The Catholic Church is just another denomination

[believers]

why don’t you back up a few verses and see that Peter is talking about water.- H2O

Ok… I won’t just use part of a verse like you did. Here’s a whole listing of verses…

Mat 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water UNTO repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Luk 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, PREACHING the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, AND preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Act 10:37 That word, *, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John PREACHED;

Act 13:24 When John had first PREACHED before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

Act 18:25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.

Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should BELIEVE ON HIM which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Act 19:5
When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus

Act 19:6
And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Act 19:7
And all the men were about twelve.

(Remember, Paul said in 1Cr 1:17, "For Christ sent me NOT TO baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.)

1Pe 3:21
The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also NOW save us (NOT the putting away of the filth of the flesh (water baptism), but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1Cr 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Mar 16:15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Mar 16:16
He that BELIEVETH and is baptized (refers to the baptism of the Holy Ghost) shall be saved; but he that BELIEVETH NOT shall be damned.

Mar 3:29
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

You are baptized with the Holy Ghost when you BELIEVE that Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross for ALL of your sins, was buried, and rose from the dead by the power of God. The only way to be covered by the blood is to BELIEVE and that is the gift. Remember, the wages for sin is death, and Jesus paid our debt in full with His blood.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:*

 

[Grace_Seeker]

The Catholic Church, which Christ established for all of us, is not an “earthly organization”. Christ rules as its’ head from His throne in Heaven. He rules over the entire Church; the Church Triumphant in Heaven, the Church Suffering in Purgatory, and by the guidance of His Holy Spirit (of which He gave His eternal promise to us) through His chosen leaders - the apostles and their successors, the Church Militant here on Earth.

This was the understanding of the early Christians. This was the understanding of the Early Church Fathers. This has been the consistently held belief of ALL Christians throughout history until men, in recent times, decided they wanted to make up their own religions.

“Any who reject you reject me and the One who sent me”.

“Anyone who preaches a different Gospel…let him be anathema”

If you remove the first sentence from what you have written I believe all that you have said with respect to the Church. What I disagree with is the Catholic Church self-identification as the only lviing representative of the Church which Jesus Christ founded. I believe it to be just one of many physical manifestations of the militant Church of Jesus Christ. That is why I asked the questions about whether the Church of Jesus Christ would cease to exist if the Catholic Church ceased to exist.

If you think that it would, then you must be equating the two Catholic Church and the Church of Christ to be one and the same – therefore there are none who are part of the Church of Jesus Christ apart from also being part of the Catholic Church. If you think that it would not, then you admit that there is something that is a part of the Church of Jesus Christ that is not a part of the Catholic Church.

Now for me, when I think of the Catholic Church, I think of the earthly organization, with the Pope as the earthly leader of the organization. It appears that this is not a view shared by those who call themselves Catholic. To them, the Catholic Church is bigger than that. So, please, expalin to me what the Catholic Church is, what all/who all does it encompass?

 

[jmcrae]

The traditional Jewish canon was divided into three sections (Law, Prophets, Writings), and an unusual feature of the last section was the listing of Chronicles out of historical order, placing it after Ezra-Nehemiah and making it the last book of the canon. In light of this, the words of Jesus in Luke 11:50-51 reflect the settled character of the Jewish canon (with its peculiar order) already in his day. Christ uses the expression “from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah,” which appears troublesome since Zechariah was not chronologically the last martyr mentioned in the Bible (Jer. 26:20-23). However, Zechariah is the last martyr we read of in the Old Testament according to Jewish canonical order (II Chron. 24:20-22), which was apparently recognized by Jesus and his hearers.

The scrolls of the Scriptures at the time of Jesus had not yet been collected to be put into one book. They weren’t in any particular order. Also, at the time of Jesus, there were 46 of them; not 39.

Seven of them were removed from the box of scrolls by the Council of Jamnia in the year 90 AD, for the same reasons that they also rejected the New Testament.

 

[burnside]

The original word was in Aramaic.That is,Kepha,which means Rock.

 

[believers]

The scrolls of the Scriptures at the time of Jesus had not yet been collected to be put into one book. They weren’t in any particular order. Also, at the time of Jesus, there were 46 of them; not 39.

Seven of them were removed from the box of scrolls by the Council of Jamnia in the year 90 AD, for the same reasons that they also rejected the New Testament.

False. The Jews had the Old Testament. If you’d like to believe otherwise thats your choice. There are only 66 books in the bible according to God. According to your religion there are 73. I choose to believe God. Believe what you want.

 

[believers]

The original word was in Aramaic.That is,Kepha,which means Rock.

