The Catholic Church is just another denomination

[MrS]

That’s not what God said. You’re adding doctrine. God said baptism now saves. He did not say only if you die right after the baptism.

So you’re saying God meant to say baptism now saves ‘sometimes’?

Nor did He say “…baptism now saves you, and once saved always saved, so now you can do as you wish…”

Nor did He say “…baptism now saves you, and you will never turn your back on Me…”

Nor did He say " …baptism now saves you, and you can sin at will…"

.

 

[believers]

Yes. And you’re also being saved. You still have to persevere until the very end, obey Christ in all things, and work out your salvation in fear and trembling - just like St. Paul.

God said “baptism now saves”. You’ve interpreted that verse to mean water baptism. So let’s take

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Does that mean that all who believe and are water baptized shall be saved?

 

[MrS]

Let’s just say that I’m not water baptized and I’d like to join the Catholic church. God said baptism now saves. If I get water baptized, am I saved?

If you ever did say that, and were not baptized, then yes, water baptism would be a requirement to enter the Chuch.

If you had been already baptised (water is implied, yes?) with the Trinitarian method, and wanted to join the Catholic Church, then no, you cannot be re-baptised. God does not make mistakes, so the first time works!!

Some who enter the Church are not sure if they were ever properly baptised if at all. So they receive a “provisional” baptism which recognizes that only the first correct baptism is necessary.

.

 

[jmcrae]

God said “baptism now saves”. You’ve interpreted that verse to mean water baptism. So let’s take

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Does that mean that all who believe and are water baptized shall be saved?

They are a great deal more likely to be, than they were before they did these things. We cannot guarantee the future, though. The person could apostasize on his death-bed - it’s been known to happen. This is why we also have to persevere.

 

[MrS]

Actually, we had the doctrine before we had the verse - otherwise, we wouldn’t have had the verse that expresses the already-existing doctrine.

what… you mean the Catholic Church was around with practices, and Traditions, and disciplines before the NT was written???:bigyikes: awsome!!!

 

[MrS]

God said “baptism now saves”. You’ve interpreted that verse to mean water baptism. So let’s take

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Does that mean that all who believe and are water baptized shall be saved?

define believe

I contend that it means believe, listen, and obey… including John 6 as taught by John and the Apostles, and by Paul.

and lots more

 

[jmcrae]

what… you mean the Catholic Church was around with practices, and Traditions, and disciplines before the NT was written???:bigyikes: awsome!!!

Who did you think wrote the New Testament?

 

[MrS]

Please keep in mind the common use of a Hebrew idiom

When the verse says “He who believes and…”

should be understood as “He who is able to believe and believes…”

This allows for the infirmed, the infants, the retarded etc. who cannot believe… but can be saved through the faith of another (like the young crippled man who was lowered through the roof).

.another example… “… those who do not work will not be fed…”

we understand it to say " … those who are able to work and do not work, will not be fed…" Again, this allows for the infants and elderly who we will not starve if they don’t work.

.

 

[believers]

If you ever did say that, and were not baptized, then yes, water baptism would be a requirement to enter the Chuch.

If you had been already baptised (water is implied, yes?) with the Trinitarian method, and wanted to join the Catholic Church, then no, you cannot be re-baptised. God does not make mistakes, so the first time works!!

Some who enter the Church are not sure if they were ever properly baptised if at all. So they receive a “provisional” baptism which recognizes that only the first correct baptism is necessary.

.

That was just a hypothetical question by the way. I was Catholic for 36 years and left a year ago. The questions I ask you are the same questions I had as a Catholic. I take that verse about “baptism now saves” as just that. Baptism now saves. However, my interpretation differs in that baptism of the Holy Spirit is what that verse is referring to which comes by belief in the gospel of Christ and repenting. Jesus does the baptizing in that instance.

 

[MrS]

Who did you think wrote the New Testament?

I believers that it was those Catholics, with the Holy Spirit doing exactly what Jesus promised. smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_17_208.gif

%between%

 

[guanophore]

That’s not what God said. You’re adding doctrine. God said baptism now saves. He did not say only if you die right after the baptism.

So you’re saying God meant to say baptism now saves ‘sometimes’?

It will not help you much believers, if you try to understand Catholic teaching by reading one verse at a time. The Teaching is a whole, and cannot be broken apart and be understood. I am not saying that you can grasp it all at the same time, but to zero in on one phrase like this and get so hung up on it is silly.

 

[MrS]

That was just a hypothetical question by the way. I was Catholic for 36 years and left a year ago. The questions I ask you are the same questions I had as a Catholic. I take that verse about “baptism now saves” as just that. Baptism now saves. However, my interpretation differs in that baptism of the Holy Spirit is what that verse is referring to which comes by belief in the gospel of Christ and repenting. Jesus does the baptizing in that instance.

Okay, but Jesus also explains this to Nicodemus… unless you are born again of water and the Spirit.

