The Catholic church did not give us the Bible

[Javl]

Originally Posted by Hisalone
Protestants did not remove any books from the cannon.
The Catholic cannon was not finalized untill Trent thus the Catholics added 7 books.

Gosh! And here I thought that Martin Luther threw out a lot of the Catholic Bible. As for the 7 books, they were not added at the Council, they were in long before the Council formalized the Canon. Please read your history.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Hisalone]

Gosh! And here I thought that Martin Luther threw out a lot of the Catholic Bible. As for the 7 books, they were not added at the Council, they were in long before the Council formalized the Canon. Please read your history.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Read my post------ even the Catholic Encyclopedia acknowledges that Trent closed the cannon.
You read your history.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

Read my post------ even the Catholic Encyclopedia acknowledges that Trent closed the cannon.
You read your history.

You are missing the point. Just because Trent closed the debate does NOT mean the books werre “inserted” at that time. Those books were always in the OT from the apostles onward.

 

[Javl]

Originally Posted by AmericanJosiah
Do you believe The Ten Commandments are Scriptures? It is generally regarded that they were the first Scriptures. Do you believe they are biblical? If so, then they are included in the issue of the Bible. The point of this thread is that The Catholic Church “gave us” the Bible. That includes The Ten Comandments, IMHO. The point is not that Catholics gave us The Bible (which would require that Moses be documented as a Catholic since he’s the one who brought the tablets down the Mountain), etc. The point is that The Catholic Church did it. I disagree. I think history disagrees.

Not meaning to split hairs, but the Bible is a volume of different books compiled together. Since there were many books considered to be the Word of God, the Church came together in Council to put what was determined, in union with the Holy Spirit, to be the infallible Word of God under one cover. many books thought to be Scriptural were not included. This was also the case with the Jewish Canon they did not form a concise Canon until the 1ST century many centuries after the Stone Tablets were given to Moses. Books that were once considered to be Scripture by them were not put in their Canon (Reasons for this would be for another thread). Bottom line the Church compiled the Books, formed and gave us the Bible.

For crying out loud, Josiah. But don’t you get it? There was no such thing as a Bible before the Catholic Church assembled the books of the Tanakh and the inspired scriptures and labeled them as the Old Testament and New Testament. Because there were so many documents floating around that were claimed to be authentic, the first council was convened to determine which was inspired and which was not. It was the Catholic Church that produced the Bible,

Also, the Tanakh existed long before the first century.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[PRmerger]

For crying out loud, Josiah. But don’t you get it? There was no such thing as a Bible before the Catholic Church assembled the books of the Tanakh and the inspired scriptures and labeled them as the Old Testament and New Testament. Because there were so many documents floating around that were claimed to be authentic, the first council was convened to determine which was inspired and which was not. It was the Catholic Church that produced the Bible,

Also, the Tanakh existed long before the first century.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Indeed!

And, Josiah, you can thank the Catholic Church for telling you that the Ten Commandments are inspired and not, say, the Bhagavad Gita.

You would not know that the Ten Commandments were inspired, were it not for the Catholic Church (paraphrasing the Catholic Bishop, St. Augustine ).

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

For crying out loud, Josiah. But don’t you get it?..

He just doesn’t want to get it. I know him and his MO from another forum. He repeats the same things, ad infinitum, ad absurdum. And the answers just go in one of his ears and out the other. You will never get through to him

 

[Tantum_ergo]

We may never get through to him but the Holy Spirit working through us might.

 

[Hiskid1973]

He just doesn’t want to get it. I know him and his MO from another forum. He repeats the same things, ad infinitum, ad absurdum. And the answers just go in one of his ears and out the other. You will never get through to him

Hey…Be nice…He’s a young lad remember… … I’m still waiting to hear his definition of the “catholic church”…peace to you !

 

[PRmerger]

He just doesn’t want to get it. I know him and his MO from another forum. He repeats the same things, ad infinitum, ad absurdum. And the answers just go in one of his ears and out the other. You will never get through to him

Kind of reminds me of a trick Customer Service Reps apparently use on the phone: Customer calls to complain. Rep says a standard line. Customer gives further explanation. Rep repeats standard line, perhaps varying the position of the adjectives. Customer gives reasoning why that standard line doesn’t apply. Rep (while filing her nails) says, sympathetically, “Standard Line”.

Customer hangs up in frustration.

 

[RevDrNorth]

…unless you also want to say that the Catholic church gave us the inquisition and the priest sex abuse scandals.

The point being that you can not take credit for the positive while at the same time pass the buck on the negative. A little consistency on this please.

The church which eventually split into the RC and EO may not have given us the bible (God did that) but they were His instrument AND in the case of the RCC also responsible for preservation of it and learning thanks to the Holy Spirit (dark ages in the west).

