The Catholic Church is God?

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Angainor:
Alright, but I still think there is room for some concern. I have heard Catholics say that they love the Church. Like the thread exploring the question “Is Eucharistic Adoration Idolotry?”, I think love for the Church herself represents another minor diversion from what is really important. To me, it seems Catholicism is full of this type of minor diversions from what is really important.
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Againor:

Jesus gave us a Church to help us find him and grow in him, and if need be, to drag us back to him.

The Thread “exploring the question” “Is Eucharistic Adoration Idolotry?” is one I didn’t participate in. I can tell you that it’s NOT! Because, our Lord Jesus is physically present in the Eucharist. So, when I Do Eucharistic Adoration, I’m worshipping my Lord Jesus who is present under the guise of bread.

It’s only idolotry if He’s NOT there, or if the being represented is a false god. Jesus is most definitely there, and that was defined by the same Church that gave us the Bible and the Creeds. And, Jesus is NOT a false god. He is the Lord of the Universe, the “Great I AM”, the one who was, who is and who is to come. He isn’t a false god, because He is God himself, born into human flesh of the Virgin Mary. And, that’s who’s inside the Tabernacle, and that’s who I adore and thank for my salvation and my life.

Who do you thank?

Blessings and Peace, Michael
 
I think Angainor does have a valid concern. God is intangible but the church is tangible, if not downright in-your-face. I suspect many Catholics are more concerned with what “the church” says about their behavior than what God says about it.

Before anyone tells me that obeying the church is, in fact, obeying God, that person will have to convince me that the local churches everywhere are operated by religious and lay leaders who perfectly follow the exact teachings of the church.

In this context, I’m talking about “church” as the wordly manifestation of the formal RCC; that is her real property, her bishops, religious and lay leaders, and her teachings, rules and procedures.

Alan
 
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AlanFromWichita:
I suspect many Catholics are more concerned with what “the church” says about their behavior than what God says about it.
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As we should be since Jesus gave His Church Authority over what is allowed and not allowed. What the Church says is a direct result of what God says.
 
Alan:

The Church is an organization made up of human beings, which means that most of the people speaking out on behalf of the Church and of Christ will be no better or worse than the rest of us.

We have only the right to demand that most of the leaders of the Church try to live up to the teachings they profess and that they try to discipline and appropriately deal with those who don’t.
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AlanFromWichita:
I think Angainor does have a valid concern. God is intangible but the church is tangible, if not downright in-your-face. I suspect many Catholics are more concerned with what “the church” says about their behavior than what God says about it.

Before anyone tells me that obeying the church is, in fact, obeying God, that person will have to convince me that the local churches everywhere are operated by religious and lay leaders who perfectly follow the exact teachings of the church.

In this context, I’m talking about “church” as the wordly manifestation of the formal RCC; that is her real property, her bishops, religious and lay leaders, and her teachings, rules and procedures.

Alan
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Meanwhile, Scripture and the Traditional of the Church over 2000 years make it clear that they ahve the Authority and the Obligation to speak out on behalf of Christ.

*Thus the word of the LORD came to me: Son of man, I have appointed you a watchman for the house of Israel. When you hear a word from my mouth, you shall warn them for me.

If I say to the wicked man, You shall surely die; and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his wicked conduct so that he may live: that wicked man shall die for his sin, but I will hold you responsible for his death.

If, on the other hand, you have warned the wicked man, yet he has not turned away from his evil nor from his wicked conduct, then he shall die for his sin, but you shall save your life.

If a virtuous man turns away from virtue and does wrong when I place a stumbling block before him, he shall die. He shall die for his sin, and his virtuous deeds shall not be remembered; but I will hold you responsible for his death if you did not warn him.

When, on the other hand, you have warned a virtuous man not to sin, and he has in fact not sinned, he shall surely live because of the warning, and you shall save your own life.*

Ezekiel 3: 17-21

*You, son of man, I have appointed watchman for the house of Israel; when you hear me say anything, you shall warn them for me.

If I tell the wicked man that he shall surely die, and you do not speak out to dissuade the wicked man from his way, he (the wicked man) shall die for his guilt, but I will hold you responsible for his death.

