The Catholic Church is just another denomination

[nerfherder]

Great! You went on the internet and got some good facts. Congrats.

OK, so you went to your textbooks, and got some facts. Congrats.

 

[nerfherder]

No, it’s not an opinion. He was stating a historical fact, which he most likely found in the writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch (who died in 110 AD).

That some people doubt the evidence of history (and thus, have opinions about it) doesn’t suddenly cause the facts themselves to become opinions.

PS: This being a Catholic Board, he is also allowed to express the opinions of the Catholic Church anyway, since the purpose of this Board is to promulgate the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Then promulgate as much as you wish. I am learning from the promulgation.

 

[nerfherder]

I was not aware that Muslims had the tradition of taking god parents. What promises did you make on their behalf (and how do you hope to keep these promises, if you succeed in becoming Catholic)?

Why should it make a difference if I am a Catholic or not. I am also godparent to a Chinese child, two Zambian Catholic children, one Malawian child. I take my responsibilities seriously.

What I have confidence in is that the method of selection is authoritative in the view of its interpretive community. What I, personally, think of the idea of reincarnation has no bearing on the matter.

The issue was the questiion of believing in the supernatural.

If the historicity of the Papacy is true, then so are its claims, since its claims are based on its historicity.

I suggested the history if the papacy is not in much doubt - but remember the Avignon schism and a bit of falling about during that period.

The papacyVatican can claim all it wants, and although its views are highly respected by many Christians of all denominations worldwide, that does not mean that they are bound by its views.

 

[nerfherder]

No, it’s not an opinion. He was stating a historical fact, which he most likely found in the writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch (who died in 110 AD).

That some people doubt the evidence of history (and thus, have opinions about it) doesn’t suddenly cause the facts themselves to become opinions.

PS: This being a Catholic Board, he is also allowed to express the opinions of the Catholic Church anyway, since the purpose of this Board is to promulgate the teachings of the Catholic Church.

You have opinions on many things, even things about which you know very little. I have opinions too, to which I am entitled. I am sure that we all base our opinions on what our life experience has been, evidence of various kinds, and observations, processed then by brain and heart. However, an opinion remains and opinion, and the supremacy of the RCC is a matter of opinion only, in my opinion.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Go look up Iowa Mike’s other postings: it is not only to this one that I refer. Caritas is lacking. Why would one - at his kind invitation - remain on a Forum with him? Surely this is hypocritical in itself?

I was reading some material last night and found two interesting Spiritual Works of Mercy. As well as the works of admonishing sinners and instructing the ignorant is the requirement to counsel the doubtful and be patient with those in error. I see plenty of the former two on this forum, but not nearly as much of the latter two.

 

[nerfherder]

=Iowa Mike;2084418]

I simply cannot lock in on what your beliefs are. Scripturally the evidence that Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church is **overwhelming **and there is no doubt that Protestantism came along some 1500 years later with the **heresy **of Luther. When Luther left the Catholic Church he took the bible with him or at least most of it. In his heresy he tried to **tailor **it to his views by declaring 7 books that didn’t support his teachings as ‘not inspired’. Through the doctrine of ‘sola scriptura’, Luther could interprete scripture in **whatever way best supported his teachings, much in the same as I believe you do. ** Doctrinal unity is what clearly sets the Catholic Church apart from Protestant denominations. Sola Scriptura is the reason there is no **unity within Protestantism **and has resulted in thousands of Protestant denominations. But, even within a single denomination e.g. the Baptists, beliefs vary widely because each Baptist church interprets scripture differently; they simply all cannot be correct.

Catholics believe that the Church is led by the Holy Spirit through the **infallability **of the Pope in matters of faith and morals; the result - The One True Church. Iowa Mike

Good for you. I have noted words/phrases that are difficult for others of us to accept or understand. Insistence on certain beliefs will not help you case.

The heresy of Luther
No matter what one says about Luther and the Reformation, RCC adherents seem to be immoveable - and never, ever mention the reason Luther ‘revolted’ in favour of a reformation of Christianity. This seems to have been a one-sided Reformation. But then what was reformed, if not the Catholic Church? Or are history books rewritten specially for you?

I simply cannot lock in on what your beliefs are.
I have told you repeatedly I am a learner Catholic, but not a learner Christian. Perhaps you do not have enough information about Christianity and Christ?

**Evidence Christ established the Catholic Church is overwhelming **.
You may believe this, but as others have pointed out, the Bible does not make this case although the Vatican does. And even so, the peeling away of Christians from the Catholic Church does not hark back to Christ’s lifetime, but to the condition of the Vatican and the Church generally at the time of the reformation. Reformation has a meaning: it means to reform.

