The Catholic church did not give us the Bible

[Tantum_ergo]

Even if Josiah meant ‘the see of Rome alone’ and was trying to argue that there were all the ‘other’ sees involved and not ‘just’ Rome, he’s all wet. the Catholic Church is not now and **never was ***limited *to the see of Rome ALONE. So arguing that because he (falsely) claims that the Catholic Church today is only that ‘see of Rome’ and cannot ‘claim’ to have been involved in the canon is really specious reasoning.

 

[Javl]

Yes.

I have no idea of whom you speak, but I simply wish to note what history does: Obviously, The Catholic Church had nothing to do with it. Scripture in some cases was accepted as such as much as one thousand, four hundred years before even The Catholic Church itself claims to have come into existence; the claim is simply baseless.

Without a doubt, The Catholic Church eventually did what most denominations have done: embraced the canon of books in some official manner. But acknowledging is not the same as forming or choosing or giving. And I don’t doubt that there may have been a Catholic involved in the process of choosing, but having a Catholic involved doesn’t make it an action of The Catholic Church anymore than having a Baptist go to the Moon means that The Baptist Church went to the Moon or that The Baptist Chruch gave us the Moon.

Now, if you have solid history to say that the Israelites accepted The Ten Commandments because The Catholic Church told them such was Scripture - then I’ll reconsider my position. If you can tell me that when Jesus said “Scripture” as He did over 20 times, He did so as an employee of The Catholic Church simply stating what The Catholic Church had authorized Him to say, then I think you’ll have a point. But I see NOTHING in history that supports that The Catholic Church “gave us” the Bible. Or even had a THING to do with it…

Josiah…wake up and smell the coffee! The canon of Jewish scripture ( Tanakh ) was formalized many years before Jesus. Jesus could not refer to the New Testament because there was none. Obeying His command to “Go forth and teach all Nations” all oral traditions and teachings were put in writing. These writings ( NT ) were done well after Jesus had gone. Since at the time all the different Churches were in communion with one another they comprised ONE Church . Also at the time there were many different stories and documents circulating among the Churches. Many of which were false and/or heretical. The Bishops assembled together to determine which was true and which wasn’t. Also, at the time ( approximately the second century ) the term Catholic was used to describe the Church, all these Bishops were Catholic! They included only the first five books of the Tanakh and the four Gospels and did not include anything else. In the time between that meeting and the First Council other letters and epistles were added. It was at the Council that it was decided what was inspired and what was not. It was this council that formalized and assembled the Bible. The Catholic Church can lay claim to giving us the Bible.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Mosacked]

Some people think something is rude because it affects their conviction, others see it as another side of the coin. I speak plainly and without intention to insult, nonetheless if you insist on taking it in that manner, you are free to do so. You can voice your opinion anyway you like, but its not going to sway my opinion.

Why don’t you try to answer that analogy I gave, instead of brushing it aside and excusing it as insulting?

.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

Some people think something is rude because it affects their conviction, others see it as another side of the coin. I speak plainly and without intention to insult, nonetheless if you insist on taking it in that manner, you are free to do so. You can voice your opinion anyway you like, but its not going to sway my opinion.

LOL. Talk about hypocrisy!

In one paragraph you say “Some people think something is rude because it affects their conviction” and then turn right around and say “its not going to sway my opinion.”

Your “opinion” is not FACT. In fact, your opinion bears little resemblance to the facts at all.

 

[Anna_Scott]

(name removed by moderator):

I’m glad you posted this info re “Roman Catholic.” I didn’t know this was an offensive term.

Thanks,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Yes.

I have no idea of whom you speak, but I simply wish to note what history does: Obviously, The Catholic Church had nothing to do with it. Scripture in some cases was accepted as such as much as one thousand, four hundred years before even The Catholic Church itself claims to have come into existence; the claim is simply baseless.

Without a doubt, The Catholic Church eventually did what most denominations have done: embraced the canon of books in some official manner. But acknowledging is not the same as forming or choosing or giving. And I don’t doubt that there may have been a Catholic involved in the process of choosing, but having a Catholic involved doesn’t make it an action of The Catholic Church anymore than having a Baptist go to the Moon means that The Baptist Church went to the Moon or that The Baptist Chruch gave us the Moon.

