The Catholic church did not give us the Bible

[Hiskid1973]

Just like Hiskid and me are catholic Christians.
Just like!!!

Amen…Living stones set on the foundation of the apostles and prophets with our Lord Jesus as the chief cornerstone

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well, y’all are certainly Christians. If we had all lived in AD 400 or so (or before the protestant split) we’d all be Catholic and catholic Christians. Just like St. Paul and the apostles who were Catholic and catholic. Just like I (today) am Catholic and catholic. You two, on the other hand, are nonCatholic and catholic. You’re part of the universal Christian family but not members of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church formally.

And after all, though you may complain that we are ‘excluding you’, I ask you in turn, just how accepting you are of the Catholic Church. Some of you (not you personally) don’t even think that are Christians, so the ‘discrimination’ appears to work both ways . I mean, I don’t deny you’re Christians so it appears I am actually less ‘discriminatory’ than some of my Protestant brothers!

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

If you can prove that The Catholic Church “gave us” the Bible - then do. So far, no one in this thread has even attempted to do so. Start with the first Scirpture - The Ten Commandments (around 1400 BC) and document how The Catholic Church “gave it”. Then we can progress through all Scriptures until The Revelation of John - generally regarded as the last Scripture, written around 95 AD. …

Why are you purposely ignoring the answers to you posts? You are totally ignoring the answers and regurgitating the same exact questions over and over. You are just arguing for arguments sake.

FOR THE THIRD TIME: When we say the Church gave us the Bible, we mean She gave us the Bible in its present form. Nobody denies that the OT preceeded the Church. But the NT was canonized by the Bishops in union with Pope Damasus I. Thats a historical fact whether you like it or not.

So, the OT coupled together with the NT is the Bible in its present form, which we have thanks to God working through the Bishops and the Pope. I might add that, even then, the protestants managed to corrupt their Bible by removing books from the OT. That is another area in which you err.

AND DON’T QUOTE ME AND EDIT MY QUOTE AGAIN, OR IT WILL BE REPORTED FROM HERE ON OUT

 

[Anna_Scott]

Why are you purposely ignoring the answers to you posts? You are totally ignoring the answers and regurgitating the same exact questions over and over. You are just arguing for arguments sake.

FOR THE THIRD TIME: When we say the Church gave us the Bible, we mean She gave us the Bible in its present form. Nobody denies that the OT preceeded the Church. But the NT was canonized by the Bishops in union with Pope Damasus I. Thats a historical fact whether you like it or not.

So, the OT coupled together with the NT is the Bible in its present form, which we have thanks to God working through the Bishops and the Pope. I might add that, even then, the protestants managed to corrupt their Bible by removing books from the OT. That is another area in which you err.

AND DON’T QUOTE ME AND EDIT MY QUOTE AGAIN, OR IT WILL BE REPORTED FROM HERE ON OUT

Irish:

I am Protestant, and I acknowledge that the Catholic Church was responsible for the Biblical Cannon. I can’t say that I agree with the Protestant Reformers’ decision to remove the Apocrypha. I’ve read the Books in the Protestant Cannon. I still need to read the Apocrypha.

As for AmericanJosiah ignoring responses to his posts, he’s doing that on other Threads as well. He just keeps repeating things, as if they will come true, if he repeats them often enough. We’ve probably given him far too much attention. It takes a lot for me to reach that point with any forum member; but I’m just about there with Josiah.

Anna

 

[Hiskid1973]

Yes your right …It goes both ways…I have this policy if someone they’re a christian I take their word for it…It shows in our word and deed…He knows who our His, I don’t, so I treat all the same…I love and care for my unsaved neighbor as well as my saved neighbors…We should be known for our love for each other but we bite and devour our own kind…Wait till things get tougher, you see battles dropped and people helping each other…peace to you…I have a catholic neighbor, we focus on our love for the Lord reaching out to unsaved around us and leave alone what is different…

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

Irish:

I am Protestant, and I acknowledge that the Catholic Church was responsible for the Biblical Cannon. I can’t say that I agree with the Protestant Reformers’ decision to remove the Apocrypha. I’ve read the Books in the Protestant Cannon. I still need to read the Apocrypha.

