The Catholic church did not give us the Bible

[Ignatius]

Well, yes. For one thing, almost all anti-Catholics say the same thing, that God wrote the bible. He may have written the Ten Commandments but no, He did not write the bible. The bible was written by MEN who were inspired by the Holy Spirit. The NT was written by men of “the way” which later became know as the Catholic Church.

JustaServant;6000304 brought this From another thread:

One of the areas of Church history that has always fascinated me is the study of New Testament era chronology. Protestants act as if the Bible was written like a modern novel. Starting with Matthew on. However, the writing of the New Testament was not that cut and dry. As one puts together a timeline of Church history, including in that works written that are not included in the New Testament, one must reach a conclusion that the early Church was indeed Catholic. By the time the Gospel of John was written for example, the Church was already 50 years old (which forces a Catholic view of John 6). But more importantly, the Christians that lived at the time all have very Catholic views. Not a Baptist among them.I have concocted a timeline here deliberately within a 100 year period between the Resurrection of Christ to Justin Martyr (roughly 130 AD.) Think of it from World War 2 on. There are people still alive to remember the events.
I do not claim this timeline to be exact, but its pretty close:

c. 30-33 - The death and resurrection of Jesus
c. 35 - The conversion of Paul
40s or 50s - James c.
45-49 - Paul’s first missionary journey
Sometime between 48 and 58 - Paul writes Galatians
c. 50-53 - Paul’s second missionary journey
50s - Paul writes Titus
50s or 60s - Mark written (based on oral tradition set down by Peter).
50s or 60s - Matthew written
51 - Paul writes 1 and 2 Thessalonians
c. 53-57 - Paul’s third missionary journey
Spring of 55 - Paul writes 1 Corinthians
56 - Paul writes 2 Corinthians
c. 57 - Paul writes Romans
c. 60 - Paul writes Colossians, probably while in prison in Rome
c. 60 - Paul writes Philemon, probably while in prison in Rome
c. 60 - Paul writes Ephesians, probably while in prison in Rome
c. 61 - Paul writes Philippians, while in prison in Rome
Early 60s - Luke written
c. 60-70 - The Didache is written.
c. 62 - Paul is free
c. 62-64 - Luke writes Acts
c. 62-64 - Paul writes 1 Timothy July 18-19,
64 - The Great Fire of Rome. Emperor Nero blamed the Christians, and a great persecution ensued.
Mid 60s - 1 Peter written
c. 64-68 - Paul writes 2 Timothy from prison
c. 67-68 - 2 Peter
c. 68 - Hebrews is written June 9,
68 - The death of Nero. Sometime between the Great Fire of Rome and the death of Nero, both Peter and Paul were martyred.
c. 69 - Jude
70 - The Seige of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple
c. 70-80- The Epistle of Barnabus is written.
c. 85 - John written Late First Century - 1, 2, and 3 John
95- The Epistle of Clement is written…
c. 95-96 - John writes Revelation
c. 60-120- The writings of Papias (only fragments remain).
c. 105- The Epistles of Ignatius are written as he heads for Rome for execution.
c. 105-125- The Epistle of Polycarp is written.
c. 125-130- The Letter to Diognetus is written.
c. 125-130- The Epistle of Aristides is written.
c. 130- The Martyrdom of Polycarp is written.
c. 130-150- The Shepherd of Hermas is written.
c.100-165- The writings of Justin Martyr, much of it written in the 130s.

 

[Mosacked]

Originally Posted by ricko “Well, yes. For one thing, almost all anti-Catholics say the same thing, that God wrote the bible. He may have written the Ten Commandments but no, He did not write the bible. The bible was written by MEN who were inspired by the Holy Spirit. The NT was written by men of “the way” which later became know as the Catholic Church.”

---

It is pathetic that man himself could even attempt to find credit for the words written in Scripture. No wonder most of mankind are doomed.

On the day of judgement, many will be burning in hell and yet not know why they ended up there.

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[scottirey]

On the day of judgement, many will be burning in hell and yet not know why they ended up there.

