The Catholic Church: East and West

[Deacon_Ed]

Coptic:

Deacon Ed,

While we have deacons in my church, I am under the impression that your role as a deacon is not the same as in mine. Could you explain any differences for me?

God Bless,
Elizabeth

Elizabeth,

If you are, indeed, a member of the Coptic Church the role of deacons between the Copts and the rest of the Eastern Catholic Churches is not much different. Liturgically, the role of the deacon (at least, in the Byzantine Rite) is to lead the people in prayer and to direct the priest in the celebration of the liturgy.

This role developed in the early church when the deacon was, usually, a businessman who could take over the administrative affairs of the church while the priest was a man chosen for his holiness. In fact, the priest usually could not read. Because the deacon did, he would read the Gospel. The priest would memorize the liturgy and the deacon would tell him when to do things. This is evident even today: “Give the blessing, Father” or “Bless the holy bread, Father.”

Deacons in the Latin Church take on additional roles since they may give blessings and baptize infants (remember, the Latin Church separates baptism from the other sacraments of initiation).

Deacon Ed

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Greg,

Thanks for your kind words. In spite of Tom’s accusations, I am not the least put off for myself. I am upset that someone would denigrate the office of deacon.

My Melkite parishioners would never think of calling me “Ed.” In fact, my Melkite pastor is very good about always calling me “Deacon” or, most time, “Father Ed.” If he’s using Arabic it’s always “Abouna Shemas” which literally translates as “Father assistant” but is the Arabic equivalent of “Father Deacon.”

I’m not into titles for myself, but notice that as we remove titles from the clergy we tend to also stop thinking of the clergy as people “set aside” for service to the community and, thereby, continue to tear down the sense of the sacred that is part and parcel of the Church and her sacred ministers (yes, that’s what the Church calls us – sacred ministers).

Again, thanks for your defense.

Deacon Ed

 

[Bleevrz3_16]

Exporter:

Deacon ED, thank you. I have been wondering for years why the Pope didn’t give certain US Bishops a phone call or a Registered Letter for thet Bishop to get over to Rome - post haste. I wondered why the Pope didn’t “spank” certain US Bishops for actions they have taken. But you explained it. You said the President of the US of A cannot call a govenor up on the carpet. I hope I understood that.

OUdave. Yes, I agree that what I believe about a Catholic group of Youths does not make it so. You named the Preacher by his first name. That is a big Red flag to me. What would you think if I were to say, Hey, come listen to Frank. Our Pastor’s first name is Frank, but we call him Father or Father Augustino,out of respect.

I suppose Bruce ( the Preacher) will look at the attendance of even three Catholics as a “one-shot chance” to put seeds of doubt into their minds about the Catholic Church.

Since Oklahoma has been for a long time a hot bed of Baptist operations, it is not surprising that you are a solid Baptist.
Bill

Hi Bill
You missunderstood who Bruce is, he is Bruce Marchiano and was a Hollywood actor. He played Jesus in the movie Mathew. Since playing that role he has given his lifes work to the Lord. He now travels around the country doing youth rallys. If you go to abouthimministries.org it will tell you more about the rally. As I have stated many times I’m NOT a Baptist. I belong to a Nondenominational church, we use the Bible as our guide.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.
p.s I live in Iowa and am only a Oklahoma football fan.

 

[HagiaSophia]

Deacon Ed:

I’m not into titles for myself, but notice that as we remove titles from the clergy we tend to also stop thinking of the clergy as people “set aside” for service to the community and, thereby, continue to tear down the sense of the sacred that is part and parcel of the Church and her sacred ministers (yes, that’s what the Church calls us – sacred ministers).

You are spot on! It’s hard for a parent to teach their child respect for the offices and stature of people in life, when the bishop tells the kid to call him Joe and the priest wants to be known as Jim.

None of us goes in to see our doctor and says “Hey Ted, I hurt here” - we don’t address the policeman at a traffic violation site as Tom, I didn’t speed, the other guy did - and I cannot imagine anyone walking up to Mother Teresa’s sisters and saying Susie, we have a sick patient at the door.