That’s nice and all… but GOD (Holy Ghost) wrote that in Greek.

Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Believe what you want. Good luck

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Sounds Catholic to me

So, am I Catholic in your view of what it means to be Catholic?

You keep writing of my beliefs and tell me that they sound Catholic to you. Yet you know that I obviously don’t look to the Pope as having any governmental authority over me by virtue of his office, even as I respect the man who occupies that office and would find him to a legitimate leader of moral character serving as a guide to Christians of all backgrounds.

 

[nerfherder]

Indeed, I am not worthy in any manner of the graces of God. However, what I have written is the true teaching of the Catholic Church:

Yes, because there is only One Church, One Lord, One faith, One baptism. There is no other Church except the one Christ founded. If any have established what they believe is such a thing, then it is counterfeit, and is not, in truth, part of the Body of Christ.

You have chosen your words carefully. This is I believe the teaching of the Catholic Church. For clarification, does this indeed mean specifically:

(1) one church = the universal catholic church, **or **RCC?
(2) one Lord = Yaweh, the God of all Christians, **or **the Lord as defined by RCC?
(3) one faith = the ‘Christian’ faith, **or **the ‘Catholic Christian’ faith?
(4) one baptism = believers’ baptism into Christ, **or **baptism and confirmation into the RCC?

Did Christ found the Church of Rome - the Roman Catholic Church - or did he found the universal catholic church - the body of Christ?

Are all other major Christian denominations ‘counterfeit’, in your interpretation or opinion or according to the doctrine of the Church of Rome?

Are you telling me, dear friend, that having been cradled in the Christian church - Canadian Convention Baptist, mainstream, conservative, founded by dour Scots in Canada in the 1830s - and baptised (total immersion) at 12, having worked in Africa for forty years according to the examples and values taught by Christ and now contemplating conversion, I have been utterly mislead? That I am not, and never have been a Christian? That I am not one of those who might, just might have a look-in at heaven (whatever)? That I am a counterfeit Christian, belonging to a counterfeit Church?

Are you truly saying that over 100 million Christians worldwide are in the same bag - counterfeit believers, not worthy to wash His feet - or yours, as the Real Thing? Truly?

I am aware this discussion has been going to and fro for pages and pages, ages and ages. Let’s just recap with your reply here.

Ever,

 

[MrS]

Ok… I won’t just use part of a verse like you did. Here’s a whole listing of verses…

Mat 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water UNTO repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Luk 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, PREACHING the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins; This is John’s Baptism… but a nice cut and paste anyway

Mar 1:4 John did **baptize in the wilderness, AND **preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Act 10:37 That word, , ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John PREACHED;

Act 13:24 When John had first PREACHED before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

Act 18:25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.

Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should BELIEVE ON HIM which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Act 19:5
When they heard [this], they were baptized …in the name of the Lord Jesus

Act 19:6
And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Act 19:7
And all the men were about twelve.

(Remember, Paul said in 1Cr 1:17, "For Christ sent me NOT TO baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.)

1Pe 3:21
The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also NOW save us (NOT the putting away of the filth of the flesh (water baptism), but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1Cr 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Mar 16:15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature…baptizing them in the name…

Mar 16:16
He that BELIEVETH and is baptized (refers to the baptism of the Holy Ghost-nope…ask Nicodemus)) shall be saved; but he that BELIEVETH NOT shall be damned.

Mar 3:29
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

You are baptized with the Holy Ghost when you BELIEVE that Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross for ALL of your sins, was buried, and rose from the dead by the power of God. The only way to be covered by the blood is to BELIEVE and that is the gift. Remember, the wages for sin is death, and Jesus paid our debt in full with His blood.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:…the next 2+ verses are of utmost importance … please re-read

 

[sterryfamily]

Your Church didn’t give us the bible… God did. Would you like to know why I subscribe to only 66 books in the bible?

Let’s see what God has to say about that.

Rom 3:1-2
What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision?
Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Luk 24:44
And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.

Jesus said “psalms” not writing.

Luk 11:51
From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

The traditional Jewish canon was divided into three sections (Law, Prophets, Writings), and an unusual feature of the last section was the listing of Chronicles out of historical order, placing it after Ezra-Nehemiah and making it the last book of the canon. In light of this, the words of Jesus in Luke 11:50-51 reflect the settled character of the Jewish canon (with its peculiar order) already in his day. Christ uses the expression “from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah,” which appears troublesome since Zechariah was not chronologically the last martyr mentioned in the Bible (Jer. 26:20-23). However, Zechariah is the last martyr we read of in the Old Testament according to Jewish canonical order (II Chron. 24:20-22), which was apparently recognized by Jesus and his hearers.