.

On the contrary my friend. They will KNOW exactly WHY they ended up there. All will be revealed.

Honestly folks the argument is really rather pointless when both sides do not have at least some shared opinion to base both of their arguments off of.

We of the Catholic faith understand that the Bible is the inspired word of God written by men of great faith. We of the Catholic faith understand that before 397 AD there were many books floating around that were touted as scripture and most if not all written by men of great faith who were inspired by God. We of the Catholic faith understand that the Catholic Church guided by the Holy Spirit assembled the Bible from all of the books that were floating around at that time. We of the Catholic faith understand that the Bible is only a part of the puzzle and understand that history and tradition are as essential as scripture.

Protestantism by its very nature denies the above understandings. If protestantism did not deny the above understandings there would be no protestantism. Trying to debate this is an exercise in futility.

The only way a Catholic will be swayed is if he or she doubts or can not believe the above understandings and wants an alternative. The only way a protestant will be swayed is if he or she is open to the idea that the Catholic Church is the One True Church and that tradition plays just as important a role as scripture.

The whole debate is apples and oranges from the OP.

Yours in Christ,

Scott Irey

 

[benedictus2]

The issue of this thread is whether it is historically documented that The Catholic Church gave us the Bible…

Now, if you mean the tome I own, then I bought it. No one or no thing gave it to me. I paid $38.00 plus shipping/handling.

If you mean the Scriptures contained in it, then no - The Catholic Church had nothing to do with it. The Holy Spirit inspired it, penmen wrote it. The Catholic Church had nothing to do with a single letter of a single word of it.

Sorry but you are terribly wrong there.

From 51-125 AD the Bible was written by the Church that Christ founded. Yes, the one that was born at Pentecost, i.e. the Catholic Church. Peter, James, John, Paul, Mark, Luke, Matthew, Jude (the men who the Holy Spirit inspired to write the NT were members of Christ’s Church.

From 33 AD until 1500 there was only 1 Catholic Church. Your church came into existence 1500 years after Christ founded his church and is actually a branch of the Catholic Church.

You can deny this as much as you like but this is plain fact.

If you mean the list of books embraced as Scripture, then no - The Catholic Church had nothing to do with it. By the time ANYTHING did ANYTHING in that regard, that had largely already been done.

As I said above, when the books of the NT were being written there was only one Church, the Catholic Church. Read a little bit more history.

It is absurd to argue that The Catholic Church gave us The Ten Commandments as Moses brought them down the Mountain

True. But we never claimed that. The Ten Commandments is God’s law, only God can give that. But the Torah came to us through the Jews.

• The Catholic Church doesn’t even claim to have existed at the time (and not for nearly 1500 years after that) and yet those tablets were accepted as Scripture.

Wrong again. The tablets were not accepted as Scripture. The law written on the tablets is IN Scripture but it is not Scripture.

Jesus references “the Scriptures” some 450 years before ANYTHING did ANYTHING about this subject. Most denominations of the world have officially acknowledged the list of books regarded as Scripture (there’s nothing unique about The Catholic Church in that regard - mine did the same thing), but acknowledging a list of books is entirely unrelated to “giving us” the Bible.

Wrong again. Your church started when Luther started his revolt against the Catholic Church around 1536. And you know what, before he decided to start his own Church, Luther was a Catholic (Agustinian) monk. So just that little fact should alert you to the bigger fact that most denominations were not in existence when the canon of the Bible was set.

 

[AmericanJosiah]

Sorry but you are terribly wrong there.From 51-125 AD the Bible was written by the Church that Christ founded. Yes, the one that was born at Pentecost, i.e. the Catholic Church. Peter, James, John, Paul, Mark, Luke, Matthew, Jude (the men who the Holy Spirit inspired to write the NT were members of Christ’s Church.

I disagree…

1. The Catholic Church wrote noting in that time frame, or anything before that.
2. There is, obviously, zero evidence that all the books of the Bible were penned by people officially registered in congregations affiliated with The Catholic Church. We don’t even know who penned some of them, and obviously most of them were penned before even The Catholic Church itself claims it came into existence.

