The Catholic church did not give us the Bible

[jmcrae]

You seem to think that sarcasism is an acceptable substitute for evidence…

Let’s pretend that every Christian from India to England before 393 was officially registered in a congregation legally affiliated with The Catholic Church and accepted with docility all 2,875 points of the Catholic Catechism. Okay. Even if ALL of them believed that the world was flat, that would NOT mean that The Catholic Church made the world flat. You’d simply have a wide-spread opinion.

Up until it was infallibly promulgated by Pope Innocent I in 405 AD, you could have referred to it as a “widespread opinion,” and even Bishops were free to disagree with it. Once it was promulgated infallibly, it was no longer permissible to disagree with it - it was an official teaching of the Church, from that point onward.

The claim is NOT that “Catholics gave us the Bible” (which of course would require that Moses be a member of a congregation legally affiated with The Catholic Church and docilicly affirming all 2,875 points of the Catechism), but that The Catholic Church did.

“The Bible” is the collection of 73 books (including the five Books of Moses) bound into a single volume, translated into a commonly understood language. The first one came into existence in the early 400s AD, when St. Jerome (a Catholic priest acting under orders from the Pope) produced it. Moses did not have “the Bible” and in fact, he had absolutely nothing in writing at all, apart from whatever he wrote himself, together with the tablets of the Ten Commandments. He wasn’t going down to his local Bible Society to read how the ending was going to turn out.

 

[AmericanJosiah]

Did I even say such a thing? No. Moses was appointed by God to lead Israel.

… and yet you insist that THE CATHOLIC CHURCH gave us the Bible…

They were acting on behalf of the Church

There’s zero evidence that they were making an official positional statement of The Catholic Church. And if they were, then The Catholic Church had several different positions. In those statements, they never even mentioned The Catholic Church, much less, “On behalf of The Catholic Church, as an official statment of such, I hereby declare…” Nope. No mention of The Catholic Church at all in this context.

That’s true, but the United States of America can also act as an entity in and of itself - for example, it can go to war with Iraq. We say “America is at war with Iraq” because this is an official act of the American government,

Right. Having six US citizens saying, “we should go to war with Iraq” does NOT mean that THEREFORE the United States of America was declaring war with Iraq. Even if those 6 citizens are US senators. It takes an official act of government. You cannot say that the opinion of 6 Americans is The official position of The United States of America. For the claim to hold, we need to see that The Catholic Church gave us the Bible: the Ten Commandments on Mt. Sinai through John’s writings on the isle of Patmos. Now, IF you want to claim that Moses and all the other’s were officially registered in congregations legally affiliated with The Catholic Church - we can explore that, but that’s moot to the issue. The claim is not that CATHOLICS gave us the bible, the claim is that The Catholic Church did. An American came up with the theory of relativty, The United States of America did not. Apples and oranges.

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[Bill_Pick]

18 “All power”… See here the warrant and commission of the apostles and their successors, the bishops and pastors of Christ’s church. He received from his Father all power in heaven and in earth: and in virtue of this power, he sends them (even as his Father sent him, St. John 20. 21) to teach and disciple, not one, but all nations; and instruct them in all truths: and that he may assist them effectually in the execution of this commission, he promises to be with them, not for three or four hundred years only, but all days, even to the consummation of the world. How then could the Catholic Church ever go astray; having always with her pastors, as is here promised, Christ himself, who is the way, the truth, and the life. St. John 14.

 

[AmericanJosiah]

Up until it was infallibly promulgated by Pope Innocent I in 405 AD, you could have referred to it as a “widespread opinion,” and even Bishops were free to disagree with it. Once it was promulgated infallibly, it was no longer permissible to disagree with it - it was an official teaching of the Church, from that point onward.

Since Pope Innocent did nothing more than acknowledge what was already given, then he didn’t “give” anything.

It could be that at the Council of Trent, the issue was “sealed” by that singular denomination. But that’s entirely moot to the issue of this thread. Most denominations have had some official meeting at which they officially acknowledged the books of Scripture. That’s an entirely different issue than forming that list.

