"The Catholic Church is wrong"

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ChristianKnight
Try this, if you are devoted to God as you seem to be and I believe you are, to control your anger or frustration (or whatever) while in some of these discussions, try to think how Jesus would want you to respond. That is, in what disposition. there is truly much you can learn here and much that all would like to share with you if the defensiveness were left behind all the way around. I would believe everyone here would love to share what they know with you, what they have learned. Remember that pride and ego are like a cloud in the mind that restricts us from seeing what is offered clearly.
 
Martin777 said:
Should be a great game tomorrow!

So…As much time as Catholics spend exalting and praying to Mary (It is a MASSIVE part of the church life), and as important as prayer is, it seems strange that not only did Jesus not instruct on praying to Mary, but the ONE time someone speaks in what we could now call a “Catholic way” about Mary in Jesus’ presence, he directs them away from her altogether. It’s rather like a mild rebuke. It seems to me that an honest, objective interpretaion of this would show the practice of praying to Mary to be completely contrary to sound biblical scholarship and to the heart of Jesus in the one passage where He was confronted with someone who wished to exalt her!

I can only imagine how the Catholic church would jump on someone who formed some other doctrine in such a biblically careless way. Hmmm…
First I will say that the scripture even according to itself does not contain all that occured in the history of Jesus life including Mary’s. Second, there are many references to Mary in the Bible and the only one that you could possibly misread you are trying to make a negative point of which it was not as stated. You are not the first to do this but it is a fact. Also, If you want the closest interpretation to the Biblical translations it would be wise to use the authentic interpretations as in the Catholic Bibles over two thousand years and I don’t mean that to be sarcastic, but truthful. Finally, Jesus loved and honored His mother but His ministry, His purpose was to bring others to repentance and salvation which His mother was chosen already from Birth and He was in fact making the reference that Those who return to God are more highly pleasing than even the blessed.
And my point about Catholic radio is that it seems non-Catholics produce music that inspires Catholics to tune in, and I don’t think they would otherwise. It just makes me wonder what the source is. Steer me to some powerful Catholic music I can put on my Ipod. I like all genres./
QUOTE]

As far as Christian music is concerned, it is just that, Christian. There are no Christian songs that I ever heard that are debates between denominations, just praising God. Our most beautiful music as far as I am concerned is the latin prayers in “Chants” But you wouldn’t understand that at this point. Many of the Christian Singers are Catholic but it is not made a point of. Also, one of the most beautiful Christian Singers I have ever heard is Catholic, Donna Cori Gibson. You can learn more about her at donnacorigibson.com/
Holy Spirit guide us all.
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Originally Posted by Martin777
How do you reconcile those two passages? I have an idea. What do you think?

Romans CH 2
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; (those who know the law) rather, those who observe the law will be justified (those who live by it). 14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law (Do not know of the law) by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves (follow ethics and morality in treating others etc.) even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, (they recognize what is right and wrong in themselves toward others) 6 while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works (What they have done from the heart regardless of knowledge of the law) through Christ Jesus.
 
Martin777 said:
Actually what I said about the biblical doctrine of holiness was simply what the Holy Spirit taught me through personal study and through godly pastors and teachers and scholars through the years. And I say this respectfully…none of them were Roman Catholic. It is the same Holy Spirit who lives inside of all people who have been born again, who illumines the scriptures and applies them to our daily lives. “…those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba,Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.”
–Romans 8:14-16
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”–II Tim 3:16,17
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Yes, this is why we say that all who are led by this Spirit are Catholic! There is only one Church, One Lord, One Baptism. That is why all who are connected to the Head are members of the One Body. 👍
Martin777 said:
No, those were good points. I was not suggesting Jesus was insulting his mother. You are right that he was redirecting people to focus on God’s word and obey it. I was just saying that as controversial (in the entire Christian world as praying to Mary is, and in light of how absent from scripture the teaching is, it seems that if it were a valid practice, Jesus would have given us something supporting it.
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This is how we understand what happened at the wedding in Cana. Jesus demonstrates the manner in which he responds to the intercessions of His beloved mother.
Martin777 said:
No, those were good points. I was not suggesting Jesus was insulting his mother. You are right that he was redirecting people to focus on God’s word and obey it. I was just saying that as controversial (in the entire Christian world as praying to Mary is, and in light of how absent from scripture the teaching is, it seems that if it were a valid practice, Jesus would have given us something supporting it. The only one in scripture that we are told to pray to is God, who is high and lifted up. And so when someone tries to elevate Mary…the ONE time it is done in Jesus’ presence that we know of…he issues a mild rebuke to the one speaking. Do you get where I am going with this?
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Martin777 said:
. The only one in scripture that we are told to pray to is God, who is high and lifted up. And so when someone tries to elevate Mary…the ONE time it is done in Jesus’ presence that we know of…he issues a mild rebuke to the one speaking. Do you get where I am going with this?
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No, there is no rebuke. There is also no where in scripture where it states that scripture alone contains all that is appropriate for Christian prayer life.