Catholics use the Greek Septuagint that Christ and the apostles used. Why would we go with a Jewish canon that was determined (with anti-Christian bias) thirty some-odd years after Christ’s ascension? We’ll stick with what our Lord gave us.

 

[jmcrae]

That’s nice and all… but GOD (Holy Ghost) wrote that in Greek.

The Apostle Matthew wrote it in Greek.

Do you think that the Bible (words on a page) has greater authority than the Word of God, Jesus Christ?

The Word of God is the person Jesus Christ; not words written on a page. The words on the page inerrantly record the doings and sayings of the Word of God (Jesus Christ the person) but they do not, therefore, gain greater authority than Him.

 

[believers]

MrS:
There are two types of baptism…

John did water baptism unto repentance. Jesus does baptism of the Holy Ghost by belief and repentance. They are not the same.

Again, water baptism DOES NOT save.

 

[MrS]

So, am I Catholic in your view of what it means to be Catholic?

You keep writing of my beliefs and tell me that they sound Catholic to you. Yet you know that I obviously don’t look to the Pope as having any governmental authority over me by virtue of his office, even as I respect the man who occupies that office and would find him to a legitimate leader of moral character serving as a guide to Christians of all backgrounds.

Yep, sounds non-Catholic to me

Seriousely, I don’t consider you Catholic by any means. As to your Christianity, only God knows your heart as you walk with the Lord.

But we are supposed to try to know God with our whole heart, our mind, our strength… That is tough for some, and impossible for most if outside the Catholic Church.

 

[believers]

The Apostle Matthew wrote it in Greek.

Do you think that the Bible (words on a page) has greater authority than the Word of God, Jesus Christ?

The Word of God is the person Jesus Christ; not words written on a page. The words on the page inerrantly record the doings and sayings of the Word of God (Jesus Christ the person) but they do not, therefore, gain greater authority than Him.

According to God… I belong to His church because I am the “whosoever that believes”. Not the whosoever gets water baptized and gets indoctrinated with something other than God’s Word. I joined his church when I believed in the finished work of Jesus on cross, His death, and the power of His resurrection. I am baptized with the Holy Ghost because I believe and repent.

 

[MrS]

The Apostle Matthew wrote it in Greek.

Do you think that the Bible (words on a page) has greater authority than the Word of God, Jesus Christ?

The Word of God is the person Jesus Christ; not words written on a page. The words on the page inerrantly record the doings and sayings of the Word of God (Jesus Christ the person) but they do not, therefore, gain greater authority than Him.

Actuall Matthew was first written in Aramaic… as vertually all scholars will confirm …

believers:

How wise the Holy Spirit… to have that verse Mt 16:18 in a language that does not allow for the Protestant misuse of the words …

Even my Baptist friends have long dropped this poor and erroneous argument for denying Peter being the Rock

 

[jmcrae]

False. The Jews had the Old Testament.

The Old Testament is not a book. It’s a set of books. They weren’t bound into one volume until after 380 AD, when St. Jerome translated them into Latin and put them (together with the New Testament) into a single codex (what we would recognize as “a book”). Prior to that, the Old Testament was a box of 46 scrolls.

If you’d like to believe otherwise thats your choice. There are only 66 books in the bible according to God.

You haven’t come anywhere close to demonstrating that.

 

[MrS]

According to God… I belong to His church because I am the “whosoever that believes”. Not the whosoever gets water baptized and gets indoctrinated with something other than God’s Word. I joined his church when I believed in the finished work of Jesus on cross, His death, and the power of His resurrection. I am baptized with the Holy Ghost because I believe and repent.

you might belong to the Body of Christ… because of your water and Holy Spirit baptism…

but

you sure don’t belong to the one Church founded by Jesus

 

[DobleGG]

Ok, looks like the topic is Baptism: Is it necessary for salavation? I wonder why it was necessary for Jesus to be baptized with water by John? Hmm

 

[believers]

Actuall Matthew was first written in Aramaic… as vertually all scholars will confirm …

believers:

How wise the Holy Spirit… to have that verse Mt 16:18 in a language that does not allow for the Protestant misuse of the words …

Even my Baptist friends have long dropped this poor and erroneous argument for denying Peter being the Rock

I’ll believe the Word of God. You believe the so called scholars. I wonder if they were Catholic too.

And… I don’t know of any baptist that believes Peter was the Rock. Jesus is the rock. There can’t be two rocks.

1Cr 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

 

[DobleGG]

(Salvation). Indeed when you are thirsty, the thought of water can make you salavate.