Moses did not have “the Bible”

No, but he comes down the mountain with the first part of it, some 1400 BC. If The Catholic Church “gave us the Bible” then it must have given us that, too. Or the claim doesn’t hold…

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[Hiskid1973]

Okay.

BTW: I recognize your screen name from another forum. Do you belong to another forum?

Christian Forums…CF

 

[jmcrae]

There’s zero evidence that they were making an official positional statement of The Catholic Church.

Once again, you are reading with your eyes closed. Do you even own the book at all, or are you being given these quotes by someone else, without the original surrounding text?

It was a Council of the Catholic Church, with Catholic Bishops in it.

Right. Having six US citizens saying, “we should go to war with Iraq” does NOT mean that THEREFORE the United States of America was declaring war with Iraq. Even if those 6 citizens are US senators. It takes an official act of government.

Exactly. When they were just giving their opinions, they were just opinions. When they formed the Council, they were speaking on behalf of their Dioceses. When the Pope promulgated their findings infallibly to the whole Church, it became a Dogma of the Church (hence “Sources of Catholic Dogma” being the title of the book where we find this information).

You cannot say that the opinion of 6 Americans is The official position of The United States of America. For the claim to hold, we need to see that The Catholic Church gave us the Bible: the Ten Commandments on Mt. Sinai through John’s writings on the isle of Patmos. Now, IF you want to claim that Moses and all the other’s were officially registered in congregations legally affiliated with The Catholic Church - we can explore that, but that’s moot to the issue.

There are actually people who would argue that Moses was a Catholic (and it’s certainly true that he has become a Catholic now that he is in Heaven) but why is it necessary that he have been a Catholic, in order for his writings to have been included by the Catholic Church in its Bible?

The claim is not that CATHOLICS gave us the bible, the claim is that The Catholic Church did.

By an official act of the Pope on behalf of the whole Church - yes.

An American came up with the theory of relativity,

Actually, I think he was a German refugee.

The United States of America did not.

But the United States of America, (that is, the American government acting on behalf of the American people) made use of it to create the atomic bomb. Einstein discovered the Theory of Relativity, and from it. America made the atomic bomb.

Moses wrote the Book of Genesis, and the Catholic Church used it to assemble the Bible.

 

[jmcrae]

No, but he comes down the mountain with the first part of it, some 1400 BC. If The Catholic Church “gave us the Bible” then it must have given us that, too. Or the claim doesn’t hold…

If the Catholic Church hadn’t put it into the Bible, then it wouldn’t be in there. You’ll notice that we didn’t put the Epic of Gilgamesh in there, and, hey, it’s not in there. But we aren’t talking about the canon of the Old Testament, anyway.

 

[Javl]

AmericanJosiah:

You still don’t get it, do you? The Bible is a collection of books of Scripture. It consists of the books that were recognized, and used, by the Jews and those that were considered as inspired of God in telling the story of Jesus Christ ( the 4 Gospels ), plus the epistles of the Apostles. The Bishops of the Catholic Church ( the word Catholic Church was in use in the second century ), in council assembled the books under the guidance of the Holy Spirit to determine the spurious and false writings so prevelant at the time. The result was what we refer to as the Bible today. Since the Bishops were Catholic and under the auspices of the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church has the right to say that it gave us the Bible. It is Catholic in origin. It was not miraculously put to gether. Now do you get it???

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Mosacked]

AmericanJosiah:

You still don’t get it, do you? The Bible is a collection of books of Scripture. It consists of the books that were recognized, and used, by the Jews and those that were considered as inspired of God in telling the story of Jesus Christ ( the 4 Gospels ), plus the epistles of the Apostles. The Bishops of the Catholic Church ( the word Catholic Church was in use in the second century ), in council assembled the books under the guidance of the Holy Spirit to determine the spurious and false writings so prevelant at the time. The result was what we refer to as the Bible today. Since the Bishops were Catholic and under the auspices of the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church has the right to say that it gave us the Bible. It is Catholic in origin. It was not miraculously put to gether. Now do you get it???

