Hello nsper7; Good advice, regardless of where I recieve my information I must use a consistant yardstick to measure the answers to my questions.But I feel this is very good forum to recieve prospectives.If lay-Catholics, lay-Protestants or lay-Jews do not understand the foundation of their respective religions, how would I?
So far the answers and posters, have been frank, honest ,kind and respectful of my ignorance. And for that I am thankful.

Hello PRmerger.

Did those prior to the establishment of the"chosen" and therefore prior to the forgiveness of Jesus and his followers have a method or forgiveness while still alive?

 

[PRmerger]

Did those prior to the establishment of the"chosen" and therefore prior to the forgiveness of Jesus and his followers have a method or forgiveness while still alive?

The Catholic Church does not have a teaching on this, so we are free to speculate. So, did God “hold it against someone” who was remorseful of his sin? Probably not. But could this person enter into heaven when he died, remorseful and repentant? No. Not until the Redemption of humanity.

What the CC does teach: heaven was not open until Christ paid the price for our sins. Thus, before the Redemption, no one was saved.

 

[robsully]

Hello PRmerger, I am finding this Q&A extremely helpful and your time is greatly appreciated.

Let me sum up a little of what I have learnt.

Humanity was kept out of heaven until Jesus died thus paying the price for our sins?

Dead Gentlies (sheol) were allowed in only after acceptence of Jesus and his meassage?

Jews who had a method of atonement(forgiving) given to them by God via animal sacrifice and repentence ( this were I get hazy) were already/not there.

If you are getting tired of my queries, please say so, I don’t won’t to be a bother.

If others would like to join in please do. Prmerger must be tired by now?

 

[PRmerger]

Hello PRmerger, I am finding this Q&A extremely helpful and your time is greatly appreciated.

Let me sum up a little of what I have learnt.

Rob, what is your religious background? Were you raised in a Christian household?

 

[jmcrae]

Hello PRmerger, I am finding this Q&A extremely helpful and your time is greatly appreciated.

Let me sum up a little of what I have learnt.

Humanity was kept out of heaven until Jesus died thus paying the price for our sins?

He died not only for our temporal sins but also for the Original Sin of Adam (which is why St. Paul and others refer to Him as a “second Adam”), and rose again from the dead to open the gates of Heaven to the human race.

Dead Gentlies (sheol) were allowed in only after acceptence of Jesus and his meassage?

We don’t know what happened to the dead Gentiles. The Old Testament Saints were allowed into Heaven when Jesus opened the gates by rising from the dead.

Jews who had a method of atonement(forgiving) given to them by God via animal sacrifice and repentence ( this were I get hazy) were already/not there.

Their temporal sins were already forgiven, but the Original Sin of Adam with which they were born was not washed away until Christ died on the Cross. As I mentioned above, they subsequently went to Heaven when Jesus opened the doors by rising from the dead.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

…unless you also want to say that the Catholic church gave us the inquisition and the priest sex abuse scandals.

The point being that you can not take credit for the positive while at the same time pass the buck on the negative. A little consistency on this please.

Not too Smart:

Some material on the Inquisition:

The Truth about the Spanish Inquisition
trosch.org/for/inquisition.html

The Truth about the Spanish Inquisition
catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0075.html

Spero News - A new look at the Spanish Inquisition

I think it should be noted that almost all suspects in the Inquisition had Legal Guarantees such as Trial by Jury, Assistance of Council & the Right to Confront their Accusers, and many people charged with Serious Civil Offenses (such as Robbery, Murder & Homicide) would “Blaspheme God” in order to be tried by the Courts of the Inquisition (rather than the Civil Courts where they had Few or NO Legal Guarantees).

I’m always amazed how Protestants who point to the Inquisition, avoid discussing The (Protestant) Witch Hunts (Additional links - The European Witch-Hunts (Gendercide Watch), Recent developments in the Study of the Great European Witch Hunt, & Absolute Astronomy - Witch-hunt) and the history of anti-Catholic Persecution & Bigotry in Great Britain, Northern Europe and even the USA (It was against the Law to be a Catholic in most of the American Colonies from 1620 to 1775).

I think the FACTS about the REAL Inquisition, where people had Rights such as Assistance of Counsel and the Right to Confront their Accusers, and where most of the people were neither tortured nor executed, will compare favorably with the Witch Trials in Northern Europe where Women were tortured unto confessions, convicted on the basis of those confessions and then “burned at the stake”, or jailed in absolutely deplorable conditions, or punished with what our framers rightly called “cruel and unusual punishments”.