From 33 AD until 1500 there was only 1 Catholic Church. Your church came into existence 1500 years after Christ founded his church and is actually a branch of the Catholic Church.

Moot to the discussion of this thread.

I believe there STILL is only one holy catholic church - the communion of saints. When The Catholic Church came into existence is anther issue for another day and thread. By the way, my denomination came into existence in 1847 - but that’s entirely and completely irrelevant to whether it is historically substantiated that The Catholic Church gave us the Bible.

As I said above, when the books of the NT were being written there was only one Church, the Catholic Church. Read a little bit more history.

There is STILL only one church. But that’s not the issue before us. The question is whether it is historically substantiated that The Catholic Church gave us the Bible.

True. But we never claimed that. The Ten Commandments is God’s law, only God can give that. But the Torah came to us through the Jews.

Exactly. Thus you agree with me that The Catholic Church did not give us the Bible.

Unless you believe that The Ten Commandments is not a part of the Bible and should be removed, then the issue before us would be that in order for the oft-made Catholic claim to be true, The Catholic Church MUST have given us The Ten Commandments. You seem to agree with me that it did not.

Wrong again. Your church started when Luther started his revolt against the Catholic Church around 1536. And you know what, before he decided to start his own Church, Luther was a Catholic (Agustinian) monk. So just that little fact should alert you to the bigger fact that most denominations were not in existence when the canon of the Bible was set.

I disagree.

First of all, my denomination started in 1847. C.F.W. Walther is generally regarded as the founder.

You seem to not be aware that Luther was excommunicated. The Catholic Church split because Pope Leo split it. If you think that’s significant, take it up with him in Purgatory or Heaven or wherever you two might meet.

Thank you.

Pax

• Josiah

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[jmcrae]

There is, obviously, zero evidence that all the books of the Bible were penned by people officially registered in congregations affiliated with The Catholic Church.

If they were in union with the teachings of St. Peter and the other Apostles, then they were certainly “officially registered with” the Catholic Church. St. Paul was even writing letters to them, so they certainly had written records of their existence, and presumed that they were (or wanted to be) in full communion with themselves.

We don’t even know who penned some of them, and obviously most of them were penned before even The Catholic Church itself claims it came into existence.

We claim to have come into existence at the moment that Jesus said to Peter, “Upon this Peter I shall build My Church,” (Matthew 16:18-19) which we traditionally believe was during the year 33 AD (that is to say, during the last year of Jesus’ earthly life).

The first word of the New Testament was written down by St. Paul in one of his letters (whichever of them was the first one that he wrote), at some point during the 50s AD.

 

[Hiskid1973]

The first word of the New Testament was written down by St. Paul in one of his letters (whichever of them was the first one that he wrote), at some point during the 50s AD.

I’m willing to bet things were being recorded all along the way rather than starting during the 50"s. But I see what your trying to say…I can sorta see what Josiah’s trying to say…If we would say the “church”, led by the Spirit assembled the scriptures he would probably agree…The word “catholic” didn’t appear for around 100 years later…It was a description of the church not an official name…The description was one, holy, catholic…There was a church in Antioch…I’m willing to bet it wasn’t just one huge building they met in in Antioch, but a few places…They met in houses don’t forget…They were all part of the church…There where people who even said…I’m with Peter, I’m with Paul back then…Even through all that they remained together as one. At a point in time division happened and split the church in two…Then there was officially The capital “C” Catholic church and the Orthodox church…I think a lot see when they say the bible was assembled by the catholic church they take that as the capital “C” catholic church and not the small “c” church according to the whole. All the sees as one…peace to you…K

 

[Tantum_ergo]

No, all the ‘little churches’ and the sees were Catholic, catholic. . .little and small c. The Catholic Church of today is the same Catholic Church that came into existence when Christ revealed to Peter that He would build a Church.

