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Hiskid1973
Guest
Just a quick? Were the first 66 books put together by believers moved via the Holy Spirit put together by the small "c’’ catholic church or what we know today as the Roman catholic church ?
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Hiskid: The answer is: The 73 books of the Bible were determined as canon by members of the only CHRISTIAN CHURCH in existence in AD 380. . .That Church exists today in the Latin group (more colloquially if not perfectly correctly known as the “Roman Catholic” or 'big C" Catholic church) along with our brothers and sisters of the Orthodox Church.
There is no such thing as a ‘little c’ Catholic Church in the sense you appear to claim–IOW, there was no ‘invisible’ church which just 'happened to be ‘universal’ and whose members just ‘happened’ to also be a part of the Catholic Church at the time. . .
There is no such thing as a ‘little c’ Catholic Church in the sense you appear to claim–IOW, there was no ‘invisible’ church which just 'happened to be ‘universal’ and whose members just ‘happened’ to also be a part of the Catholic Church at the time. . .
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jmcrae
Guest
No. There was no “first 66 books.”
We started off with an Old Testament containing 46 books, which were the books found in the Scriptoria (basically, a holy library that you find in a synagogue) that were used by Jesus and the Apostles.
Later, after the destruction of the Temple, the Jews removed seven of the books from their Scriptoria, because they were too “Christian-like” - this became the Palestinian Canon, which is the 39 book Old Testament used by modern-day Jews and Protestants.
At some point shortly after 380 AD, Pope Damasus ordered St. Jerome to make a translation of the Old Testament into Latin, and to bind all of the books into one set of bindings, for use at Mass. He also realized that it would be good to have a translation of the New Testament done at the same time - however, there was no agreement in the Church about which books (if any) comprised the New Testament, despite hundreds of years of various Bishops trying to put one together, so, ultimately, three Councils, staffed with well-trusted Catholic Bishops (St. Augustine was actually one of them) were called, to settle this question once and for all.
Those three Councils discerned for two decades, and arrived at the 27-book New Testament that we all know and love today.
Once that was done, Pope Innocent I (Pope Damasus having died in the meantime) infallibly promulgated the canon of the New Testament to the whole Catholic Church, world-wide. St. Jerome then added these 27 books to his translation of the Bible, making a grand total of 73 books in the world’s first Bible.
It was not until some time in the early part of the 1700s that anyone started using the Palestinian (shorter) canon of the Old Testament in Christian Bibles. Of course the idea had been thought of many times before, and even St. Jerome had thought of it, but no one had ever actually done it, before that time.
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Bill_Pick
Guest
Please show me that the RCC was aroung in 400 or 500 Ad…I do not believe we had a RCC with 66 books
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jmcrae
Guest
We have had Popes beginning in 33 AD, and continuously since then, so yes, the Catholic Church was around in 400 AD, and in 500 AD, and at every time in between.
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Hiskid1973
Guest
I don’t know when the RCC started that’s why I ask the question…The sees we’re all together at one time…
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PRmerger
Guest
History tells us that it was Pope Damasus who commanded that the books known to be inspired by the Holy Spirit be gathered together into one codex and translated. (originally posted by jmcrae here)
It was the Catholic Bishops of the Councils of Rome, Carthage and Hippo who discerned which books those were.
At the Council of Rome in 382, the Church decided upon a canon of 46 Old Testament books and 27 in the New Testament. This decision was ratified by the councils at Hippo (393), Carthage (397, 419), II Nicea (787), Florence (1442), and Trent (1546). Source: here.
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jmcrae
Guest
The Catholic Church (aka the “RCC”) was founded by Jesus Christ in 33 AD. He gave the Keys to Peter (Matthew 16:18-19) and appointed him Chief Shepherd of the Church (John 21:15-19) - it is because he died in Rome that the Bishop of Rome is also the Pope. We have had a continuous line of Popes in Rome from the death of St. Peter until now, except for one point when the Papacy moved to Avignon for a short while, but it was moved back to Rome shortly afterwards.
The “RCC” was the only form of Christianity in existence until the East-West schism in the 1000s, and it was the only form of Christianity in existence in the West until the early 1500s, with the advent of Lutheranism, which then divided into a wide variety of different forms of Protestantism.
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Bill_Pick
Guest
The RCC did not get here untill about 1051 after the spilt,It was always called the Cathloic Church and then later called The RCC but it is the CC
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jmcrae
Guest
We have had Popes ever since 33 AD. It was the Eastern Orthodox that began to exist as an independent entity, without the Pope, in 1051.We did not only just start having Popes in 1051 AD.
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Bill_Pick
Guest
People keep telling me the Cathloic Church did give us the bible,so they may be right I think the books just fell out on the shy, Do you like that better then Getting them from a Cathloic Church,now we can all be happy
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jmcrae
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Bill_Pick
Guest
The Cathloic Church has 66 books in the Bible it was Luther Martin that omit 7 books
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jmcrae
Guest
No. The Catholic Church has 73 books in the Bible, and although Martin Luther thought of removing seven of them, he did not - someone else did that, in the early 1700s, leaving the Protestants with only 66 books in their Bible.
Ours (the Catholic one) has 73 books.