I think it should be noted that the charity and decency of most of the Catholics here keeps them from responding to posts such as yours as I just did. But I felt an uncharitable and unedifying thread such as this merited a reminder that we all live in glass houses, and that none of us has the right to do as you did. I would hope that a reminder such as this would cause threads such as this never to be started, and that, once started, in the interests of charity, to be closed.

We have far more edifying things to discuss than this.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[robsully]

Hello PRmerger

My religous education is mostly self taught. This comes from books, the media, and the internet. This forum being multi faith has been very informative.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

I question all religions - give me the name and location where your church originated, and don’t tell me the book of Acts. I want to see it in historical print. You will find the Catholic Church, was in fact, the only church, until break-offs. Most religions came into being in the 1700-1800’s and some 1900’s.

Some, like the Church of Christ, state they are the first church…erroneously. After the apostles began the ministry, the only historical Christian Church was the Catholic Church, who in turn did preserve the scriptures, the Bible, as the sacred word of God, God’s inspired words. Through the Holy Spirit, God used man to write.

What fasiniates me, is when people take one statement from God’s word and build an entire religion on that one statement. Case and point: there are no instruments mentioned when the church got together in the New Testament. They sang. There are churches today that refuse to use instruments in worship. It is sinful to play a piano, harp, guitar etc…during worship. They sing, but no instruments. They claim if God wanted instruments, it would have been clear in the New Testament. God didn’t tell us to use electric…or how about song books? Is the use of song books during worship wrong? I don’t believe the first church had song books. They sang from the heart. Does that rule out our song books that we use today?

There are some churches who will not support orphans, taking other verses, and stretching the interpretation. It is our interpretations that make the incosistancies. There are still 10 divine principles to live by and to love your neighbor, as yourself, the Golden Rule.

I believe my church is the true church, not gloating, or speaking condesending. I am gratefull for all Christians who practice their religion in this sinful world around us.

As far as judging…I will leave that up to God. We may all be surprised when we get there! Our faith creates who we are. Faith and works are one. Without works, religion is empty. Without faith, religion is worthless. They go together like PBJ…peanut butter and jelly!

Arguing over certain issues is fruitless. Accept the historical facts. Time would be better off spent in doing what God would want us to do. To motivate others, to aid the sick, feed the hungry…our calling is loud and clear, service to others, without reward.

I challenge you today, to take out the negativity, and replace it with a smile, and a hand to help another. A kind word to make someone smile, a pot of soup for the home bound, I am sorry for what I did when you hurt a friend, watch a child for a pregnant mother, share your groceries with a family who has lost their income, anything that will take your mind off you, and replace it with another human life. Do this one time, each day, and works will come naturally. It doesn’t have to win a Nobel Peace Prize, just one good thing. Even if no one sees it, God does, and your treasure will be stored in heaven.

God be with us all today!

PS - I didn’t check spelling.

Bridget Case:

Well Said - Esp. that pat at the end. I can say I owe my life to someone who did as you suggested we should try to do.

Thank you for reminding us that that is the 2nd part of the “Summary of the Law” and “True Religion” as St. James the Apostle put it.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[robsully]

Hello jmcrae.

The original sin of Adam. Please explain. Is this common in all religions( Jewish and christianity)

 

[Traditional_Ang]

The following should be edited as follows, esp. since I have discovered from reading the thread that the O.P. “Not Too Smart” was the one primarily responsible for provoking hostilities, while most of the separated Brethren here have tried to distance themselves from him and his anti-Catholic Attacks…

Not too Smart:

Some material on the Inquisition:

The Truth about the Spanish Inquisition
trosch.org/for/inquisition.html

The Truth about the Spanish Inquisition
catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0075.html

Spero News - A new look at the Spanish Inquisition

I think it should be noted that almost all suspects in the Inquisition had Legal Guarantees such as Trial by Jury, Assistance of Council & the Right to Confront their Accusers, and many people charged with Serious Civil Offenses (such as Robbery, Murder & Homicide) would “Blaspheme God” in order to be tried by the Courts of the Inquisition (rather than the Civil Courts where they had Few or NO Legal Guarantees).