Having been educated in church schools, the first thing the good nuns taught us was “Mother or Sister” was the appropriate title, we stood when they entered a room. We did not treat them as a fellow playmate, and lo and behold, when you see older Catholics talking to their pastors or the nuns, and they are now of advanced age, it’s still Father this, Sister that.

I further add there is nothing more insulting to a person who asks that you not call them by a name only to have them lecture you on how you really ARE or ARE NOT what you wish to be called.

I can only say that having met the OP elsewhere he has always been civil and polite to others so I have the sense that he does not understand the stature and position you hold particularly as part of the Melkite Church and wrongfully attributes it to something else.

And btw thanks for all you do here you’ve been a real voice of clarity and teaching in many posts for me and I’m sure for others.

 

[Coptic]

Elizabeth,

If you are, indeed, a member of the Coptic Church the role of deacons between the Copts and the rest of the Eastern Catholic Churches is not much different. Liturgically, the role of the deacon (at least, in the Byzantine Rite) is to lead the people in prayer and to direct the priest in the celebration of the liturgy.

This role developed in the early church when the deacon was, usually, a businessman who could take over the administrative affairs of the church while the priest was a man chosen for his holiness. In fact, the priest usually could not read. Because the deacon did, he would read the Gospel. The priest would memorize the liturgy and the deacon would tell him when to do things. This is evident even today: “Give the blessing, Father” or “Bless the holy bread, Father.”

Deacons in the Latin Church take on additional roles since they may give blessings and baptize infants (remember, the Latin Church separates baptism from the other sacraments of initiation).

Deacon Ed

Thank you for your response. I don’t know if I clarified prior, but I am a Coptic Orthodox not Coptic Catholic…is your answer still the same?

You mentioned that the deacon directs the priest in the liturgy. I would probably not characterize that as a role in my church.The deacon assists the priest more so. As for the deacon leading the congregation in prayer, that is true.

In my church, there are many deacons during any given liturgy–like any where from 10+, and randing in age from probably 5 years old and up. Is that the same in your church?

Finally, the deacon does not perform Baptisms in my church.

My church also has another role–archdeacon. Do you have that role in your church?

As for the topic regarding titles, I would never in my wildest dreams address any of the priests in my church by his/her first name or even with a title such as Mr. Bishara and such. The priests are always given the title Abouna Angelos or Abouna Yohanna, or Abouna Antonious, etc.

God Bless,
Elizabeth

 

[Exporter]

“and after Jesus finished speaking to them, the disciples argued amongst themselves over who was the greatest and who deserved the most honor.”

Mister Ed seems to be focused on his title, his education, his honor, and his Rite (excuse me–his Church).

Thanks for the info…but its back to Christ and His Church for me. Good luck in your efforts to spread the word about the real nature of the Catholic Church and how your Rite (Church I mean, of course) fits into it.

I guess something you have learned today is humility…and that people everywhere will not automatically bow down before your title. Not a wasted day at all for you. This lesson in reality and humility will profit you greatly in the future. Your fellow parishners should notice the improvement in your attitude right away.

Your humble fellow servant in Christ,

Tom

---

Tom of Assisi, I am not smart enought to pin point what is wrong with your post, but something is wrong with it. You seem to have some animosity toward Decon Ed. Your Profile says you are Catholic, but your words don’t.

I have read many posts writen by Decon Ed and although I agree with him on all but one topic that he has writen about: his knowdge of the Roman Catholic Church is far better than mine, I respect his offerings.

If you knew the sacrifice that he has made to become a Deacon in the Catholic Church maybe you would have a different attitude. It took me over a month of reading his posts to come to my conclusion. He is a Deacon!:tiphat:

 

[anon50111284]

Deacon Ed:

I’ve requested that the thread be renamed

Done per Deacon Ed’s PM request.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Administrator:

Done per Deacon Ed’s PM request.

Dear Administrator:

Thank you!

Deacon Ed

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

I am very interested to locate the document which established the Melchites as the first Uniate Church. It is said to contain Rome’s agreement that they will accept as their belief only that which they believed at the time of Union. This has implications for doctrines such as Papal Infallibility, Purgatory, Immaculate Conception, etc. and the EWTN site on the Melchites accuses the Melchites of backpeddling on precisely these beliefs. See
ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/EASTRITE.TXT

Does anyone know where to find this document of Union?