But if you warn the wicked man, trying to turn him from his way, and he refuses to turn from his way, he shall die for his guilt, but you shall save yourself.*

Ezekiel 33:7-9

This is one of very few admonitions that are repeated twice in Sacred Scripture. I would suspect that it’s important. I also would suspect that Ezekiel wasn’t perfect and might not have always lived up to the Laws of the Old Covenant as expressed in the Toral and the Midrash.

But, just like the Ezekiel then, the Catholic Bishops have a duty to tell, and they can’t let they imperfections keep them from doing their duty as commanded.

Blessings and Peace, Michael
 
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Angainor:
Alright, but I still think there is room for some concern. I have heard Catholics say that they love the Church. Like the thread exploring the question “Is Eucharistic Adoration Idolotry?”, I think love for the Church herself represents another minor diversion from what is really important. To me, it seems Catholicism is full of this type of minor diversions from what is really important.
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There realy is no room for concern. Read the mass, it’s all about Jesus. The Church worships Christ, the church would have to proclaim the Catholic Church the Messiah to validate your issues here. I worship the same Christ I did as a protestant in the CC, hes just more available in his ‘selected self founded through Peter promised Church’.

-D
 
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Angainor:
This is taken from [thread=42250]another thread[/thread]:

I stated that the Catholic Church would not accept me. You responded that God accepts me always.

I always suspected that some Catholics viewed the Catholic Church itself as god, but I never expected that answer.

Is Donna P unusual in her regard of the Catholic Church?
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God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. - “They” are God. Jesus who is God the Son started the Catholic Church who is His Bride. We are nothing without God. God is who we follow. So the Catholic Church herself is pure even tho there may be people who are not pure. So I can answer that God always accepts you when you talk about the Catholic Church and whether she loves and accepts you.

God Bless,
Donna
 
Perhaps it is a matter of semantics, but I did not read her post in the same manner as you.:confused:

I know that for many years I believed it was my right to be accepted exactly as I was, irregardless of the faith, dogma or doctrine of any organization. I felt that if that group did not conform to my way of thinking then the fault was with them, not with me, and therefore they were “not accepting me”. They were exclusive, not inclusive, and so at fault.:rolleyes:

As I matured, my thinking matured. I realize each day that I may be what I am and have no desire to change but if that is so then I must be willing to accept the responsibility that goes along with my decisions, my actions and my thoughts. If those are at odds with my Church and my religious beliefs and I feel it impossible to change, conform or humble myself to my Church’s authority it is not the fault of that authority. It is my choice.

I know that God loves all of us - despite our actions, our choices, our beliefs or our decisions. To want to be “rubber stamped” with ACCEPTANCE is childish.
But this is just my opinion…what do I know?😃
 
Angainor,

I’m trying to be charitable, but your question makes me wonder if you’re really sincere with your question. You write, “Like the thread exploring the question “Is Eucharistic Adoration Idolotry?”, I think love for the Church herself represents another minor diversion from what is really important.” I don’t think you really responded to the explanations given to you on that thread, and I got the feeling after a short while (maybe because my questions were never answered) that you weren’t interested in understanding why Catholics believe what they believe, but rather you just wanted to grouse a bit at Catholics. You never really explained why worshipping Jesus in the Sacrament was a “diversion” from worshipping Jesus. Even if you don’t think that the Eucharist is Jesus, at least allow that since we believe it is, then there is no “diversion”. Now, you say that, “the Catholic Church would not accept me”, when in fact it’s YOU who won’t accept the Church. Why are you throwing your rejection onto the Church? If you don’t understand why the Catholic Church sees herself as the church Jesus founded, then at least ask the relevant questions if you’re sincerely interested. You will find plenty of good people here who can explain why we believe what we do. But please don’t whine and complain that the Church is rejecting you.
 
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AlanFromWichita:
… Before anyone tells me that obeying the church is, in fact, obeying God, that person will have to convince me that the local churches everywhere are operated by religious and lay leaders who perfectly follow the exact teachings of the church.