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Javl,

The Bible came from God. Not from any human, even the human writers (eg. the apostles) themselves were not authors, much less the Catholics.

Secondly, I think the problem is the non-catholics do not believe in history and/or tradition. They only believe in the Bible. Period.

So, while the non-catholics rely ONLY on the Bible, the catholics rely on their own tradition/history. That’s the problem. Should we go beyond the Bible and accept catholic tradition/history? Or should we just stick to the Bible?

Once you cross that divide, you’ll be in a different camp.

.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Javl,

The Bible came from God. Not from any human, even the human writers (eg. the apostles) themselves were not authors, much less the Catholics.

Secondly, I think the problem is the non-catholics do not believe in history and/or tradition. The only believe in the Bible. Period.

.

Yes the Bible came from God but God decreed that human writers do it. Therefore, it is not a stretch to say that God would use humans, inspired by the Holy Spirit, to declare canon, and these humans belonged to the Catholic Church.

Did God incarnate Himself a second time and write it? Not to mention all those others instances in Scripture where the writers themselves are referred to, say like the prologue in the Gospel of St. Luke…

 

[Mosacked]

Yes the Bible came from God but God decreed that human writers do it. Therefore, it is not a stretch to say that God would use humans, inspired by the Holy Spirit, to declare canon, and these humans belonged to the Catholic Church.

Did God incarnate Himself a second time and write it? Not to mention all those others instances in Scripture where the writers themselves are referred to, say like the prologue in the Gospel of St. Luke…

Why stretch it when it sternly warned us not to?

Revelation 22:18 I testify to everyone who hears the prophetic words of this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book.

 

[PRmerger]

So, while the non-catholics rely ONLY on the Bible,

That’s not quite true, Mosacked. There’s nothing in the Bible that says what books are to be contained in it. For that you need Tradition.

 

[Mosacked]

That’s not quite true, Mosacked. There’s nothing in the Bible that says what books are to be contained in it. For that you need Tradition.

If one truly believes the Bible to be God-inspired and that God has a hand in the provision of it across for all of mankind, then there should be no doubt when God says not to meddle with it any more. Tradition or not.

**
Revelation 22:18 I testify to everyone who hears the prophetic words of this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book.**

.

 

[PRmerger]

If one truly believes the Bible to be God-inspired and that God has a hand in the provision of it across for all of mankind, then there should be no doubt when God says not to meddle with it any more. Tradition or not.

**
Revelation 22:18 I testify to everyone who hears the prophetic words of this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book.**

Amen to that Mosacked!

However, that’s a nonsequitor.

You still do not believe in ONLY the Bible. You accept Sacred Tradition’s teaching of what is inspired and what is not.

Unless you can quote us chapter and verse that says what books belong in the Bible?

 

[Mosacked]

Amen to that Mosacked!

However, that’s a nonsequitor.

You still do not believe in ONLY the Bible. You accept Sacred Tradition’s teaching of what is inspired and what is not.

Unless you can quote us chapter and verse that says what books belong in the Bible?

Like I said before, the Bible is authored by God, not anyone else. We humans are mere vessels. If we are to listen to God, then we should listen to what God wrote INSIDE of it, and not what some vessels performed during the conveyance of the message.

1 John 2:27 The anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you don’t need anyone to teach you. Instead, His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie; just as it has taught you, remain in Him.

.

 

[PRmerger]

Like I said before, the Bible is authored by God, not anyone else. We humans are mere vessels. If we are to listen to God, then we should listen to what God wrote INSIDE of it, and not what some vessels performed during the conveyance of the message.

1 John 2:27 The anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you don’t need anyone to teach you. Instead, His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie; just as it has taught you, remain in Him.

Amen!

You still have gone outside of Scripture to get your beliefs, though.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Since the Bible never gave a ‘table of contents’ to list what should be included in the Bible, one must go ‘outside the Bible’ to know what belongs ‘in’ the Bible.