Many thanks.

Here is the Catholic Encyclopedia web site on the Melchites
newadvent.org/cathen/10157b.htm

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Coptic:

Thank you for your response. I don’t know if I clarified prior, but I am a Coptic Orthodox not Coptic Catholic…is your answer still the same?

Yes, to a certain extent. See below after your comments.

You mentioned that the deacon directs the priest in the liturgy. I would probably not characterize that as a role in my church.The deacon assists the priest more so. As for the deacon leading the congregation in prayer, that is true.

Yes, in the Coptic Church the role of the deacon isnot to direct the priest so much as to lead the people. The direction that is given in the Byzantine Rite is absent in the Coptic Rite.

In my church, there are many deacons during any given liturgy–like any where from 10+, and randing in age from probably 5 years old and up. Is that the same in your church?

Are you sure you have deacons that young? It’s rare that anyone is ordained at that age. Normally we have altar servers at that age. We may also have subdeacons – but they are generally in their 20’s when they are ordained, although they could be much older.

Finally, the deacon does not perform Baptisms in my church.[/QUOTENor do the Byzantine Rite, but they do in the Larin Rite.

My church also has another role–archdeacon. Do you have that role in your church?

Yes, the Byzantine Church has both archdeacons and protodeacons. These are honorary titles given to deacons. There was, at one time, a position called “archdeacon” that was given to a priest, but this has fallen into disuse.

As for the topic regarding titles, I would never in my wildest dreams address any of the priests in my church by his/her first name or even with a title such as Mr. Bishara and such. The priests are always given the title Abouna Angelos or Abouna Yohanna, or Abouna Antonious, etc.

And that is what most people would do.

Deacon Ed

 

[Coptic]

Thank you for your response Deacon Ed.

Yes, we do have Deacons as young as five years old–they are so cute standing there. I think in your church being a Deacon is not just for anyone right? Whereas in my church there are not many restrictions on who can be ordained. They obviously don’t know everything and usually just stand there, but they do learn a lot if they are up there every Sunday with the older Deacons who direct them.

Another question, a little of topic, if you don’t mind. The Eastern Rite churches, they are more traditional and culture oriented, and are similar to their orthodox counter part right?

God Bless,
Elizabeth

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Coptic:

Thank you for your response Deacon Ed.

Yes, we do have Deacons as young as five years old–they are so cute standing there. I think in your church being a Deacon is not just for anyone right? Whereas in my church there are not many restrictions on who can be ordained. They obviously don’t know everything and usually just stand there, but they do learn a lot if they are up there every Sunday with the older Deacons who direct them.

Interesting. In the Coptic Catholic Church this is not the case…

Another question, a little of topic, if you don’t mind. The Eastern Rite churches, they are more traditional and culture oriented, and are similar to their orthodox counter part right?

With the exception of the Italo-Albanian Church and the Maronite Church all the rest of the Eastern Catholic Churches have an Orthodox equivalent and are, for the most part, very, very similar. Yes, there is a culture-related component to these Churches but, in the United States, there is some breakdown of that (with the notable exception of the Ukrainian Church).

Deacon Ed

 

[twf]

Tom: The Church bids you to honour her holy ministers. To deny a deacon his title is a breach of Church tradition, and could be taken as a sign of disregard for a sacred office instituted by the Apostles. I would suggest you reconsider your attitude towards this man of holy orders. Bishops are to be addressed as ‘bishop’ or ‘your excellency’, priests as ‘father’, and deacons as ‘deacon’ (or father deacon, in the Byzantine tradition). To address a cleric, whether he is a bishop, priest, or deacon, by his first name is highly disrespectful. Father Deacon Ed should not have to ask you to use his title—the Church expects it of you.
I’m sorry if my rebuke is a bit harsh…but your comments bothered me. Perhaps you simply didn’t understand that a deacon is to be address with the respect due the dignity of his sacred office—but now you do.

God bless you.

In Christ with Mary,
Tyler