In his heresy he tried to tailor the Bible to his views
This is not true. He gave up trying to convince the Vatican (information from a Catholic canon lawyer) and moved on. It was never heretical (it was not a heterodoxy - the word heretical is no longer in use in informed Catholic circles), and led a movement away from a Church in decline, a faith in decline and disparate from Christian believers.

Luther could interpret scripture in **whatever way best supported his teachings, much in the same as I believe you do. **
Yes, that is what he taught: that each believer could access the Bible for themselves in their own language. It is only recently, after Vatican II that the RCC reached this conclusion. Yes, I believe I have a right to understand and be with Christ on His terms as I understand them. I can think about my relationship with him, on the basis of my reading of the Scriptures. I believe that I do not need to be told what to believe - a rationalist, a radical transformation! - but am willing to be guided, mentored, taught, informed. That is the duty of every Christian - to grow in faith.

**unity within Protestantism **
Refer World Council of Churches, and relationship of RCC to it for over 40 years.

thousands of Protestant denominations.
Get over this perception of thousands of reformed denominations.

They simply all cannot be correct
Maybe correct is not a useful word. They bring peace to their believers, in the same way that other non-Christian faiths comfort their believers, they make them better people, and they certainly gain them entrance to heaven and the loving care of God who created them. They are not separated from God and His Son.

Catholics believe that the Church is led by the Holy Spirit through the **infallability **of the Pope in matters of faith and morals; the result - The One True Church.
Did you ever read anything on the infallibility of the Pope - by Catholic authors? You must stop pushing this concept. There is not One True Church, except the ‘one holy catholic and apostolic Church’ (Nicene Creed), that is, not the Catholic Church of Rome, but the universal catholic church of Christ, to which all of humanity is invited (Dogmatic Constitution, Vatican II, chap 16).

What is hateful to you, do not to your fellowmen.
This is the entire law:
All the rest is commentary.
TALMUD SHABBAT 3 id

 

[nerfherder]

The Dalai Lama? Ghaleeb? Buddha? Ghandi? To what point is this debate lead?

Iowa Mike

Exactly. It is good to broaden one’s perception of belief systems of the world. I simply suggested that Jews and Muslims, as well as Buddhists, also have an interest in the scriptures because they originated some of them (OT) and/or use some of them in their own sacred books (Q’uran). That makes it hard to imply that RCC originated the Scriptures and kindly passed them on to the world, with permission.

I am also reluctant to believe that only Christians are faithful in the eyes of God, and it is helpful to look at other belief systems.

 

[nerfherder]

What hand of peace? All I’ve seen from you is a constant denouncement of the RCC and it’s teachings which seems mostly based upon your own personal interpretation of scripture and other beliefs.

As for calling me a hypocrite, that is not very Christian of you. Shall I just add that to the list of names you’ve called me in other posts on other threads?

As for your consistant beliefs, many are not in communion with the Catholic Church you want to join. Do you not see that as a problem? Iowa Mike

Did I not answer this before? I do not denounce RCC because I wish to join the Church. I challenge belief so that I may believe. My beliefs are currently and inevitably based on the teachings I received when young (a cradle Baptist!) and do not reflect my personal interpretation of the Bible.

Yes, you can add hypocrite, if you wish to.

Yes, I know many of my beliefs are not consistent with those of RCC, because I am a learner! When will you get that into your head? I must challenge, I must be curious, I must observe and gather evidence etc. That is what it is all about. You do not convince me that I should consider joining, and in fact you have not made any comments about what *you * believe that would help me in my quest! You have only used me for target practice, I think.

The Hand of Peace for information

Give Our Lord the benefit of believing
that his hand is leading you,
and accept the anxiety of feeling yourself
in suspense and incomplete.
Pere Teilhard de Chardin SJ

None of the trials which have come upon you is more than a human being can stand. You can trust that God will not let you be put to the test beyond your strength, but with any trial will also provide a way out by
enabling you to put up with it.
St Paul, 1 Corinthians 10:13

It is worth remembering that the time of greatest gain in terms of wisdom and inner strength is often that of greatest difficulty. Unfortunate events, though potentially a source of anger and despair, have equal potential to be a source of spiritual growth. Whether or not this is the outcome depends on our response. Dalai Lama

In humility is the greatest freedom.
As long as you have to defend the imaginary self
that you think is important, you lose your peace of heart.
As soon as you compare that shadow
with the shadows of other people, you lose all joy,
because you have begun to trade in unrealities
and there is no joy in things that do not exist.
Thomas Merton

I believe in the fundamental truth of all great religions of the world. I believe that they are all God-given and I believe that they were necessary for the people to whom these religions were revealed. And I believe that if only we could all of us read the scriptures of the different faiths from the standpoints of the followers of these faiths, we should find that they were at bottom
all one and were all helpful to one another.
Mahatma Gandhi

HAPPY EASTER!