Now, if you have solid history to say that the Israelites accepted The Ten Commandments because The Catholic Church told them such was Scripture - then I’ll reconsider my position. If you can tell me that when Jesus said “Scripture” as He did over 20 times, He did so as an employee of The Catholic Church simply stating what The Catholic Church had authorized Him to say, then I think you’ll have a point. But I see NOTHING in history that supports that The Catholic Church “gave us” the Bible. Or even had a THING to do with it.

Josiah, you seem to have a problem dealing with the fact that all your history sources were Catholics! Clearly, you don’t want to accept that Catholics sifted through ALL the OT documents, and sifted through the new scribblings AFTER Christ, to decide the NT, and together through various councils of The Church compiled the CANON OF THE CHRISTIAN SCIPTURES!

It’s as factual as the small matter of all Biblical historians NEEDING to go through The Church’s history to determine for themselves HOW Holy Writ comes to be in its present form.

In which case, this is going to hurt you even worse; since Christ instituted The Catholic Church, guess what He Is?

Yeah! And He gave us (Humanity) The Book as a ‘roadcode’ to where he Lives.

You call that history? Sounds like biased personal opinion.

That garbage works over at www.christianforums.com , but not here.
Yes, I recognize your posting style, CaliforniaJosiah.

He’s use to having the anti-Catholic hater mods at www.christianforums.com backing him up

Please forgive this “sidebar”:

I got into a whole lot of trouble on a Baptist Thread at christianforums.com. Having been brought up in Baptist Churches, I wanted to give my Baptist brethren one more chance. I was asking for proof of the Trinity doctrine through “Sola Scriptura.” I posted passages of Scripture that seem to point to the Trinity and passages that seem to contradict the Trinity.

Moderators scrubbed some of my posts, saying it was against forum rules to argue against the Trinity doctrine. I didn’t know how to discuss the Sola Scriptura issue without pointing to certain Scriptures that seem to contradict the Trinity—at least without the “tradition” of the ECF to guide the interpretation. I even told them I do believe in the Trinity.

Though they were claiming Sola Scriptura; at one point, I was given the tile of a book to help me understand the Trinity–a very ironic twist to the claim of Sola Scriptura.

In the end, a Baptist minister told me we could discuss the issue by PM. He also told me the moderators questioned my sincerity. They treated me like I was a “troll.” It was such a disturbing experience. I can’t even begin to tell you. That was my last attempt to reconcile with the Baptist church.

And, yes, there are anti-Catholic ministers at christianforums.com. In one post, I referred to my Catholic Brothers and Sisters. I was promptly told that Catholics are not our Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

I couldn’t get back to CAF fast enough. At least here, we are allowed freedom of speech, and the freedom to ask the tough questions. I have been “chewed out” a few times here (sometimes I deserved it, and sometimes I didn’t); but at least we have freedom of speech. I will gladly endure a few chastising responses–opposed to the censorship of christianforums.com. Most Catholics, here, are very helpful, patient, and understanding. There is also a wealth of knowledge among forum members from many different religions.

AmericanJosiah, I ask you to take a few steps back, and consider the possibility that what you have been taught about Catholicism might be rooted in fallacy and prejudice.

God Bless CAF,
Anna

 

[Bill_Pick]

Some people think something is rude because it affects their conviction, others see it as another side of the coin. I speak plainly and without intention to insult, nonetheless if you insist on taking it in that manner, you are free to do so. You can voice your opinion anyway you like, but its not going to sway my opinion.

Why don’t you try to answer that analogy I gave, instead of brushing it aside and excusing it as insulting?

.

if any one reads this it is just opinion and that is all he/she is saying it is a opinion,and we all know about opinions

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

Please forgive this “sidebar”:

I got into a whole lot of trouble on a Baptist Thread at christianforums.com. Having been brought up in Baptist Churches, I wanted to give my Baptist brethren one more chance. I was asking for proof of the Trinity doctrine through “Sola Scriptura.” I posted passages of Scripture that seem to point to the Trinity and passages that seem to contradict the Trinity.

Moderators scrubbed some of my posts, saying it was against forum rules to argue against the Trinity doctrine. I didn’t know how to discuss the Sola Scriptura issue without pointing to certain Scriptures that seem to contradict the Trinity—at least without the “tradition” of the ECF to guide the interpretation. I even told them I do believe in the Trinity.