In this context, I’m talking about “church” as the wordly manifestation of the formal RCC; that is her real property, her bishops, religious and lay leaders, and her teachings, rules and procedures.

Alan
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Hi Alan,

I thought I’d take a moment to toss in my allegorical tale to illustrate just how God uses obedience to the Church’s Authority to build us into better people, even when the “Authority” appears to be out of line, perhaps even “way off base”.

I was teaching CCD to a group of 2nd graders. I’d moved up with them from 1st grade, so I’d established quite a bond with “my babies” as I nurtured them through their catechesis. Midway through 2nd grade, early January to be more specific, the cancer attacking one of the mothers came out of remission and it looked to be imminently terminal. I made arrangements with a number of Parish mom’s who had children in class with each of her children, so that dinners would be provided for the family several days per week.

On February 6, 2003, I arrived to prep for my class and was informed that the mother was not expected to make it through the day, the son had been called home from school to bid his mother goodbye and he would be missing class as a result. I immediately asked how I should address the subject with the children. “Don’t” I was told, “They are too young for you to discuss the subject of death with them. Don’t get into it.” In case you don’t know by my writing, I tend to talk, especially when something important needs to be discussed. So this was torture.

It only got worse when I went to the school bus to get the kids for class. “Mrs. S, Mrs. S., Sean’s mom is going home to be with Jesus and he went home to say good by to her.” They all clammered about me, wanting to share this most important news, and I had been told not to engage the subject. I looked to the heavens and prayed, “please Holy Spirit help, I don’t know what to do. It’s up to you, please lead me, let me do your will.” I allowed the kids to talk on the subject, but I remained mute as I ushered them into the kitchen to start with snack. We returned to our classroom, said Grace and I asked them to eat quietly while I ran quickly to the office.

The Rosary, this was the Catholic response to a family crisis. What better response could I have with the children, but to teach them the beauty, power and importance of this powerful weapon against the enemy. What’s interesting is I do not believe I had ever actually prayed the rosary before this. If I had, it would have been as part of a classroom exercise and I hadn’t been open to the grace it imparts. But this afternoon, with a classroom full of 2nd graders, we prayed the entire 5 decades of the Joyous Mysteries for Sean’s mother and their family.

Tina, Sean’s mom, lived for the remainder of the day and woke to have the conversations with her children that she had been putting off, for fear of frightening them. She had not previously been open with them regarding the extent of the cancer and the possibility that she might not survive. When the children from school heard that Sean’s mom was still alive, they immediately attributed it to being a miracle. The DRE scoffed at the thought, but I refuse to steal a miracle from the children by explaining it away.

What I know is that something good came from my obeying even when I “KNEW” that the request was the wrong way to approach the situation. I look back on it now and realize that these children had an opportunity to participate in something that was life changing for Sean’s family and for themselves. The following week they prayed the Rosary again, this time the brand new Luminous Mysteries and at Tina’s funeral service the Sorrowful Mysteries were said. Then in May we did a Living Rosary Procession for Mary and said the Glorious Mysteries and they were enrolled in the order of the Brown Scapular.

All in all, I’m glad I obeyed, even though there are many ways in which I could make a case that the DRE is not the most holy of persons. But she has been given her position and she hold authority over those who teach. She was not asking me to do something which was against Faith or Morals so I was obliged to follow her lead.

God Bless,

CARose
 
Sherlock:Well said and quite probably true

But I’ve found the Catholic Faith and the Catholic Church are solid enough to allow for a certain amount of grousing and complaining. It’s just that we ( or should I say I) have to stop it at some point and accept what the Church and the hierarchy (the people in charge) have decided.
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Sherlock:
Angainor,