The sex abuse scandals were probably the worst in the RCC because of size and negligence on the part of those in authority BUT the number of denominations from Baptist to you name it with similar scandals and issues is significant.

Even if you are not RC, you owe a great deal to the RCC if you are a western Christian.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Please click on arrow after my name to see my post about NotTooSmart.

Thanks,
Anna

 

[benedictus2]

Please forgive this “sidebar”:

I got into a whole lot of trouble on a Baptist Thread at christianforums.com. Having been brought up in Baptist Churches, I wanted to give my Baptist brethren one more chance. I was asking for proof of the Trinity doctrine through “Sola Scriptura.” I posted passages of Scripture that seem to point to the Trinity and passages that seem to contradict the Trinity.

Moderators scrubbed some of my posts, saying it was against forum rules to argue against the Trinity doctrine. I didn’t know how to discuss the Sola Scriptura issue without pointing to certain Scriptures that seem to contradict the Trinity—at least without the “tradition” of the ECF to guide the interpretation. I even told them I do believe in the Trinity.

Though they were claiming Sola Scriptura; at one point, I was given the tile of a book to help me understand the Trinity–a very ironic twist to the claim of Sola Scriptura.

In the end, a Baptist minister told me we could discuss the issue by PM. He also told me the moderators questioned my sincerity. They treated me like I was a “troll.” It was such a disturbing experience. I can’t even begin to tell you. That was my last attempt to reconcile with the Baptist church.

And, yes, there are anti-Catholic ministers at christianforums.com. In one post, I referred to my Catholic Brothers and Sisters. I was promptly told that Catholics are not our Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

I couldn’t get back to CAF fast enough. At least here, we are allowed freedom of speech, and the freedom to ask the tough questions. I have been “chewed out” a few times here (sometimes I deserved it, and sometimes I didn’t); but at least we have freedom of speech. I will gladly endure a few chastising responses–opposed to the censorship of christianforums.com. Most Catholics, here, are very helpful, patient, and understanding. There is also a wealth of knowledge among forum members from many different religions.

AmericanJosiah, I ask you to take a few steps back, and consider the possibility that what you have been taught about Catholicism might be rooted in fallacy and prejudice.

God Bless CAF,
Anna

A case of being afraid of the truth that’s what it is. If one is so sure of that their position is true they would not be afraid of debate.

 

[benedictus2]

And the difference between us is I take God at His word and believe Him when He said I don’t need anyone else to teach me. U want to believe tradition and history thats up to you.

But how do you know that it is God’s word indeed in the first place. What you don’t realize is that by saying it is God’s word, you are affirming the authority of the Church because it is she who God used to write it, and it is she who God used to set the canon.

 

[benedictus2]

The church which eventually split into the RC and EO may not have given us the bible (God did that) but they were His instrument AND in the case of the RCC also responsible for preservation of it and learning thanks to the Holy Spirit (dark ages in the west).

And I would like to emphasize, His CHOSEN instrument. This is God WILLING this to happen so anyone who has an issue with this really have an issue with the God’s WILL.

The sex abuse scandals were probably the worst in the RCC because of size and negligence on the part of those in authority BUT the number of denominations from Baptist to you name it with similar scandals and issues is significant.

Even if you are not RC, you owe a great deal to the RCC if you are a western Christian.

Well said. Except as someone else has pointed out, the official name is the Catholic Church not the Roman Catholic Church, so CC not RCC. That is just something the protestants started calling us.

 

[Deconi]

I am Roman Catholic!

Aware of its ‘derogatory’ origin, it has now come to mean, as in, Rome is where the Vicar of Christ sits, and there I follow! The Chair of Peter is “ROME” so that there is no confusion as to where my allegiance face.

As two wooden beams bound together in a “plus sign” meant Agonising Death has come to mean Salvation for the world, so a derogatory term has come to be the point of our unity under Heaven and the BEACON for all to truly know Her Master!

(all sidebar I know!)

Hisalone, Trent HELD to the canon that was CLOSED by Pope Innocent I in 401AD. That means the council at Trent defended and maintained that the CLOSED Canon of Scriptures is the one for Christians. The reason why is because the Reformers claimed that the canon included books that should not be in there!!??

Conclusion = Trent did not decide the canon but HELD to it! Fortunate because people have a tendency to ‘INSERT’ these here; or ‘REMOVE’ these out!

Oh…uhm…that’s where you come in!

Josiah, I didn’t realise you may be ‘young,’ and forgive me if that’s not accurate. I have reread all your posts and for the most part, research and examination of Biblical, Church and secular history will further your understanding on this issue. I actually think that you DID NOT realise that ALL YOUR HISTORICAL SOURCES were Catholic people at Catholic Councils when you first started, I may be wrong. I believe some realisation has struck you and your posting is not as ‘convinced’ as it was.