Though they were claiming Sola Scriptura; at one point, I was given the tile of a book to help me understand the Trinity–a very ironic twist to the claim of Sola Scriptura.

In the end, a Baptist minister told me we could discuss the issue by PM. He also told me the moderators questioned my sincerity. They treated me like I was a “troll.” It was such a disturbing experience. I can’t even begin to tell you. That was my last attempt to reconcile with the Baptist church.

And, yes, there are anti-Catholic ministers at christianforums.com. In one post, I referred to my Catholic Brothers and Sisters. I was promptly told that Catholics are not our Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

I couldn’t get back to CAF fast enough. At least here, we are allowed freedom of speech, and the freedom to ask the tough questions. I have been “chewed out” a few times here (sometimes I deserved it, and sometimes I didn’t); but at least we have freedom of speech. I will gladly endure a few chastising responses–opposed to the censorship of christianforums.com. Most Catholics, here, are very helpful, patient, and understanding. There is also a wealth of knowledge among forum members from many different religions.

AmericanJosiah, I ask you to take a few steps back, and consider the possibility that what you have been taught about Catholicism might be rooted in fallacy and prejudice.

God Bless CAF,
Anna

Thats a great post. I sympatize with, and have experienced, much of what you have written.

I’m glad you are here at CAF

 

[Anna_Scott]

Please forgive this “sidebar”:

I got into a whole lot of trouble on a Baptist Thread at christianforums.com. Having been brought up in Baptist Churches, I wanted to give my Baptist brethren one more chance. I was asking for proof of the Trinity doctrine through “Sola Scriptura.” I posted passages of Scripture that seem to point to the Trinity and passages that seem to contradict the Trinity.

Moderators scrubbed some of my posts, saying it was against forum rules to argue against the Trinity doctrine. I didn’t know how to discuss the Sola Scriptura issue without pointing to certain Scriptures that seem to contradict the Trinity—at least without the “tradition” of the ECF to guide the interpretation. I even told them I do believe in the Trinity.

Though they were claiming Sola Scriptura; at one point, I was given the tile of a book to help me understand the Trinity–a very ironic twist to the claim of Sola Scriptura.

In the end, a Baptist minister told me we could discuss the issue by PM. He also told me the moderators questioned my sincerity. They treated me like I was a “troll.” It was such a disturbing experience. I can’t even begin to tell you. That was my last attempt to reconcile with the Baptist church.

And, yes, there are anti-Catholic ministers at christianforums.com. In one post, I referred to my Catholic Brothers and Sisters. I was promptly told that Catholics are not our Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

I couldn’t get back to CAF fast enough. At least here, we are allowed freedom of speech, and the freedom to ask the tough questions. I have been “chewed out” a few times here (sometimes I deserved it, and sometimes I didn’t); but at least we have freedom of speech. I will gladly endure a few chastising responses–opposed to the censorship of christianforums.com. Most Catholics, here, are very helpful, patient, and understanding. There is also a wealth of knowledge among forum members from many different religions.

AmericanJosiah, I ask you to take a few steps back, and consider the possibility that what you have been taught about Catholicism might be rooted in fallacy and prejudice.

God Bless CAF,
Anna

Thats a great post. I sympatize with, and have experienced, much of what you have written.

I’m glad you are here at CAF

Appreciate the support. I’m very glad to be here.

Anna

 

[jmcrae]

And the difference between us is I take God at His word and believe Him when He said I don’t need anyone else to teach me.

Where in the Bible does it say or even imply that we don’t need teachers?

On the contrary, every line of Scripture shows us men of God teaching the people of God, and exhortations to learn from these godly men, in order to get wisdom.

“A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:”–Proverbs 1:5

“Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.”–Proverbs 11:14

“The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.”–Proverbs 12:15

 

[KathleenGee]

I experienced the worst prejudice from Baptists when growing up. They wanted my mother and I to come to their church. We finally did. When I came in, the minister stared at me…and the building was cold, nothing spiritual or holy, more the same as a secular building. He started shouting and denouncing Catholics, and it was the first time I felt darkness and evil in another person. He really scared me. I knew it was a false church. I know there are Baptist churches that are good as well that wouldn’t treat Catholic guests as such.