 

[MrS]

Quote:

Confusion is rife. You have said the Bible is a book which belongs to the Church of Rome. I disagreed with you. You said that Christ founded one Church, the Church of Rome. I disagreed with you.

You are perhaps implying that we ‘other’ Christians should be grateful to RCC for supplying both Bible and Church doctrine for the rest of us, for inviting us to join RCC. Many of us have a different perspective, and I know that you could appreciate that if you tried.

It must be emphasised particularly that the Bible is the scripture of all Christians, and parts of it the scripture of **Jews **and Muslims. No Muslim or Jew would ever agree that the Bible belongs solely to RCC, that it was initiated by RCC, or that it is given by RCC to the rest of the world. And I agree with Muslims and Jews on this point.

Where have I misread you?

Your post could lead to many new theads… all worth discussing. But for the moment, I find that the last questions is the most interesting

Where have I misread you?

I post a thought, and you read it. Then you ask the author, me, to verify if what you understand is correct. That is certainly the best way to communicate a thought.

You did not assume you knew what word to emphasis (that could change the meaning)
You did not ask a stanger to interpret (that could change the meaning)
You did not simply pray and “feel” that you understanding was inerrant.
And if I was not around, you might have asked my relative, or brother, or student about what I had written.

Why do protesants not do the same with the Book that came from and through the Catholic Church?

That is part of what makes all others just other denominations… they take authority away from Jesus’ plan for us, and assume it for themselves … to their own destruction.

.

 

[MrS]

Three comments:

I offered you the hand of peace, and you bit it, hard.

As I said to you previously, Christ held hypocrites in contempt.

I hold beliefs which are consistent with mainline Christianity, and I refuse to be brainwashed by any particular denomination. If I can get my feeble mind around the doctrine, dogma, creeds and practices of RCC, I wish to join the Church, and would be delighted if this were possible.

At what point in history did true mainline Christianity* (there was for 1500 years ONLY the Catholic Church*) start including breakaway groups, … which now claim to be part of mainline Christianity??

 

[Carol_Coombe]

Your post could lead to many new theads… all worth discussing. But for the moment, I find that the last questions is the most interesting

Where have I misread you?

I post a thought, and you read it. Then you ask the author, me, to verify if what you understand is correct. That is certainly the best way to communicate a thought.

You did not assume you knew what word to emphasis (that could change the meaning)
You did not ask a stanger to interpret (that could change the meaning)
You did not simply pray and “feel” that you understanding was inerrant.
And if I was not around, you might have asked my relative, or brother, or student about what I had written.

Why do protesants not do the same with the Book that came from and through the Catholic Church?

That is part of what makes all others just other denominations… they take authority away from Jesus’ plan for us, and assume it for themselves … to their own destruction.

.

What on earth is all this garble? You said I had misread your post. I asked you in what way I had misread it. All you had to do was to tell me your thought in a different way.

This has nothing to do with what you are talking about above. And if you *do think *that it is related to the greater scheme of things, then you must be sorely disillusioned.

This is all very strange. Did you just wake up?

 

[Carol_Coombe]

At what point in history did true mainline Christianity* (there was for 1500 years ONLY the Catholic Church*) start including breakaway groups, … which now claim to be part of mainline Christianity??

What are ‘breakaway groups’. Can you name a few so I can compose an answer?

What do you understand to be mainline Christianity - the Church of Rome only? or some other combination? or Christ’s universal catholic Church?

 

[MrS]

What are ‘breakaway groups’. Can you name a few so I can compose an answer?

What do you understand to be mainline Christianity - the Church of Rome only? or some other combination? or Christ’s universal catholic Church?

With the almost daily start-up of a new denomination somewhere in the world, I don’t think there is a definition of “mainline” Christianity.

So…

I was referreing to the first and only Church established by Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit as the only representative of “mainline” Christianity.

Since we were promised that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all Truth, and we understand that to mean that we won’t receive all Truth as clear and understandable in a flash… I also believe that Doctrine/Truth will develope over time… but within the one established Church.

Some of our separated brethren have actually been helpful in this development… we surely thank them, and encourage them to accept those Truths which they might reject.