Acts 2:41-42
" They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers."

Those who have separated themselves from the Apostolic Succession have lost the portion of the Apostles’ teaching that is not contained in the Bible, and from the Liturgy of the Eucharist, and the life of Catholic prayer. These things were taught to the Church before a word of the Scripture was written, and have been preserved by the Church to this day.
Martin777 said:
Code: 
  Do you get where I am going with this?
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Not exactly, but given the title of the thread, I can only imagine. 😉
 
Martin777 said:
No, those were good points. I was not suggesting Jesus was insulting his mother. You are right that he was redirecting people to focus on God’s word and obey it. I was just saying that as controversial (in the entire Christian world as praying to Mary is, and in light of how absent from scripture the teaching is, it seems that if it were a valid practice, Jesus would have given us something supporting it. The only one in scripture that we are told to pray to is God, who is high and lifted up. And so when someone tries to elevate Mary…the ONE time it is done in Jesus’ presence that we know of…he issues a mild rebuke to the one speaking. Do you get where I am going with this?
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First, I wouldn’t say praying to Mary (or ANY saint, for that matter) is controversial in the entire Christian world. Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, the Assyrian Church of the East, and others all share this same belief. Added up, they equal about 77% of all Christians. What you mean to say is that it’s controversial among 23% of Christians (less than 1/4) that are Protestant.

Second, I honestly see your point, but that’s your interpretation. Much of the world has a different interpretation, and that’s the problem. Why should I believe your analysis over the combined analysis of some of the most brilliant biblical scholars of the last 2000 years? If the passage is that clear, surely there should be no debate? Amazingly, there was a time when people even challenged the Trinity (in substantial numbers, I might add), and that’s FAR more clear in the Bible than the point you’re trying to make.
 
guanophore said:
I don’t know what kind of Catholic Church you have been frequenting, but I can tell you that I have been to dozens of parishes in as many States,and all over in my own, and I have yet to find any Catholic Church that has Mary as a “massive part of Church life”. :confused:

For Catholics, worship is about the Eucharist. During the Liturgy, there is a request for intercession, but that is it. If it seems to you that there is a “massive” exaltation and prayer to Mary, it is likely that it is happening outside of the Liturgy.

You don’t know this, because your knowledge of what He taught is limited to the portion extant in Scripture. However, in that Bible, we see Jesus granting Mary’s intercesson in great abundance, illustrating how careful He is to fulfill her prayers “to the brim” 👍

It must seem that way to those who are reading it with anti-Catholic glasses on. Jesus brings the focus toward Mary,and her perfect obedience to Him. He illustrates that all of us can enter into the great blessing that she has by living the life of obedience that she has. Her attitude “I am the handmaid of the Lord” is the model for all of us.

It seems this way, looking back through 20th century anti-Catholic lenses.

Well, the Catholic faith has been received from the Apostles,a nd does not find it’s origin in “biblical scholarship”. Our faith comes from Jesus himself, and is not extracted from the pages of a book.

Do you imagine that Jesus thought Mary was not blessed to be His mother?

And that is all it would be - your active imagination. Catholic doctrines are not formed from the bible. On the contrary, the Bible reflects what the Catholic Church believes and teaches. Our faith was delivered whole and entire before one word of it was written.