About reference to the Holy Trinity…as shared elsewhere today, we experience the Theophany of a significant of God with man on earth at the baptism of Jesus by St. John the Baptist. Jesus did not need to have sin washed away.

When He was baptized, a dove appeared over Him, and a voice from heaven said before St. John and his followers to Jesus, ‘This is My Beloved Son, of Whom I am well pleased’. Here we share the witness with the baptizer of the Heavenly Father, Jesus His son, and the Holy Spirit, three in one. Holy Trinity is just a simple term we use to name three persons in One God. There is no harm in that…and I am certain the Baptists and other groups have their own special terms…like another term Baptists use to describe themselves as coming from the earliest Christians…

I tolerate just so much, but when people come in just to dump or put down or promote half truths or falsehoods, then I share…

 

[Deconi]

Please forgive this “sidebar”:

I got into a whole lot of trouble on a Baptist Thread at christianforums.com. Having been brought up in Baptist Churches, I wanted to give my Baptist brethren one more chance. I was asking for proof of the Trinity doctrine through “Sola Scriptura.” I posted passages of Scripture that seem to point to the Trinity and passages that seem to contradict the Trinity.

Moderators scrubbed some of my posts, saying it was against forum rules to argue against the Trinity doctrine. I didn’t know how to discuss the Sola Scriptura issue without pointing to certain Scriptures that seem to contradict the Trinity—at least without the “tradition” of the ECF to guide the interpretation. I even told them I do believe in the Trinity.

Though they were claiming Sola Scriptura; at one point, I was given the tile of a book to help me understand the Trinity–a very ironic twist to the claim of Sola Scriptura.

In the end, a Baptist minister told me we could discuss the issue by PM. He also told me the moderators questioned my sincerity. They treated me like I was a “troll.” It was such a disturbing experience. I can’t even begin to tell you. That was my last attempt to reconcile with the Baptist church.

And, yes, there are anti-Catholic ministers at christianforums.com. In one post, I referred to my Catholic Brothers and Sisters. I was promptly told that Catholics are not our Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

I couldn’t get back to CAF fast enough. At least here, we are allowed freedom of speech, and the freedom to ask the tough questions. I have been “chewed out” a few times here (sometimes I deserved it, and sometimes I didn’t); but at least we have freedom of speech. I will gladly endure a few chastising responses–opposed to the censorship of christianforums.com. Most Catholics, here, are very helpful, patient, and understanding. There is also a wealth of knowledge among forum members from many different religions.

AmericanJosiah, I ask you to take a few steps back, and consider the possibility that what you have been taught about Catholicism might be rooted in fallacy and prejudice.

God Bless CAF,
Anna

Ha ha…You’ll have to go ‘easy’ on our brethren in Christ. It is an unfortunate turn of events that having been given Scriptures by ‘Sola Scripturists’ who tainted the various passages of Scriptures, it is not really a matter of laying the blame at the feet of the multitudes within the Protestant lanscape!

Having said that, as your own experience here can attest, there are Catholics who have refuted so much anti-Catholicism over time that our ‘patience’ wanes to a level where our responses are 'testy!"

Even with the counsel of our first Pope, St Peter, to “always be prepared to answer those who enquire about the faith within you,…but let your response be with charity…” our humanity always fails us, once or twice!

For myself, I normally “mirror” the tone of the ‘enquirer,’ although, I should be more charitable.

 

[Mosacked]

LOL. Talk about hypocrisy!

In one paragraph you say “Some people think something is rude because it affects their conviction” and then turn right around and say “its not going to sway my opinion.”

Your “opinion” is not FACT. In fact, your opinion bears little resemblance to the facts at all.

Can you not judge for yourself at your level of maturity, what is opinion and what is not?

Why then do you get so worked up after accusing me of swapping fact for opinion?

Where does the Bible come from? - God. Now is that a fact or opinion?

Your replies are forcing me to suspect that you may not exactly be coherent in your thinking.
.

 

[Deconi]

Can you not judge for yourself at your level of maturity, what is opinion and what is not?

Why then do you get so worked up after accusing me of swapping fact for opinion?

Where does the Bible come from? - God. Now is that a fact or opinion?

Your replies are forcing me to suspect that you may not exactly be coherent in your thinking.
.

Mos, for sometime now on this thread, your ignorance is, clearly, deliberate, subjecting any further response to you to the same level.

