The Catholic church did not give us the Bible

[benidict]

I believe you ought to know your scripture better than myself. Anyway it is in 2 Maccabees 12:43-45.

As to your admission of the ‘relics’ you have given the answer.

The Bible was written by people who were inspired by God. And these landed in the hands of the Catholics…and subsequently passed onto what we have today…the Bible. Does that mean the catholic church gave us the Bible???

So, if I pass you a cake for my neighbor and while you were at it, you added some cream to it before passing it onto my neighbor…does that mean you gave the cake to the neighbor or I gave the cake to my neighbor? And does it mean he/she has no right to lay claim to the cake, but the cake belongs to you?

that depends, is the cake chocolate? if so yep its mine. all mine. cream and all. now if its any other kind of cake, such as as the incomplete recipe yall have you can have it.

 

[benidict]

I believe you ought to know your scripture better than myself. Anyway it is in 2 Maccabees 12:43-45.

As to your admission of the ‘relics’ you have given the answer.

The Bible was written by people who were inspired by God. And these landed in the hands of the Catholics…and subsequently passed onto what we have today…the Bible. Does that mean the catholic church gave us the Bible???

So, if I pass you a cake for my neighbor and while you were at it, you added some cream to it before passing it onto my neighbor…does that mean you gave the cake to the neighbor or I gave the cake to my neighbor? And does it mean he/she has no right to lay claim to the cake, but the cake belongs to you?

are you familiar with st. jerome?

 

[benidict]

I believe you ought to know your scripture better than myself. Anyway it is in 2 Maccabees 12:43-45.

As to your admission of the ‘relics’ you have given the answer.

The Bible was written by people who were inspired by God. And these landed in the hands of the Catholics…and subsequently passed onto what we have today…the Bible. Does that mean the catholic church gave us the Bible???

So, if I pass you a cake for my neighbor and while you were at it, you added some cream to it before passing it onto my neighbor…does that mean you gave the cake to the neighbor or I gave the cake to my neighbor? And does it mean he/she has no right to lay claim to the cake, but the cake belongs to you?

well now mosacked. re read 2 maccabees 12:43-45 please and you will see the money was sent to pay for the sacrifice on behalf of the dead. thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection. this has to do with praying for our deceased loved ones and others not alms and salvation. also i would suggest you study the rabbinical sages, they also talk about prayers for the dead in the talmud etc. have you ever even studied any other writings than what is given you by your fellowship or church? expand your horizens. this was a common enough practice in judaism, at that time, and it has been carried on by the Church. God bless you and yours.

 

[Mosacked]

are you familiar with st. jerome?

1 John 2:26-28 (King James Version)

26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

 

[benidict]

1 John 2:26-28 (King James Version)

26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

apparently you have not. too bad. you really are impoverished when it comes to Church history. glad your back though, thought you had abandoned me.

 

[ConfusedTim]

I believe you ought to know your scripture better than myself. Anyway it is in 2 Maccabees 12:43-45.

As to your admission of the ‘relics’ you have given the answer.

The Bible was written by people who were inspired by God. And these landed in the hands of the Catholics…and subsequently passed onto what we have today…the Bible. Does that mean the catholic church gave us the Bible???

So, if I pass you a cake for my neighbor and while you were at it, you added some cream to it before passing it onto my neighbor…does that mean you gave the cake to the neighbor or I gave the cake to my neighbor? And does it mean he/she has no right to lay claim to the cake, but the cake belongs to you?

Dont you realise that there were hundreds of scriptures that dated back to the time of Jesus and some group had to determine what was the inspired word of God. There was no table of contents. Each writing had to be viewed individually and collectively to ensure that it both fitted with the tradition (verbal teaching of the church) and with each of the other scriptures. If you dont think it was the Catholic church that was doing this who was it?

 

[benedictus2]

Just a quick? Were the first 66 books put together by believers moved via the Holy Spirit put together by the small "c’’ catholic church or what we know today as the Roman catholic church ?

No. There was no such thing as the first 66 books.