As for AmericanJosiah ignoring responses to his posts, he’s doing that on other Threads as well. He just keeps repeating things, as if they will come true, if he repeats them often enough. We’ve probably given him far too much attention. It takes a lot for me to reach that point with any forum member; but I’m just about there with Josiah.

Anna

Yes, you are probably right.

As a side note: Here is an pretty good paper on the Deuterocanonicals (which you are referring to as “Apocrypha”): cin.org/users/james/files/deuteros.htm

 

[Anna_Scott]

Yes, you are probably right.

As a side note: Here is an pretty good paper on the Deuterocanonicals (which you are referring to as “Apocrypha”): cin.org/users/james/files/deuteros.htm

Irish,

I just read that article. Very informative.

I was aware of some of the information. I’m sorry for using the term “Apocrypha.” I guess that is a “Protestant” term. As I said, I haven’t read these Books yet, but need to.

I have a long list of books and articles to read. I’ve received many excellent resources here at CAF. I think I really should read the “Deuterocanonical” Books, before going much farther in my religious studies. I need to know what they say, and I need to recognize references to them. :coffeeread:

Thanks, Irish,
Anna

 

[Hisalone]

Irish:

I am Protestant, and I acknowledge that the Catholic Church was responsible for the Biblical Cannon. I can’t say that I agree with the Protestant Reformers’ decision to remove the Apocrypha. I’ve read the Books in the Protestant Cannon. I still need to read the Apocrypha.

As for AmericanJosiah ignoring responses to his posts, he’s doing that on other Threads as well. He just keeps repeating things, as if they will come true, if he repeats them often enough. We’ve probably given him far too much attention. It takes a lot for me to reach that point with any forum member; but I’m just about there with Josiah.

Anna

Protestants did not remove any books from the cannon.
The Catholic cannon was not finalized untill Trent thus the Catholics added 7 books.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Protestants did not remove any books from the cannon.
The Catholic cannon was not finalized untill Trent thus the Catholics added 7 books.

I think we are reading different historical accounts.

Anna

 

[jpaul1953]

Then by your same logic, it was individuals who gave us the Bible, not the church.

Dear NTS,

You are being critical of the True Church which can offend some Catholics. I believe you do not understand much of why you believe what you believe.

Protestants protest against every major belief of the Catholic Church. Many times their defense is not only weak, but down right wrong.

Your take on all matters of faith and morals that differ from the Church are simply understood differently. This is what makes you Protestant…you must disagree, if you don’t then your are Catholic.

May God guide all to the one infallable truth.

jpaul1953

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

Protestants did not remove any books from the cannon.
The Catholic cannon was not finalized untill Trent thus the Catholics added 7 books.

WOW that is so wrong.

This is one of the most common errors people make. Just because the Church affirms and defines something in council, does not mean they “invented” it at that time.

There are many beliefs that have never been formally defined but are still true nonetheless. BUT: When a major event brings a belief into question, the Church will often define that belief in order to bring the argument to a close. This is such a case. The Deuterocanonicals were always accepted as part of the OT, so there was never a need to formally define their canonicity. Bit when the protestants brought the canon into question, thats when the Council of Trent defined what had ALWAYS been accepted.

Bottom line: You are sorely in error. Those books were in the Septuigent before Jesus was even born.

 

[AmericanJosiah]

Just because the Church affirms and defines something in council, does not mean they “invented” it at that time.

Wait, that’s EXACTLY your position: That just because The Catholic Church affirmed and defined something in a council, that means it “invited” it at that time and “gave it” us the world. You keep pointing to a council - and insisting THAT’S when it happened.

.

 

[AmericanJosiah]

Why are you purposely ignoring the answers to you posts? You are totally ignoring the answers and regurgitating the same exact questions over and over. You are just arguing for arguments sake.

FOR THE THIRD TIME: When we say the Church gave us the Bible, we mean She gave us the Bible in its present form. Nobody denies that the OT preceeded the Church. But the NT was canonized by the Bishops in union with Pope Damasus I. Thats a historical fact whether you like it or not.