Bye now.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Can you not judge for yourself at your level of maturity, what is opinion and what is not?

Why then do you get so worked up after accusing me of swapping fact for opinion?

Where does the Bible come from? - God. Now is that a fact or opinion?

Your replies are forcing me to suspect that you may not exactly be coherent in your thinking.
.

Mosacked:

Specifically, what study have you done regarding the history of the Biblical Cannon and the history of the transmission of Scripture? It would be helpful to know this.

Anna

 

[jmcrae]

Where does the Bible come from? - God.

All things come from God - even the Devil is God’s creation, although He did not create him for evil.

Your house comes from God, because it is God who planted the trees and created the stones from which it was created, who created the men and women who built and decorated it, and gave them the talents with which they did so. They also gave you your talents, which you exchanged for the money with which you bought your house.

The Bible comes from God in the same way that your house comes from God. God created the people, gave them their Catholic faith, and placed them into the Catholic Church for just this purpose. However, the labourer also deserves his wages - credit also goes to the people who followed God’s will and built the house - it also goes to those who came together to give us the Bible.

The Bible didn’t fall fully formed from the sky - nor did God whisper in anyone’s ear to tell them what to write in the Bible.

 

[PRmerger]

Where does the Bible come from? - God. Now is that a fact or opinion?

It’s a fact. A *Catholic *fact, of course!

However, that’s like saying, “Where do babies come from? --God”. No disagreement there. However, God uses people to bring about these beautiful creatures.

Same with the Sacred Scriptures. God used people–Catholic people–to bring about this Bible.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

Where does the Bible come from? - God. Now is that a fact or opinion?

Its a fact.

And just as god worked through men to write the scriptures, he also worked through men to canonize the Bible, and those men were the Bishops in union with Pope Damasus I.

Thanks for proving my case

 

[AmericanJosiah]

Josiah…wake up and smell the coffee! The canon of Jewish scripture ( Tanakh ) was formalized many years before Jesus.

… and the point of this thread is that The Catholic Church did it.

I disagree. History disagrees.

These writings ( NT ) were done well after Jesus had gone. Since at the time all the different Churches were in communion with one another they comprised ONE Church

Of course, as a Protestant, I disagree. I don’t believe Christians were or are a denomination. I believe that Christians are people. But yes, by faith, all Christians are bound together into one holy and catholic church - the “communion of saints.” But that, of course, has nothing whatsoever to do with any congregations or associations thereof (denominations) - including The Catholic Church. But all that aside, the point of this thread is that The Catholic Church “gave us” the Bible - from the Ten Commandments (around 1400 BC) through the Revelation of John (perhaps 95 AD). It did it. I don’t agree. And I don’t think history agrees.

The Bishops assembled together to determine which was true and which wasn’t.

Well, among other things, that was an issue at Trent in the 16th century. But, of course, Scriptures had been embraced as such LONG before that - in some cases, nearly 3000 years before that. And even if you want to point to Hippo (and the issue of the canon wasn’t an issue there), that too was simply FAR too late to have any relevance to the issue whatsoever. I agree with my Catholic teachers that The Catholic Church did not forum or choose or decide the books of the Bible, it officially affirmed them - EXACTLY as has almost all other denominations. But affirming something already done and making it happen are two very, very different things. I affirm that the sun came up this morning; I had nothing to do with it.

Also, at the time ( approximately the second century ) the term Catholic was used to describe the Church

… entirely moot to the issue of this thread, but actually, the adjective “catholic” was used to describe the church. That beginning in the second century. It STILL is one of the adjectives used to describe the church. It has nothing to do with The Catholic Church or with the issue of this thread.

The Catholic Church can lay claim to giving us the Bible.

So, it was The Catholic Church that wrote those two tablets on Mount Sinai? It was The Catholic Church that caused Jesus to reference such some 50 times? Friend, history shows that the first time ANY institutional entity did ANYTHING in reference to this subject was in 393. Even if you want to claim this was a distictive action of The Catholic Church, it’s too late to have any relevance to the issue of this thread. Sorry, that’s just he history.

.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

…So, it was The Catholic Church that wrote those two tablets on Mount Sinai?..

Stop making silly comments and stick with the discussion, This isn’t the CF forums.