The canon as the Catholic Church has it is the true canon (established from the council of Carthage. Luther however created a canon within a canon because he had an agenda.

Below is the timeline of How the Bible came to us form this link :
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/timeline_of_how_the_bible_where.htm

And no there is not such thing as a small “c” Catholic Church. From Pentecost there was only once Church, the Catholic Church. Then the rebellion by Luther, Calvin, Henry VIII happened and so we ended up with a multitude of Churches. Not exactly what Christ willed. Christ built only one church and to this day that Church exists and remains faithful to her Head.

Date

Event**AD **

51-125

The New Testament books are written.140

Marcion, a businessman in Rome, taught that there were two Gods: Yahweh, the cruel God of the Old Testament, and Abba, the kind father of the New Testament. Marcion eliminated the Old Testament as scriptures and, since he was anti-Semitic, kept from the New Testament only 10 letters of Paul and 2/3 of Luke’s gospel (he deleted references to Jesus’s Jewishness). Marcion’s “New Testament”, the first to be compiled, forced the mainstream Church to decide on a core canon: the four Gospels and Letters of Paul. 200

The periphery of the canon is not yet determined. According to one list, compiled at Rome c. AD 200 (the Muratorian Canon), the NT consists of the 4 gospels; Acts; 13 letters of Paul (Hebrews is not included); 3 of the 7 General Epistles (1-2 John and Jude); and also the Apocalypse of Peter. 367

The earliest extant list of the books of the NT, in exactly the number and order in which we presently have them, is written by Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, in his Festal letter # 39 of 367 A.D… 382

Council of Rome (whereby Pope Damasus started the ball rolling for the defining of a universal canon for all city-churches). Listed the New Testament books in their present number and order. 393

the Council of Hippo, which began “arguing it out.” Canon proposed by Bishop Athanasius.397

The Council of Carthage, which refined the canon for the Western Church, sending it back to Pope Innocent for ratification. In the East, the canonical process was hampered by a number of schisms (esp. within the Church of Antioch). However, this changed by …AD787

The Ecumenical Council of Nicaea II, which adopted the canon of Carthage. At this point, both the Latin West and the Greek / Byzantine East had the same canon. However, … The non-Greek, Monophysite and Nestorian Churches of the East (the Copts, the Ethiopians, the Syrians, the Armenians, the Syro-Malankars, the Chaldeans, and the Malabars) were still left out. But these Churches came together in agreement, in 1442A.D., in Florence.1442

AD : At the Council of Florence, the entire Church recognized the 27 books. This council confirmed the Roman Catholic Canon of the Bible which Pope Damasus I had published a thousand years earlier. So, by 1439, all orthodox branches of the Church were legally bound to the same canon. This is 100 years before the Reformation.1536

In his translation of the Bible from Greek into German, Luther removed 4 N.T. books (Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation) and placed them in an appendix saying they were less than canonical. 1546

At the Council of Trent, the Catholic Church reaffirmed once and for all the full list of 27 books. The council also confirmed the inclusion of the Deuterocanonical books which had been a part of the Bible canon since the early Church and was confirmed at the councils of 393 AD, 373, 787 and 1442 AD. At Trent Rome actually dogmatized the canon, making it more than a matter of canon law, which had been the case up to that point, closing it for good.

 

[benedictus2]

The Bible was written by people who were inspired by God. And these landed in the hands of the Catholics…and subsequently passed onto what we have today…the Bible. Does that mean the catholic church gave us the Bible???

I have just posted the timeline of the Bible in my previous post.

Concerning your post that it was written by people who were inspired by God, how do you know that for a fact? Who determined whether they were inspired or not? By what authority did these “determiners” of the canon go?

So, if I pass you a cake for my neighbor and while you were at it, you added some cream to it before passing it onto my neighbor…does that mean you gave the cake to the neighbor or I gave the cake to my neighbor?