I’m trying to be charitable, but your question makes me wonder if you’re really sincere with your question. You write, “Like the thread exploring the question “Is Eucharistic Adoration Idolotry?”, I think love for the Church herself represents another minor diversion from what is really important.” I don’t think you really responded to the explanations given to you on that thread, and I got the feeling after a short while (maybe because my questions were never answered) that you weren’t interested in understanding why Catholics believe what they believe, but rather you just wanted to grouse a bit at Catholics. You never really explained why worshipping Jesus in the Sacrament was a “diversion” from worshipping Jesus. Even if you don’t think that the Eucharist is Jesus, at least allow that since we believe it is, then there is no “diversion”. Now, you say that, “the Catholic Church would not accept me”, when in fact it’s YOU who won’t accept the Church. Why are you throwing your rejection onto the Church? If you don’t understand why the Catholic Church sees herself as the church Jesus founded, then at least ask the relevant questions if you’re sincerely interested. You will find plenty of good people here who can explain why we believe what we do. But please don’t whine and complain that the Church is rejecting you.
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I don’t the Protestant Churches can stand nearly as much,. and that they usually split on far less.

Blessings and Peace, Michael
 
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Angainor:
Greetings Robert in SD,

I’m not sure what to think. [post=489713]Gilbert Keith[/post] certianly makes it sound that he thinks “In that sense the Church is in God and God is in the Church.”
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God is in the Church, and the Church is in God - much as Jesus tells His disciples to “abide in Him” - that does not mean they are Him, nor that He is them.​

Dwelling in Christ by faith, hope & charity does not make them Christ Himself - nor does St. Paul, who uses the phrase "in Christ " 160 times ever say that Christians are Christ. They very obviously are not. ##
 
Gottle of Geer said:
## God is in the Church, and the Church is in God - much as Jesus tells His disciples to “abide in Him” - that does not mean they are Him, nor that He is them.

Dwelling in Christ by faith, hope & charity does not make them Christ Himself - nor does St. Paul, who uses the phrase "in Christ " 160 times ever say that Christians are Christ. They very obviously are not. ##
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Matt:

How do you deal with this:

*Now Saul, still breathing murderous threats against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, that, if he should find any men or women who belonged to the Way, he might bring them back to Jerusalem in chains.

On his journey, as he was nearing Damascus, a light from the sky suddenly flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?"

He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. Now get up and go into the city and you will be told what you must do."

The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, for they heard the voice but could see no one.

Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing; so they led him by the hand and brought him to Damascus.*

Acts 9:1-8 NAB

vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PY3.HTM

And this?

*Now the body is not a single part, but many.

If a foot should say, “Because I am not a hand I do not belong to the body,” it does not for this reason belong any less to the body. Or if an ear should say, “Because I am not an eye I do not belong to the body,” it does not for this reason belong any less to the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole body were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?

But as it is, God placed the parts, each one of them, in the body as he intended. If they were all one part, where would the body be? But as it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

The eye cannot say to the hand, “I do not need you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I do not need you.”

Indeed, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are all the more necessary, and those parts of the body that we consider less honorable we surround with greater honor, and our less presentable parts are treated with greater propriety, whereas our more presentable parts do not need this. But God has so constructed the body as to give greater honor to a part that is without it, so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another. If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy.

Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it.*

I Corintians 12: 14-27 NAB

vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PZH.HTM#7A

Michel, that sounds a lot more intimate than you are allowing for in your post.

Blessings and Peace, Michael
 
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LSK:
I know that for many years I believed it was my right to be accepted exactly as I was, irregardless of the faith, dogma or doctrine of any organization. I felt that if that group did not conform to my way of thinking then the fault was with them, not with me, and therefore they were “not accepting me”. They were exclusive, not inclusive, and so at fault.:rolleyes:

As I matured, my thinking matured. I realize each day that I may be what I am and have no desire to change but if that is so then I must be willing to accept the responsibility that goes along with my decisions, my actions and my thoughts. If those are at odds with my Church and my religious beliefs and I feel it impossible to change, conform or humble myself to my Church’s authority it is not the fault of that authority. It is my choice.
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Amen. I went through a somewhat similar process as I went through RCIA last year. I struggled with many of the Church’s social teachings before finally coming to accept them. My RCIA teacher said one thing to me that has really stuck with me. I talked to him one night after class about the struggle I was having between what I had always believed about these issues (which I got from society, as I had never had an religious instruction) and what I was learning in RCIA. He said “Your job is not to determine how you feel about these issues, but to determine how God feels about them.” Once you do that, humility follows.
 
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