So, the OT coupled together with the NT is the Bible in its present form, which we have thanks to God working through the Bishops and the Pope. I might add that, even then, the protestants managed to corrupt their Bible by removing books from the OT. That is another area in which you err.

AND DON’T QUOTE ME AND EDIT MY QUOTE AGAIN, OR IT WILL BE REPORTED FROM HERE ON OUT

I’m responding to the issue of this thread, not your continuing modifications…
The issue here is not bishops or believers or Christians - it’s The Catholic Church.
The issue here is not the New Testament, it’s the Bible (which is larger than that, you know)
The issue is not that The Catholic Church (like most other denominations) officially embraced the list of books (we all know almost all denominations, including yours, has done this), the issue is giving us the Bible.
Let’s stick to the topic.

MY position - which you have been debating all along is this: There is ZERO historical evidence for this oft-made Catholic claim. Most of the Scriptures existed and were affirmed as such LONG before even The Catholic Church itself claims it came into existence - making the claim remarkable on the face of it, and the historical reality is this: the case was largely settled before ANYTHING did ANYTHING in this regard - including the Council you keep referring to. The statement of this thread is a historical fact: The Catholic Church did NOT give us the Bible (in spite of the claim to the contrary being made over and over and over and over by Catholics). The remarkable thing, my friend, is that this Catholic claim isn’t even Catholic - the Catechism teaches no such thing, and nor did my Catholic teachers. It’s just historically baseless.

.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

I’m responding to the issue of this thread…

No you’re not. The thread title is “The Catholic church did not give us the Bible” and I have repeatedly explained how the Bible in its present form WAS given to us by the Church

 

[jmcrae]

I’m responding to the issue of this thread, not your continuing modifications…
The issue here is not bishops or believers or Christians - it’s The Catholic Church.

What is “The Catholic Church,” in your mind, and in what way is it different than the Bishops and the people working together for Christ and for each other?

The issue is not that The Catholic Church (like most other denominations) officially embraced the list of books (we all know almost all denominations, including yours, has done this), the issue is giving us the Bible.

Before the Church came up with the list, there was no list.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Then by your same logic, it was individuals who gave us the Bible, not the church.

Dear NTS,

You are being critical of the True Church which can offend some Catholics. I believe you do not understand much of why you believe what you believe.

Protestants protest against every major belief of the Catholic Church. Many times their defense is not only weak, but down right wrong.

Your take on all matters of faith and morals that differ from the Church are simply understood differently. This is what makes you Protestant…you must disagree, if you don’t then your are Catholic.

May God guide all to the one infallable truth.jpaul1953

I will defend NotTooSmart. He changed his name to AmateurPianist, and is writing some very insightful posts. Some actually defend the Catholic positions. So, he has come a long way, since his first posts on this Thread.

When we, Protestants, are here for a while, we do eventually learn a few things.

God Bless,
Anna

Mosackd

I am a little curious here. The Bible in Ephesians 4:11 specifically mentions that God gave us the gift of teachers. In the following verses it explains why.

Do you think God would give us something we do not need?

You have to take the Bible in context with the whole Bible. You just can’t rip 1 John 2:27 out and totally neglect Ephesians 4;11?

I have another question for you to think about.

Do you think it would be ok for you to decide that in your personal canon that you do not recognize the book of Hebrews? If not, what is it exactly that is preventing you from doing so? Remember I am not Catholic myself.

Hi Mosacked.

For the record, I am not Catholic btw.

For the record, Catholics do not believe the Sacraments save in themselves.

Now you and I may or may not disagree exactly how they work. But don’t you think you might want to know precisely what you disagree with, and what (surprise) you may agree with. Misrepresenting their beliefs does neither.

Now you might want to do some research on this one and learn exactly how the title “Mother of God” came to be. You might learn something.

Hint…Jesus is God (presuming you are trinitarian), Mary is the mother of Jesus. So connect the dots.

Worst case is that this is an ambiguous title (Mary is not the mother of God the father). But this is by far not the worst title that I have seen (for example the title Sola Scriptura is far worse as far as describing what Protestants actually believe). So pot meet kettle here.