Bad analogy. It is more a case of : If I made a cake and you gave that to the neighbour the fact remains that** I baked that cake**.** If it weren’t for me you would not have a cake to give to the neighbour.**

Furthermore, what you did was cut off pieces of that cake and throw it out, instead of giving the neighbour the entire cake. To make matters worse, you did not tell your neighbour that you did not bake the cake in the first place.

You were merely a mail carrier, you did not write the letter .

And does it mean he/she has no right to lay claim to the cake, but the cake belongs to you?

No, we are saying she can partake of the cake, but get the facts straight. We baked it. So the nourishment she is getting came from our efforts. But yes you almost did a marvelous delivery job, but you should not have cut off some labeling it no good when you have no way of knowing whether those bits are really no good or not.

 

[Melkite_Sword]

I believe you ought to know your scripture better than myself. Anyway it is in 2 Maccabees 12:43-45.

As to your admission of the ‘relics’ you have given the answer.

The Bible was written by people who were inspired by God. And these landed in the hands of the Catholics…and subsequently passed onto what we have today…the Bible. Does that mean the catholic church gave us the Bible???

So, if I pass you a cake for my neighbor and while you were at it, you added some cream to it before passing it onto my neighbor…does that mean you gave the cake to the neighbor or I gave the cake to my neighbor? And does it mean he/she has no right to lay claim to the cake, but the cake belongs to you?

Yes, I do know my scripture better than you know mine… thats why I was scratching my head at the comment that people payed for redemption somewhere in the Deuterocanon. 2 Maccabees 12:43-45 is refering to donations made in order to do sacrifices on behalf of the dead, not paying to be redeemed.

I don’t see how saying its like a relic means anything. Acts 19:11-12 also has physical objects giving spiritual benefits (expeling demons and healing the sick)

As for the canon. God gave the Bible through the Catholic Church. In the 4th century councils. Its not a matter of the canon falling into the hands of the Catholics. The Catholic Church actually chose the inspired books under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, guided by Apostolic tradition, primarily from the apostolic Fathers (although there were disagreements on certain books by the Fathers). The Bible has no divinely inspired index that lists the word of God, thus an external body of people chosen by God must have put it together.

Peace

 

[izoid]

1 John 2:26-28 (King James Version)

26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

What do you do with 2 THES 2:15?

15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by **word of mouth **or by letter from us.

 

[crazzeto]

…unless you also want to say that the Catholic church gave us the inquisition and the priest sex abuse scandals.

The point being that you can not take credit for the positive while at the same time pass the buck on the negative. A little consistency on this please.

You can’t try airing the dirty laundry of the Catholic church, with out acknowleging the very same problems exist (possibly to greater extent) with in the Protestant world. In fact, in ALL faith groups. There’s been an ongoing Jewish Orthodox Scandle for the past several years in fact, that simply hasn’t been reported in main stream presses (just Jewish pressed, but it’s easy to find with google). So yes, the Catholic Church brought you the bible. Deal with it.

 

[Mosacked]

What do you do with 2 THES 2:15?

15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by **word of mouth **or by letter from us.

Who teaches these people who wrote the letter?

There is only ONE teacher, the Holy Ghost. The apostles are taught personally by Jesus and passes the message/instructions onto us by letters.

But if a man is with God (has the Holy Ghost) then of what things can you teach him?

God teaches His people Himself through the Counsellor, personally.

Of course, there are some who think they know and wants to teach others, then let him prove himself by the words he speak. Did not even some try to exorcise evil spirits in the name of the apostles? What happened? The evil spirits knew they were fake, but as humans, how do we tell if these are fake???

THAT’s why Jesus said “My Sheep Hear My Voice”
.

 

[Mosacked]

I have just posted the timeline of the Bible in my previous post.

Concerning your post that it was written by people who were inspired by God, how do you know that for a fact? Who determined whether they were inspired or not? By what authority did these “determiners” of the canon go?

Bad analogy. It is more a case of : If I made a cake and you gave that to the neighbour the fact remains that** I baked that cake**.** If it weren’t for me you would not have a cake to give to the neighbour.**

Furthermore, what you did was cut off pieces of that cake and throw it out, instead of giving the neighbour the entire cake. To make matters worse, you did not tell your neighbour that you did not bake the cake in the first place.