Where is the Fullness of Faith, and the whole deposit of Truth to be found… reason would tell us that the answer comes back to which Church would Jesus choose… perhaps the One He founded, no doubt.

To the first part of yoru post… on the breakaways…

Again reason would tell me that any group, sect, community, or even individual who chooses to belong to or start a community in “conflict” with the Catholic Church is a breakaway.

By denying the Pope as the holder of the keys of authority, the Eastern churches broke away.

By denying that and more, the reformers broke away… from the Catholic Church and from each other.

.

 

[MrS]

What on earth is all this garble? You said I had misread your post. I asked you in what way I had misread it. All you had to do was to tell me your thought in a different way.

This has nothing to do with what you are talking about above. And if you *do think *that it is related to the greater scheme of things, then you must be sorely disillusioned.

This is all very strange. Did you just wake up?

You did not misread me…

The Catholic Church is the only Church founded by Christ on the Apostles…

The 73 books of the Bible were written by human, Catholic authors, under the guidance of the Divine author, the Holy Spirit.

They were given to the only Church, the only form of Christianity, in existence.

It is up to the Cathlic Church to safeguard these books, to offer the best translation possible to the world, and to be the magisterium, or teaching authority of what they contain.

To usurp any of this is to become a break-away heresy or faith community or whatever… but not a church in the original meaning of the word.

.

 

[jmcrae]

I hope you teach the catechism. Teaching your personal views in public or private Catholic schools would not result in informed consciences among Canada’s children.

Thank you for the good advice.

This is, in fact, exactly what I do - just as my Director of Religious Education, the priest of the parish where I teach, and my Bishop have all asked me to do - and they are far more eminently qualified to tell me how to do my job than you are, although I’m sure you meant it in the kindest possible way.

 

[jmcrae]

Why should it make a difference if I am a Catholic or not. I am also godparent to a Chinese child, two Zambian Catholic children, one Malawian child. I take my responsibilities seriously.

Isn’t the job of a god-parent to ensure that the child is raised in his religion, and to model the precepts of that faith to the child through example and encouragement (that is, take the child to services and show him how to live out his religion in public and at work and play)?

The papacyVatican can claim all it wants, and although its views are highly respected by many Christians of all denominations worldwide, that does not mean that they are bound by its views.

For the purposes of knowing who the leader of the Christian religion is, they don’t need to believe in the precepts of the Christian religion - all they have to do is have respect for the Christian leadership selection process, which was put into place by Jesus Christ and His Apostles.

It is not even necessary to believe that Jesus Christ was God; all that is necessary is to comprehend that He is the founder of the Christian religion, and that those who follow His example, teachings, precepts, and laws (including the laws about how to select the leaders, and laws about the need to obey one’s leaders) are the members of His Church.

Just as those who do what Buddha commanded are Buddists.

Just as those who do what Mohammed commanded are Muslim.

 

[believers]

It is not even necessary to believe that Jesus Christ was God; all that is necessary is to comprehend that He is the founder of the Christian religion, and that those who follow His example, teachings, precepts, and laws (including the laws about how to select the leaders, and laws about the need to obey one’s leaders) are the members of His Church.

Just out of curiousity… do other Catholics believe this too?

 

[believers]

Top 5 Conditions to be a Christian according to God

1. Believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God
2. Believe that Jesus Christ paid for our sin on the cross with His blood
3. Believe that Jesus Christ died and was resurrected by the power of God
4. Repent
5. Love God with all your heart and love one another.

 

[Kurt_G]

Just out of curiousity… do other Catholics believe this too?

I could tell someone would misread jmcrea on post #628. jmcrea will clarify I’m sure, but I will offer how I had read that response…

A total nonbeliever, an agnostic, an atheist, or even a galactic traveler, who might be factually interested in researching this person Jesus Christ, and how, if, and when, He left someone in charge, even such a person would come across the Catholic Church in their research. The historical evidence is such that it stands on its own… without any belief in Jesus necessary to reach that conclusion.

Does this help, or did I muddy the water?

God Bless Us All,

 

[MrS]

Top 5 Conditions to be a Christian according to God

1. Believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God
2. Believe that Jesus Christ paid for our sin on the cross with His blood
3. Believe that Jesus Christ died and was resurrected by the power of God
4. Repent
5. Love God with all your heart and love one another.

what happened to

Pick up your cross daily and follow Me

Give all that you have to the poor and follow Me.

Be born again of water and the Spirit

Listen to the Church (he who hears you,…

etc etc etc

According to God, huh… well it’s a good, partial, but good list… and is according to believers.