Now the Catholic church does not claim to be above Scripture.

Now you might have that perception. But wouldn’t it be more honest and less confrontational just to say that you have this perception and ask whether or not your perception is the truth. You might still disagree in the end, but you might also have a clearer understanding on what it is exactly that you disagree with.

If you approach these matters with an open mind, you might possibly find that although you still disagree with Catholics on certain matters, at the same time you might be misinformed as to what they believe. And you might learn something.

And learning something is a good thing methinks.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Protestants did not remove any books from the cannon.
The Catholic cannon was not finalized untill Trent thus the Catholics added 7 books.

I think we are reading different historical accounts.

Anna

WOW that is so wrong.

This is one of the most common errors people make. Just because the Church affirms and defines something in council, does not mean they “invented” it at that time.

There are many beliefs that have never been formally defined but are still true nonetheless. BUT: When a major event brings a belief into question, the Church will often define that belief in order to bring the argument to a close. This is such a case. The Deuterocanonicals were always accepted as part of the OT, so there was never a need to formally define their canonicity. Bit when the protestants brought the canon into question, thats when the Council of Trent defined what had ALWAYS been accepted.

Bottom line: You are sorely in error. Those books were in the Septuigent before Jesus was even born.

Irish,
I agree.

I just didn’t have the energy to debate Hisalone. I think I’ve spent most of my debating energy for the day. :imsorry:

Anna

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

Wait, that’s EXACTLY your position: That just because The Catholic Church affirmed and defined something in a council, that means it “invited” it at that time and “gave it” us the world. You keep pointing to a council - and insisting THAT’S when it happened.

So when early councils “defined” the Trinity, does that mean they “invented” the Trinity? God was not Triune before the couincil? And when early councils “defined” Christ’s divinity, does that mean Jesus was not divine before the council?

You are not using any common sense. Instead of having these kneejerk reactions, why don’t you STOP and THINK about what is actually being said here.

 

[Loude]

Do you believe The Ten Commandments are Scriptures? It is generally regarded that they were the first Scriptures. Do you believe they are biblical? If so, then they are included in the issue of the Bible. The point of this thread is that The Catholic Church “gave us” the Bible. That includes The Ten Comandments, IMHO. The point is not that Catholics gave us The Bible (which would require that Moses be documented as a Catholic since he’s the one who brought the tablets down the Mountain), etc. The point is that The Catholic Church did it. I disagree. I think history disagrees.

Not meaning to split hairs, but the Bible is a volume of different books compiled together. Since there were many books considered to be the Word of God, the Church came together in Council to put what was determined, in union with the Holy Spirit, to be the infallible Word of God under one cover. many books thought to be Scriptural were not included. This was also the case with the Jewish Canon they did not form a concise Canon until the 1ST century many centuries after the Stone Tablets were given to Moses. Books that were once considered to be Scripture by them were not put in their Canon (Reasons for this would be for another thread). Bottom line the Church compiled the Books, formed and gave us the Bible.

.

 

[Hisalone]

WOW that is so wrong.

This is one of the most common errors people make. Just because the Church affirms and defines something in council, does not mean they “invented” it at that time.

There are many beliefs that have never been formally defined but are still true nonetheless. BUT: When a major event brings a belief into question, the Church will often define that belief in order to bring the argument to a close. This is such a case. The Deuterocanonicals were always accepted as part of the OT, so there was never a need to formally define their canonicity. Bit when the protestants brought the canon into question, thats when the Council of Trent defined what had ALWAYS been accepted.

Bottom line: You are sorely in error. Those books were in the Septuigent before Jesus was even born.

No in fact both you and Anna are sorely wrong. Before Trent there was debate and a difference of opinion as to what the cannon was. After Trent there was no difference of opinion no debate. It was at Trent that the Catholic cannon was settled long after the Jewish cannon was closed by the Jews. BTW the oracles of God were intrusted to the Jews.
No less of an authority than Jerome believed that the Apocrapha was not part of the cannon. He didnt get the memo that the cannon was closed.