Keep learning, the rest will follow.

One of the people you cited in your ‘anti- Catholic’ start was Augustine. You should read him and see where he proclaims; *“If it was not for The Catholic Church, I would not believe Scriptures”!..*or something to that effect. One day you’ll be like him!

A big problem with your view is that in the future, they will discover more scrolls and more writings that pre-date Our Lord’s Passion, and also some more scrolls during the NT period…just as the ‘Dead Sea Scrolls’ …for instance. Christians and non-Christians will argue that they SHOULD be included in The Bible and JUST AS INSPIRED BY GOD as the rest of The Bible! Some ‘idiots’ claim this now of the Gospels of Thomas, Mary, Bart…etc!

ANSWER = NO! Because Pope Innocent I has CLOSED the Canon of Scriptures; nothing in, nothing out!

Under your view, ‘scriptures’ were WAY before The Catholic Church came along, so every discovery that looks authentic OT or NT should be in! NO! The Chuch has already ‘sifted’ through ALL those (seen and unseen) and under guidance of Her Founder, DECIDED the Canon of Holy Writ!

Merry Christmas to you and your family…and pray for us all for a Happy New Year.

Don’t forget to sing Happy Birthday on Christmas Day!

God Bless your …uhm…stubborn self!
(Wear a helmet if you’re going to keep running into walls in this fashion)

Later Kid.

 

[benedictus2]

I am Roman Catholic!

Aware of its ‘derogatory’ origin, it has now come to mean, as in, Rome is where the Vicar of Christ sits, and there I follow! The Chair of Peter is “ROME” so that there is no confusion as to where my allegiance face.

Well said. I agree with that. Although I would say Catholic, Roman Rite.

 

[jpaul1953]

No in fact both you and Anna are sorely wrong. Before Trent there was debate and a difference of opinion as to what the cannon was. After Trent there was no difference of opinion no debate. It was at Trent that the Catholic cannon was settled long after the Jewish cannon was closed by the Jews. BTW the oracles of God were intrusted to the Jews.
No less of an authority than Jerome believed that the Apocrapha was not part of the cannon. He didnt get the memo that the cannon was closed.

DEAR Hiswalone,

Let us not forget that all of the Apostles were Jewish, so Jesus handed his earthly Church over to a fellow Jew, Simon Kephas.

jpaul1953

 

[benedictus2]

No in fact both you and Anna are sorely wrong. Before Trent there was debate and a difference of opinion as to what the cannon was. After Trent there was no difference of opinion no debate. It was at Trent that the Catholic cannon was settled long after the Jewish cannon was closed by the Jews. BTW the oracles of God were intrusted to the Jews.
No less of an authority than Jerome believed that the Apocrapha was not part of the cannon. He didnt get the memo that the cannon was closed.

Not quite right. The books that was set at Carthage were the same that was dogmatized at Trent. The reason it was only dogmatized at Trent was because prior to Luther trying to come up with his own canon (the total audacity of the man) there was no need for it being dogmatized because everyone accepted it, It is only when something is questioned that it finally gets defined.

By the way, St Jerome died in 420, the council of Carthage was in 397, the canon was dogmatized as closed in 1546. So Jerome could be forgiven for not being aware of an event that happened 1200 years later after his death.

 

[Mosacked]

Mosacked:

Specifically, what study have you done regarding the history of the Biblical Cannon and the history of the transmission of Scripture? It would be helpful to know this.

Anna

Anna, can you answer me? Did the Bible come from God?

Do you thank Judas for for helping Jesus to be crucified?
Do you think if there’s no Judas, Jesus cannot be crucified to fulfil the Salvation grace?
Do you believe that it was all because of the Romans that today we have Christianity?

You see, there are MANY ‘vessels’, legitimate or illegitimate that are used in the conveyance of scripture. NONE of these, whether they have a part in compiling, transferring or communicating can claim any credit…because without these, God’s will, will STILL be done. The word of God will reach us because God loves us.

So, like it or not, the Catholics…did NOT give us the Bible. God DID.

.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

Anna, can you answer me? Did the Bible come from God?..

…So, like it or not, the Catholics…did NOT give us the Bible. God DID.

I already answered this question and you ignored the answer - probably because my answer shoots your premise down in flames.

As I said: Yes, God gave us the Bible. And just as god worked through men to write the scriptures, he also worked through men to canonize the Bible, and those men were the Bishops in union with Pope Damasus I.

Its a fact.

And just as god worked through men to write the scriptures, he also worked through men to canonize the Bible, and those men were the Bishops in union with Pope Damasus I.

Thanks for proving my case