Such a statement reveals a prejudice about Catholics. Most Catholics listen to Protestant radio and TV. Many of us have some favorite Protestant preachers. Historically, Catholic resources have been used primarily for the corporate works of mercy, and the media has not been a priority.
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You’re right…the abundance of prayers to Mary would be outside the liturgy. It goes on in the private lives of Catholics all the time. Since prayer in Holy Scripture (to which all church leaders must submit), is reserved for God, it seems that the human creation of praying to Mary would be in the realm of worshipping her. Would it not? Where in Scripture are we instructed to pray to anyone but God?
Of course we all know how convenient it is to say that the Catholic faith comes from the apostles…it makes it in theory, irrefutable. And of course you know vast numbers of godly leaders would in fact refute it vigorously. But I think you make my point well when you say “…the Catholic faith…does not find its origin in ‘biblical scholarship.’” There are some great Catholic scholars, and I am thankful that part of the Catholic tradition is to hold that Scripture is the infallible, inspired Word of God Himself. But when the edicts of men, no matter how much they claim to be under apostolic authority, go against Scripture and sound hermeneutics…well, guess what? We all stand back and notice that the emperor has no clothes on.
When did the RCC introduce the doctrine of taking time to pray to Mary when it could be spent praying directly to the One that Scripture says is our Intercessor at the right hand of God? When was that introduced?
 
Martin777 said:
You’re right…the abundance of prayers to Mary would be outside the liturgy. It goes on in the private lives of Catholics all the time. Since prayer in Holy Scripture (to which all church leaders must submit), is reserved for God, it seems that the human creation of praying to Mary would be in the realm of worshipping her. Would it not?
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I think it would be useful to keep in mind that the Eucharist is the Source and Summit of the Catholic faith. This is our pure form of worship. Though you may witness a number of private devotions among the faithful, they are usually extraneous.

What does this mean “to which all church leaders must submit”? Are you saying that everyone should be subject to how you understand scripture?

There are many, many forms of prayer. Supplication is only one. When you read the account of the wedding in Cana, what do you see Mary doing there? Do you call that worship?
Martin777 said:
Where in Scripture are we instructed to pray to anyone but God?
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You keep making this same mistake. You are asking this question based on erroneous assumptions. You are assuming that the sum total of Christian life and practice is in the Bible, and you are assuming that you need a specific instruction in there to justify a religious practice. Where in scripture are we instructed to play the organ or piano in church and to sing hymns? Where are we instructed to erect a pulpit and preach from the Bible?
Where is the instruction to have an altar call? Where is the instruction that, while all eyes are closed, those who want to give their lives to God should raise their hands? Is it wrong to engage in any of these religious practices, because they are not specifically instructed by scripture?
Martin777 said:
Of course we all know how convenient it is to say that the Catholic faith comes from the apostles…it makes it in theory, irrefutable.
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😃
Martin777 said:
And of course you know vast numbers of godly leaders would in fact refute it vigorously. But I think you make my point well when you say “…the Catholic faith…does not find its origin in ‘biblical scholarship.’” There are some great Catholic scholars, and I am thankful that part of the Catholic tradition is to hold that Scripture is the infallible, inspired Word of God Himself. But when the edicts of men, no matter how much they claim to be under apostolic authority, go against Scripture and sound hermeneutics…well, guess what?
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Apparently you are referring to a specific “edict of man” here. Can you show where the intercession of the saints is an “edict of man”, instead of an Apostolic practice? Which man started it, and when?
Martin777 said:
We all stand back and notice that the emperor has no clothes on.
When did the RCC introduce the doctrine of taking time to pray to Mary when it could be spent praying directly to the One that Scripture says is our Intercessor at the right hand of God? When was that introduced?
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Never. It is not a “Roman” practice, but an Apostolic one. The Church has been asking for the prayers of the martyrs since the death of St. Stephen recorded in the book of Acts. For us, it is not “taking time” or attention away from God, as we believe that the Saints are in the presence of God, and that our prayers are joined to theirs before His throne.

Rev 5:7-8
8 When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

" Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense **to offer with the prayers of all the saints **on the golden altar that is before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel." Rev 8:3-4

This is a description of worship and prayer from the heavenly perspective. The angels and departed who have gone on before us are intracately interwoven with the supplications of the believers (saints) still on earth. The prayer of the righteous is powerful in it’s effects, and now that they have been perfected, they are righteous forever. Praying with them/through them does not “subtract” somehow from God. If that were true, the angels that are offering the prayers would also be “subtracting” from God.
 
guanophore said:
I think that is pride talking. Obviously it was a hurtful statement, and this is a common response to being hurt by someone. You wish you did not care, but you really do care. If you did not care, you would not be hanging on to it!

Oh yes, you’ve touched my inner child :crying:

This is disingenuous. You clearly do not believe that it is true.

I was being sarcastic.