 

[believers]

It will not help you much believers, if you try to understand Catholic teaching by reading one verse at a time. The Teaching is a whole, and cannot be broken apart and be understood. I am not saying that you can grasp it all at the same time, but to zero in on one phrase like this and get so hung up on it is silly.

Well, actually I have read a lot more than just one verse. You can’t take that verse out of context. “Baptism now saves” is an emphatic statement. It can only be true. Since God can’t lie it must be true.

 

[jmcrae]

You can’t take that verse out of context.

As you have demonstrated here quite well.

“Baptism now saves” is an emphatic statement. It can only be true or false. Since God can’t like it must be true.

It is true - and it is to be taken in the whole context of the rest of the Bible, which exhorts us to obey the Commandments of Christ, be members of His Church, participate in His Sacraments, and persevere until the very end.

 

[MrS]

Well, actually I have read a lot more than just one verse. You can’t take that verse out of context. “Baptism now saves” is an emphatic statement. It can only be true. Since God can’t lie it must be true.

It is true… when properly interpreted and in light of all similar teachings in Scripture.

If you, believers, have two verses that contradict… it is not the fault of Scripture… the fault lies in the interpretation

 

[Kurt_G]

That was just a hypothetical question by the way. I was Catholic for 36 years and left a year ago. The questions I ask you are the same questions I had as a Catholic. I take that verse about “baptism now saves” as just that. Baptism now saves. However, my interpretation differs in that baptism of the Holy Spirit is what that verse is referring to which comes by belief in the gospel of Christ and repenting. Jesus does the baptizing in that instance.

Jesus commanded His Church to Teach and to Baptize “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”. Matt 28.

1. If we are looking for His Church today, we need to look for one which:
   a. Teaches, with claimed authority to Teach (sometimes to a hostile secular world), and

b. Baptizes (in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit).

Come on, guys, Holy Scripture even shows us St. Paul being baptized! Our holy saints and martyrs of the first and second centuries were dying for their faith in Jesus Christ, (way before they had a New Testament to instruct them) and they believed in baptism by water and the Holy Spirit.

You don’t need to take our word for it, just read them for yourself. You can start with the Didache, which gave specific instructions on how to baptize. I mean, this is all happening when the years still had 2 digits!

I suggest for you, believes, that you find your own source for the Early Christian Fathers, and read a fair number of them, directly for yourself. Do that first, and then see if you are still comfortable leaving the Church. We don’t know each other, but I can almost guarantee you have not done this to any major degree, or you would not have left the Church. Their testimony is just that powerful. You can listen to guys like James White (whom I do respect for his honest style) try to talk around these Early Fathers, but it just doesn’t wash…

The Early Christians who were living with the Holy Spirit were pure Catholic, through and through, and they had the courage to die for their faith in our Lord Jesus Christ *and *His Church.

I do apologize for the above, I do not normally get so worked up. But I am going to hit the “submit” button anyway.

God Bless Us All!

 

[PauloFreire2]

Catholicism is more than just a denomination. It’s a powerful social philosophy. It’s strong…maybe the strongest of the various Christian theologies. Fundamentalism is strong, but folds under the pressure of persistent logic. Catholicism is deep, and enduring.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

I replied as I did for a whole host of reasons. As a Catholic I am called to the truth of Christ’s Church as defined by its doctrines, teachings and traditions. In Carol’s threads and posts she as expressed disbelief in many of the core beliefs of the Church and she has done so with passion.
Iowa Mike

I swore I would not post again. But your response to Christians and would-be Catholic Christians on this Forum is outrageous. You should be ashamed to call yourself a Christian. Your posts are for the most part vicious sparring, personal attacks on questers, sarcastic, defensive in the extreme yet full of prideful arrogance, and lack any perception of or empathy with our common humanity.

You - and those like you - are the reason this Forum does not work for many. Ignorance, insult, egregious hurt to fellow Christians: these are the work of someone who is not a Christian at heart. You may take Eucharist, you may do your Hail Marys, you may believe the Church of Rome is the One True Church - and that is fine.

But you do not have the first clue about what it means to be a true Christian. Do you really think that Christ would have spoken as you do? Do you really think that you follow His example in your postings? Do you really think that you present Christ to others? Do you really think that you have Christ-inspired relations with others who are different from you? Do you really think that you can make the world a better place for even one person other than yourself? Do you really think that you live in Christ, and Christ lives in you? Do you really think that you are one with the Beloved?

Yes, you should be ashamed. I shall not pray for you: words fail me. But I would expect that you would raise this issue at your next confession and pray daily for a less vicious nature.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

believers:

The questions I ask you are the same questions I had as a Catholic.

Questions have answers. Did you ask your questions in the spirit of acquiring answers or in the spirit of challenging the authority of the Church to answer them?

 

[fix]

Well, actually I have read a lot more than just one verse. You can’t take that verse out of context. “Baptism now saves” is an emphatic statement. It can only be true. Since God can’t lie it must be true.

Yes, baptism saves but salvation can be lost through sin. Can you not see every word of scripture must be reconciled?