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Melkite_Sword
Guest
for your first question about the Catholic Church being around in 400 or 500 AD, I can assure you it was around much longer then that. Infact the first time the word ‘Catholic’ was used by anyone was by Ignatius of Antioch, bishop of Antioch and disciple of John the apostle AD 90-110. As for Catholic doctrines such as the Eucharist, the mass, Catholic mariology, praying to saints, praying for the dead, infant baptism etc… I suggest you read church history and the Fathers beginning with the Didache (60-90 AD) up to St Augustine in the 4th century. For your second question, the Catholic Church had 73 books until Martin Luther removed the deuterocanonical books, (old testament books written in Greek), he done this because the Jews took them out in 90 AD at the council of Jamnia, he believed that because they are Jewish scriptures the Jews must know best. The reason why the Jews took out those books is because the Greek language was viewed as somewhat unholy, it was the language of the Gentiles, as Christians we can’t apply this logic since our new testament is written in Greek. 1 Maccabees also supports the Catholic doctrine of purgatory and praying for the dead. Infact Luther wanted to remove books from the NT such as the epistle of James because it claims ‘we are not justified by faith alone’ contrary to sola fide. he also called this epistle an ‘epistle of straw’ for this reason. he wanted also to remove Jude, Hebrews, Revelation and I believe 1Timothy, yet the ‘protestants’ ‘protested’ once again, this time against Luther, because they didn’t want to ‘desecrate’ the New Testament. If you want proof of the Catholic canon in the early councils:
“A brief addition shows what books really are received in the canon. These are the things of which you desired to be informed verbally: of Moses, five books, that is, of Genesis, of Exodus, of Leviticus, of Numbers, of Deuteronomy, and Joshua, of Judges, one book, of Kings, four books, and also Ruth, of the prophets, sixteen books, of Solomon, five books, the Psalms. Likewise of the histories, Job, one book, of Tobit, one book, Esther, one, Judith, one, of the Maccabees, two, of Esdras, two, Paralipomenon, two books . . .” (Letters 7 [A.D. 408]).- Pope Innocent I
catholic.com/library/Old_Testament_Canon.asp for further reading
Also it is good to note that Wisdom 2:12-22 contains a prophesy of the life of Christ:
12 “Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training.
13 He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord.
14 He became to us a reproof of our thoughts;
15 the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange.
16 We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father.
17 Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life;
18 for if the righteous man is God’s son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries.
19 Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance.
20 Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected.”
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Mosacked
Guest
From what I know, the 7 books were ommitted because they couldn’t be traced back to the apostles and was found to be written around the Middle Ages (one of the most chaotic biblical era / times).
Secondly, some of the teachings in the apocrypha contracted with the foundational doctrines of the Bible. For example, according to the Bible, Jesus came to sacrifice Himself on the cross for the complete redemption of sins, however these books claim that you can also redeem yourselves with money$ and/or alms. There are others like ‘scaring away the devil with the smoke of the heart,liver or gall of a fish’ etc. Now how does that align with fighting the devil with Truth and Spirit?
Use your own judgement.
Secondly, some of the teachings in the apocrypha contracted with the foundational doctrines of the Bible. For example, according to the Bible, Jesus came to sacrifice Himself on the cross for the complete redemption of sins, however these books claim that you can also redeem yourselves with money$ and/or alms. There are others like ‘scaring away the devil with the smoke of the heart,liver or gall of a fish’ etc. Now how does that align with fighting the devil with Truth and Spirit?
Use your own judgement.
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Mosacked
Guest
GOD gave us the Bible, not any human and certainly not any institution or organisation.
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Melkite_Sword
Guest
Rubbish, all I can tell you is check your sources. These same 7 books are in the Eastern Orthodox Church canon which split in 1054 AD. They are also in the Coptic Orthodox Church canon which split in 451 AD, after the Council of Chalcedon. They are in every canon except the Protestant canon. Any self respecting Bible scholar wouldn’t date any of them after Christ.
Can you provide specific verses?
I believe your refering to the book of Tobit 6:1-8:
’ 1 Now as they proceeded on their way they came at evening to the Tigris river and camped there.
2 Then the young man went down to wash himself. A fish leaped up from the river and would have swallowed the young man; 3 and the angel said to him, “Catch the fish.” So the young man seized the fish and threw it up on the land. 4 Then the angel said to him, “Cut open the fish and take the heart and liver and gall and put them away safely.” 5 So the young man did as the angel told him; and they roasted and ate the fish. And they both continued on their way until they came near to Ecbatana. 6 Then the young man said to the angel, “Brother Azarias, of what use is the liver and heart and gall of the fish?”
7 He replied, “As for the heart and liver, if a demon or evil spirit gives trouble to any one, you make a smoke from these before the man or woman, and that person will never be troubled again. 8 And as for the gall, anoint with it a man who has white films in his eyes, and he will be cured.”
No problem here, what we have is spiritual benefits obtained by physical objects, like a sacramental or relic. This is in the non-deuterocanonical books aswell such as:
2 Kings 13:20-21 ,The use of the bones of Elisha brought a dead man to life: “So Elisha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year. And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet” .
people cured of evil spirits and diseases by Paul’s handkerchief and apron “And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them” (Acts 19:11-12)
the woman cured of a hemorrhage by touching the hem of Christ’s cloak (Matt. 9:20-22)
the sick who were healed when Peter’s shadow passed over them (Acts 5:14-16).
Peace
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Melkite_Sword
Guest
How?.. did it fall from the sky? how?
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Mosacked
Guest
I believe you ought to know your scripture better than myself. Anyway it is in 2 Maccabees 12:43-45.
As to your admission of the ‘relics’ you have given the answer.
The Bible was written by people who were inspired by God. And these landed in the hands of the Catholics…and subsequently passed onto what we have today…the Bible. Does that mean the catholic church gave us the Bible???
So, if I pass you a cake for my neighbor and while you were at it, you added some cream to it before passing it onto my neighbor…does that mean you gave the cake to the neighbor or I gave the cake to my neighbor? And does it mean he/she has no right to lay claim to the cake, but the cake belongs to you?
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