I’m always amazed how some Protestants such as this poster who point to the Inquisition, avoid discussing The (Protestant) Witch Hunts (Additional links - The European Witch-Hunts (Gendercide Watch), Recent developments in the Study of the Great European Witch Hunt, & Absolute Astronomy - Witch-hunt) and the history of anti-Catholic Persecution & Bigotry in Great Britain, Northern Europe and even the USA - I’m sure the O.P. would be surprised to learn that it was illegal to be a Catholic in most of the American Colonies from 1620 to 1775 & that anti-Catholic Bigotry was common in this country until the election of President John F. Kennedy…

I think the FACTS about the REAL Inquisition, where people had Rights such as Assistance of Counsel and the Right to Confront their Accusers, and where most of the people were neither tortured nor executed, will compare favorably with the Witch Trials in Northern Europe where Women were tortured into confessions, convicted on the basis of those confessions and then “burned at the stake”, or jailed in absolutely deplorable conditions, or punished with what our framers rightly called “cruel and unusual punishments”.

I think it should be noted that the charity and decency of most of the Catholics here keeps them from responding to posts such as yours as I just did. But I felt an uncharitable and unedifying post such as yours merited a reminder that we all live in glass houses, and that none of us has the right to do as you did. I would hope that a reminder such as this would cause the O.P. to reconsider his line of posting and argumentation.

We have far more edifying things to discuss than this.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael

So long as this thread can be maintained charitably and the discussion can be both civil and edifying, I see no reason why the thread would need to be closed.

Remember, there are unbelievers reading this, and they are looking at how we treat each other to see if the claims about Christ are really true. We’re the only witnesses many of them will ever see, and if we’re a bunch of uncharitable SOB’s, that’s what they’re going to think about Christians, and that’s what they’re going to think about Christ.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[benidict]

How can one compare the canonization of scripture to sex scandals, and the Inquisition? And not denying that either of things didn’t happen, they did, the church is made up of sinners, how does that detract from the FACT that it was the Catholic Church that held the counsels that determined which books were inspired, we’re your Charismatic Churches leaders around then, or did you church pop up in the last decade, or even century? And Imagine for one second that if YOUR church did have sex scandals, and something even minor related to an “Inquisition”, would YOUR church have survived, or would it have split, heck, if you had a popular church figure disagree with a pastor and start his/her own church, would YOUR church survive? The mere fact that the Catholic Church does have certain dark pasts, and being around for 2000 years it, filled with people and sinners its bound to have some black sheep, and that IT IS STILL HERE is a testament to the fact that God is with Her. But to the point the reference to sex scandals and an Inquisition as detracting from the Church determining which books are inspired or not, its not even an argument. I’ll keep you in my prayers, you have a lot of demons.

how true. many protestant churches have split over bad behavior by their preachers. i wont name any names. i have enough on my own plate for judgement day. anyway, it was less than one percent of the priesthood acting in this way. i would say the number is higher in say the public school system. what about the ninty nine percent of priest who sacrifice so much for so little. who do live Godly lives in service to the Lord and his church. nobody ever mentions these. its sad that the negative is pushed to the forfront and the good that is done is swept under the rug. every organization has issues. to point a finger at the catholic church in this reguard is to have three pointed back at themselves.

 

[jen_fla]

Not too Smart:

Some material on the Inquisition:

The Truth about the Spanish Inquisition
trosch.org/for/inquisition.html

The Truth about the Spanish Inquisition
catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0075.html

Spero News - A new look at the Spanish Inquisition

I think it should be noted that almost all suspects in the Inquisition had Legal Guarantees such as Trial by Jury, Assistance of Council & the Right to Confront their Accusers, and many people charged with Serious Civil Offenses (such as Robbery, Murder & Homicide) would “Blaspheme God” in order to be tried by the Courts of the Inquisition (rather than the Civil Courts where they had Few or NO Legal Guarantees).

I’m always amazed how Protestants who point to the Inquisition, avoid discussing The (Protestant) Witch Hunts (Additional links - The European Witch-Hunts (Gendercide Watch), Recent developments in the Study of the Great European Witch Hunt, & Absolute Astronomy - Witch-hunt) and the history of anti-Catholic Persecution & Bigotry in Great Britain, Northern Europe and even the USA (It was against the Law to be a Catholic in most of the American Colonies from 1620 to 1775).

I think the FACTS about the REAL Inquisition, where people had Rights such as Assistance of Counsel and the Right to Confront their Accusers, and where most of the people were neither tortured nor executed, will compare favorably with the Witch Trials in Northern Europe where Women were tortured unto confessions, convicted on the basis of those confessions and then “burned at the stake”, or jailed in absolutely deplorable conditions, or punished with what our framers rightly called “cruel and unusual punishments”.

I think it should be noted that the charity and decency of most of the Catholics here keeps them from responding to posts such as yours as I just did. But I felt an uncharitable and unedifying thread such as this merited a reminder that we all live in glass houses, and that none of us has the right to do as you did. I would hope that a reminder such as this would cause threads such as this never to be started, and that, once started, in the interests of charity, to be closed.