Neither you nor Josiah can in any way prove that at point A there were a bunch of ‘separate’ 'churches (Christ founded A Church, not the 'alexandrian church and the Antiochian church and the church over in THIS town here). ALL the various members (Christian) wherever they met, whether they met in a church, a temple, or out in the fields, were Christians. . .CATHOLIC Christians. . from Pentecost onward.

 

[Ranp]

Correct! Regardless of if one uses a capital “C” or a small “c” it was the Catholic Church that started when Jesus gave the keys to Peter and it is still the same Catholic Church that exist today.

 

[Hiskid1973]

Correct! Regardless of if one uses a capital “C” or a small “c” it was the Catholic Church that started when Jesus gave the keys to Peter and it is still the same Catholic Church that exist today.

Guess that’s one answer we’ll find out for sure when we no longer see through the glass darkly…

 

[Hiskid1973]

Correct! Regardless of if one uses a capital “C” or a small “c” it was the Catholic Church that started when Jesus gave the keys to Peter and it is still the same Catholic Church that exist today.

Part of it anyway…

 

[Tantum_ergo]

“Blessed are you who have not seen but have believed. . .” Jesus wasn’t just saying this about those who never saw His physical body you know.

 

[Anna_Scott]

“Blessed are you who have not seen but have believed. . .” Jesus wasn’t just saying this about those who never saw His physical body you know.

We needed this about now.

Anna

 

[East_Anglican]

The Roman Catholic Church did not give us the Bible and Donatus was right.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The “Roman Catholic Church” is a label foisted on the Catholic Church in the 1600s as a slur by those with a vested interest to try to make it appear that said church was ‘only’ Roman.

The Catholic Church has a Latin rite and several other rites. But the official title of the Church which you and others persist in misnaming as 'only" “Roman Catholic” is "The Catholic Church.

 

[jmcrae]

The Roman Catholic Church did not give us the Bible and Donatus was right.

If Donatus was right (I assume you mean the founder of the Donatists in the fourth century; not the grammarian who tutored St. Jerome, since I see nothing to object to in the small amount of writings he left to us) then no one can be saved, since what he said was that, if the minister of the Sacrament is a sinner, then the Sacrament has no effect.

Since we are all sinners, this means that no Sacrament can have any effect - which means that no one can be saved. (Donatus had no concept of “faith alone” and would have objected even more strongly to the idea that a mere thought, being thought by a sinner, could have any effect towards salvation whatsoever, since he believed that the actions of sinners could have no effect.)

 

[Hiskid1973]

I have no problem with that…But still before the split they were all in accord…It wasn’t just what is now called the Catholic church…All sees get credit for it…

 

[jmcrae]

I have no problem with that…But still before the split they were all in accord…It wasn’t just what is now called the Catholic church…All sees get credit for it…

All of the sees were in full communion with the Bishop of Rome, back then. Most of them are still in full communion even today. There were only seven of them (out of many thousands) that split away during the 1000s AD.

For example, I live in Calgary, and I am under the Bishop of Calgary, but we are “Roman Catholic” because the Diocese (See) of Calgary is in full communion with the Bishop of Rome.

All of the Sees back then were also “Roman Catholic” - the Bishops of Hippo and Carthage were in full communion with the Bishop of Rome.

 

[Hiskid1973]

All of the sees were in full communion with the Bishop of Rome, back then. Most of them are still in full communion even today. There were only seven of them (out of many thousands) that split away during the 1000s AD.

I think the Orthodox might disagree with that statement…If there are any in this thread…

 

[ricko]

“Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains *. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

“And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. For every word which came forth from his mouth was fulfilled and will be fulfilled” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:2 [A.D. 155]).

“Where was [the heretic] Marcion, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago—in the reign of Antonius for the most part—and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherius, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled” (Demurrer Against the Heretics 30 [A.D. 200]).

The Church was being called Catholic as first documented in 110 A.D. The same Church that was called “the way” and that received the keys. It has been called the Catholic Church for almost 2,000 years now.*