The idea that we ‘vessels’ need to listen to God in order to know that He will give us a Bible and communicate to us what needs to go in is --you guessed it–outside the Bible. (Remember, Scripture says the apostles were told by Jesus to ‘preach the gospel’, not 'sit down with these writings from the Jewish tradition, include the gospels that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are going to write, and these particular letters from Paul, Peter, James and Jude. . .but NOT these other ones. . .and not the gospels of Thomas, and only the LETTER of James, not the Protoevangelium, not the Didache. . "

The fact that you are willing to accept that God communicated that we were to bring together the Bible is --extra Biblical. To accept it you are accepting oral tradition.

I’m still waiting for you to answer the other poster. . .if ‘everything’ is there in the Bible, where in the bible did it list what was to BE in the Bible?

 

[Anna_Scott]

Why stretch it when it sternly warned us not to?

Revelation 22:18 I testify to everyone who hears the prophetic words of this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book.

If one truly believes the Bible to be God-inspired and that God has a hand in the provision of it across for all of mankind, then there should be no doubt when God says not to meddle with it any more. Tradition or not.**

Revelation 22:18 I testify to everyone who hears the prophetic words of this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book.**

We’re “cherry picking” again. So, I’ll pick a few more cherries.

I don’t think you can use Revelation as an argument against Catechism/ECF, etc.–if that is your intention.

Have you forgotten about the verses quoted, below? We received more instructions, even from Christ Himself, since Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy 4 (ESV): 1"And now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the rules that I am teaching you, and do them, that you may live, and go in and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. 2 You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you. 3Your eyes have seen what the LORD did at Baal-peor, for the LORD your God destroyed from among you all the men who followed the Baal of Peor.

Deuteronomy 12: 32 "Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.

**Proverbs 30: ** 5 Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. 6 Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.

I have to ask: how much study have you done regarding the transmission of Scripture?

You do realize that the messages contained in written Scripture were transmitted orally, often long before making it to the written page, right?

Anna

 

[Mosacked]

Since the Bible never gave a ‘table of contents’ to list what should be included in the Bible, one must go ‘outside the Bible’ to know what belongs ‘in’ the Bible.

The idea that we ‘vessels’ need to listen to God in order to know that He will give us a Bible and communicate to us what needs to go in is --you guessed it–outside the Bible. (Remember, Scripture says the apostles were told by Jesus to ‘preach the gospel’, not 'sit down with these writings from the Jewish tradition, include the gospels that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are going to write, and these particular letters from Paul, Peter, James and Jude. . .but NOT these other ones. . .and not the gospels of Thomas, and only the LETTER of James, not the Protoevangelium, not the Didache. . "

The fact that you are willing to accept that God communicated that we were to bring together the Bible is --extra Biblical. To accept it you are accepting oral tradition.

I’m still waiting for you to answer the other poster. . .if ‘everything’ is there in the Bible, where in the bible did it list what was to BE in the Bible?

And the difference between us is I take God at His word and believe Him when He said I don’t need anyone else to teach me. U want to believe tradition and history thats up to you.

 

[Mosacked]

We’re “cherry picking” again. So, I’ll pick a few more cherries.

I don’t think you can use Revelation as an argument against Catechism/ECF, etc.–if that is your intention.

Have you forgotten about the verses quoted, below? We received more instructions, even from Christ Himself, since Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy 4 (ESV): 1"And now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the rules that I am teaching you, and do them, that you may live, and go in and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. 2 You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you. 3Your eyes have seen what the LORD did at Baal-peor, for the LORD your God destroyed from among you all the men who followed the Baal of Peor.

Deuteronomy 12: 32 "Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.

**Proverbs 30: ** 5 Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. 6 Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.

I have to ask: how much study have you done regarding the transmission of Scripture?

You do realize that the messages contained in written Scripture were transmitted orally, often long before making it to the written page, right?

Anna

And I thank God for putting these down in scripture and teaching me HIMSELF as He hath promised. Amen.