We have far more edifying things to discuss than this.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael

Michael, you are refreshing!

peace,
jen

 

[PRmerger]

Hello PRmerger, I am finding this Q&A extremely helpful and your time is greatly appreciated.

Let me sum up a little of what I have learnt.

Humanity was kept out of heaven until Jesus died thus paying the price for our sins?

Dead Gentlies (sheol) were allowed in only after acceptence of Jesus and his meassage?

Jews who had a method of atonement(forgiving) given to them by God via animal sacrifice and repentence ( this were I get hazy) were already/not there.

Here’s something from PopeB16’s encyclical Spe Salvi that may be useful to your studies: " …the recovery of what man had lost through the expulsion from Paradise was expected from faith in Jesus Christ: herein lay “redemption”. Now, this “redemption”, (is) the restoration of the lost “Paradise”…

So through the sin of Adam and Eve, Paradise was lost. That is, we “belonged” to the Enemy. (If you’ve read CS Lewis’ Chronicles of Narnia the analogy is that because of Edmund’s betrayal the White Witch now rightfully claims him.) It was not until Jesus’ atonement, pure and undefiled, that the chance for Paradise was restored.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Not too Smart:

Some material on the Inquisition:

The Truth about the Spanish Inquisition
trosch.org/for/inquisition.html

The Truth about the Spanish Inquisition
catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0075.html

Spero News - A new look at the Spanish Inquisition

I think it should be noted that almost all suspects in the Inquisition had Legal Guarantees such as Trial by Jury, Assistance of Council & the Right to Confront their Accusers, and many people charged with Serious Civil Offenses (such as Robbery, Murder & Homicide) would “Blaspheme God” in order to be tried by the Courts of the Inquisition (rather than the Civil Courts where they had Few or NO Legal Guarantees).

I’m always amazed how Protestants who point to the Inquisition, avoid discussing The (Protestant) Witch Hunts (Additional links - The European Witch-Hunts (Gendercide Watch), Recent developments in the Study of the Great European Witch Hunt, & Absolute Astronomy - Witch-hunt) and the history of anti-Catholic Persecution & Bigotry in Great Britain, Northern Europe and even the USA (It was against the Law to be a Catholic in most of the American Colonies from 1620 to 1775).

I think the FACTS about the REAL Inquisition, where people had Rights such as Assistance of Counsel and the Right to Confront their Accusers, and where most of the people were neither tortured nor executed, will compare favorably with the Witch Trials in Northern Europe where Women were tortured unto confessions, convicted on the basis of those confessions and then “burned at the stake”, or jailed in absolutely deplorable conditions, or punished with what our framers rightly called “cruel and unusual punishments”.

I think it should be noted that the charity and decency of most of the Catholics here keeps them from responding to posts such as yours as I just did. But I felt an uncharitable and unedifying thread such as this merited a reminder that we all live in glass houses, and that none of us has the right to do as you did. I would hope that a reminder such as this would cause threads such as this never to be started, and that, once started, in the interests of charity, to be closed.

We have far more edifying things to discuss than this.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael

Thank you for a very good post,I have been waiting for some one to make a post like this but like NotTooSmart I am not that smart to do it my selh Thanks again and may Our Lord bless you

 

[ccolley2]

Hello All,

I don’t have a dog in this fight, for I visit the forum in search of truth and a better understanding of Christian beliefs.

Having read this thread, and the responses to NTS and Catholic to Protestant, Protestant to Catholic, why would I become a Christian?

Because even though we argue and disagree, we are seeking truth, and as Christians we are closer to truth than people who are non-Christians. The differences between Catholics and Protestants is razor thin, yet it is critical. As long as there are differences there will be conflict/arguments/debate.

Sorry for getting “off-topic” a bit.
CC

 

[robsully]

Hello PRmerger.

How am I guilty of anothers sin?

 

[PRmerger]

Hello PRmerger.

How am I guilty of anothers sin?

I don’t understand the question.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t understand the question.

Nevermind! I think I get what you’re asking. Adam and Eve, right?

Well, through Adam’s sin we lost sanctifying grace.

Kind of like we inherited some kind of “genetic defect”, or a defective nature in which we’re just not quite right.

Clearly, when you look at the world it’s quite evident that there’s something wrong with humanity. Wouldn’t you agree, rob?

Also, our wounded human nature is confirmed by our own experience, is it not, rob? Are you the person you want to be? As St. Paul says: For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

Why is that, rob? What is *your *explanation for how the world is? How is it that humanity is clearly not putting its best foot forward in your paradigm?