You were merely a mail carrier, you did not write the letter .

No, we are saying she can partake of the cake, but get the facts straight. We baked it. So the nourishment she is getting came from our efforts. But yes you almost did a marvelous delivery job, but you should not have cut off some labeling it no good when you have no way of knowing whether those bits are really no good or not.

So, are you claiming that you wrote the Bible and not God?

If you are not, then what are you attempting to show? That because of the Catholics the world has the Bible? Try telling that to God in His face and see what you get. .

If a kid walks up to a man (a professional diver himself) to tell him, thanks to ME your children are saved because I passed them the life-buoy from your ship. That buoy was brought to them by ME.

• Are you so foolish to think that you can give of the Bible or deprive others of it, or think that without the Catholics, God would not be able to pass the Bible to the masses???

By your statement you show your SIN.
.

 

[Deconi]

So, are you claiming that you wrote the Bible and not God?

If you are not, then what are you attempting to show? That because of the Catholics the world has the Bible? Try telling that to God in His face and see what you get. .

If a kid walks up to a man (a professional diver himself) to tell him, thanks to ME your children are saved because I passed them the life-buoy from your ship. That buoy was brought to them by ME.

• Are you so foolish to think that you can give of the Bible or deprive others of it, or think that without the Catholics, God would not be able to pass the Bible to the masses???

By your statement you show your SIN.
.

The claim is The Church GAVE you the Bible; that is, through The Catholic Church, God gave the Bible for the world. That is how you come to have one, as defunct a version as it is.

Without The Catholic Church, individuals have a tendency to edit, amend, disect and rewrite Holy Writ to suit themselves, or what they want The Book to say!

That is where you come in!

It seems your evasiveness is as deliberate as the actions of those responsible for the version of Scriptures you have.

 

[Mosacked]

The claim is The Church GAVE you the Bible; that is, through The Catholic Church, God gave the Bible for the world. That is how you come to have one, as defunct a version as it is.

Without The Catholic Church, individuals have a tendency to edit, amend, disect and rewrite Holy Writ to suit themselves, or what they want The Book to say!

That is where you come in!

It seems your evasiveness is as deliberate as the actions of those responsible for the version of Scriptures you have.

Did not the Romans instil in many the symbol of the cross by putting Christ on it? So, are we to THANK the Romans for crucifying Jesus and helping us redeem ourselves through the crucifixion??

I think you are getting your priorities reversed.

God’s will must be done, whether it is by you or by your enemies. It is totally nonsensical to claim credit for a book written by God Himself.

“Whoever is not against you is for you”.

.

 

[benedictus2]

**So, are you claiming that you wrote the Bible and not God? **

Duh! And where did I say that?

If you are not, then what are you attempting to show? That because of the Catholics the world has the Bible? Try telling that to God in His face and see what you get. .

Well how about this. That God (yes God) established the Catholic Church and WILLED that the Bible be written within her.
REMEMBER: Jesus did not write a book. Jesus established a Church. The Catholic Church.

If a kid walks up to a man (a professional diver himself) to tell him, thanks to ME your children are saved because I passed them the life-buoy from your ship. That buoy was brought to them by ME.

Indeed. But the point is who made the bouy so that you can have a bouy to save the child with?

So you say God made the bouy. Fair enough. But the bouy did not drop from the sky. God used people to make that bouy.

As I said before, you my dear are just a mail carrier. Through God’s inspiration, the Catholic Church wrote the letter.

• Are you so foolish to think that you can give of the Bible or deprive others of it,

But again, that is the whole point. We did not deprive you of it. That is precisely why you have the Bible.

or think that without the Catholics, God would not be able to pass the Bible to the masses???

Well no. But like it or not, that is HOW GOD CHOSE TO DO IT. That is His will. If He so willed, Jesus could have come, sat down to write everything and just left us a book. But that was not His WILL. What He WILLED is a Church.

So you have an issue with the way went about writing the Bible. Take it up with Him. I am sure He will listen to you and enlighten you if you pray about it. Tell Him you have a problem with the way He went about to get His Word written out.

By your statement you show your SIN. .

Nope no sin. But by your response you show your ignorance. And a failure to comprehend.

 

[benedictus2]

Did not the Romans instil in many the symbol of the cross by putting Christ on it? So, are we to THANK the Romans for crucifying Jesus and helping us redeem ourselves through the crucifixion??

Maan you are so fond of this ridiculous analogies. Jesus said Pilate did not have any power over Jesus other than that which the Father gave Pilate. God WILLED it this way. If He so desired He could save us another way because He is omnipotent.

I think you are getting your priorities reversed.

I think you are completely missing the point.

God’s will must be done, whether it is by you or by your enemies. It is totally nonsensical to claim credit for a book written by God Himself.

Exactly! God’s WILL must be done. And what is HIS WILL? To cause the Bible to be written within HIS Church, the Catholic Church.

“Whoever is not against you is for you”. .

And what does this quote have to do with anything we have discussed?

 

[Mosacked]

Duh! And where did I say that?

Well how about this. That God (yes God) established the Catholic Church and WILLED that the Bible be written within her.
REMEMBER: Jesus did not write a book. Jesus established a Church. The Catholic Church.

Indeed. But the point is who made the bouy so that you can have a bouy to save the child with?

So you say God made the bouy. Fair enough. But the bouy did not drop from the sky. God used people to make that bouy.

As I said before, you my dear are just a mail carrier. Through God’s inspiration, the Catholic Church wrote the letter.

But again, that is the whole point. We did not deprive you of it. That is precisely why you have the Bible.

Well no. But like it or not, that is HOW GOD CHOSE TO DO IT. That is His will. If He so willed, Jesus could have come, sat down to write everything and just left us a book. But that was not His WILL. What He WILLED is a Church.

So you have an issue with the way went about writing the Bible. Take it up with Him. I am sure He will listen to you and enlighten you if you pray about it. Tell Him you have a problem with the way He went about to get His Word written out.

Nope no sin. But by your response you show your ignorance. And a failure to comprehend.

Huh? The Catholic Church wrote the letter? You mean the Bible was written by the catholic church?

That would be outrageous wouldn’t it? Where did Marcion get his NT from? And if so, from where did Jerome translate the Latin Vulgate, his pocket?

What is undeniable is that these scriptures ALREADY existed before even Catholicism came into being. You could claim that Catholics helped to compile these, specifically Jerome. Compiling is NOT Authoring.

Anyone can also say that Peter passed the appointment to him/her to establish the ABC church…what’s to prove him wrong??? Can you prove him wrong??? Unless you wake Peter up from his slumber and ask him ‘hey, did you pick this fella?’.

.

 

[benedictus2]

Deconi, I love your signature.

" All matter have mass?! The universe is catholic?! "

 

[Mosacked]

Maan you are so fond of this ridiculous analogies. Jesus said Pilate did not have any power over Jesus other than that which the Father gave Pilate. God WILLED it this way. If He so desired He could save us another way because He is omnipotent.

I think you are completely missing the point.

Exactly! God’s WILL must be done. And what is HIS WILL? To cause the Bible to be written within HIS Church, the Catholic Church.

And what does this quote have to do with anything we have discussed?

Yes, if He so desired, He could have passed the Bible to us through the Communists. I mean you are using double standards here. On the one hand you agree that Jesus could have been crucified by others, but yet you deny that the Bible could also have been passed on by non-catholics.

You must first QUALIFY that this is indeed His church before you jump on the wagon. Of course you firmly believe in that…but let me tell you…the muslims too believe that muhammad despite his ‘crimes’ was god-sent even though we know it isn’t…and that’s why they believe in his quran.

BUT…is he even god-sent??? If you stand on a wrong premise/assumption (maybe to you its not), then all your arguments are flawed.

.