My question is, how does the use of that signature Glorify God? I agree, you can use it, you are free to glorify God in the best way you can.

I don’t I show it to show how people on here are either mean or retarded.

Ok, but it does not take a class or a Christian History book to know that it is not a good idea to take names to yourself. What you have done is identify with your abuser/accuser. Do you know the identity of the accuser of the brethren? You have the answer to that one in the best Chrsitian history book available, you Bible.

But my bible is not right. right?

Well, there ya have it! Why not honor that person, by using something he said in your signature, instead of giving honor to falsehoods?

falsehood? How is that false?

People do. the Church does not because the Divine elements of her prevent this.

The church not sin? Well, then it commits evil things, hasn’t it? I do not see how you can take pride in following a “church” that has committed terrible things like it has.

Yes, it is part of the flesh from which Jesus came to deliver us.
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ChristianKnight:
Ok I was prepared to give you a lot of the benefit of the doubt, based on what other posters have said, but you seem to be oblivious (willfully) to what is being said to you in all charity and christian love and care; but actually, having read your last reply, Im absolutley convinced youre a tiresome gameplayer. Youre not really interested in anything that is being said to you. You just want to hammer on about the wicked catholics on here, and how they brow beat poor little you.
 
hays1122 said:
I am sure the main reason protestants criticize Catholicism is because they are taught from the bible. And the bible does not say “Pray the rosary” or “Ask Mary to pray for us now and at the hour of our death”.
This has all been hashed out a millions times in other threads. You know the story and the drill.
And I can predict your response. Because I read it under another topic title.
And protestants are not the only ones criticizing another man’s religion. I have read enough threads here to know that Catholics don’t like protestants. And in listening to Catholic Answers Live I have learned that many Catholic priests and believers also criticize and make fun of protestants.
So until Christians realize that the real problem is bringing lost souls to know Jesus Christ as their savior. Instead of proving that their religion is the only religion. We will make Jesus sad watching us so called “Christians” make a mockery of Christianity to the lost.
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I, for one, am getting sick and tired of Protestants making the utterly FALSE claim that Catholics don’t use the Bible, we make stuff up, and so on. The Catholic faith is grounded FIRMLY in Scripture!!! Prove me wrong. The simple fact is the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ. NO Protestant Church can make that claim. The authority of the CHurch is provided for in the Scriptures. Praying for souls in Purgatory is in there. Papal infallibility is in there. The Eucharist is in there. Sola Scriptura is NOT in there. Sola Fide is NOT in there. So why cant Protestants accept the truth?
 
notsmart said:
I think it can be good, that people find things they think/believe are wrong with the catholic church. Just like my husband did.

He told me last night, HE was wrong.
He told me the Church may just be right after all.

I never shut him down when he expressed himself. I simply prayed, offered up my daily work, all my pain, and went to mass as often as I could go.

He is going to be a catholic too now.
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Blessed be our God forever and ever. you are a great witness of the Faith. you did not force your believe but let him come to a decision himself. beautiful…
 
CWBetts said:
I, for one, am getting sick and tired of Protestants making the utterly FALSE claim that Catholics don’t use the Bible, we make stuff up, and so on. The Catholic faith is grounded FIRMLY in Scripture!!! Prove me wrong. The simple fact is the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ. NO Protestant Church can make that claim. The authority of the CHurch is provided for in the Scriptures. Praying for souls in Purgatory is in there. Papal infallibility is in there. The Eucharist is in there. Sola Scriptura is NOT in there. Sola Fide is NOT in there. So why cant Protestants accept the truth?
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**Ok Carl,👋 **
**Calm down!😃 ****Remember the blood pressure! :tsktsk: **Would you want to know what The scriptures think of Protestants? “Whoever teaches something different and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the religious teaching is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid disposition for arguments and verbal disputes. From these come envy, rivalry, insults, evil suspicions, and mutual friction among people with corrupted minds, who are deprived of the truth, supposing religion to be a means of gain. Indeed, religion with contentment is a great gain.” ~ 1 Timothy 6; 4-6
God Bless
 
wisdomseeker said:
Blessed be our God forever and ever. you are a great witness of the Faith. you did not force your believe but let him come to a decision himself. beautiful…
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I think notsmart should change her name to reallysmart! God Bless her and her Husband! 👍
 
**A Christmas Tale **

When four of Santa’s elves got sick, the trainee elves did not produce toys as fast as the regular ones, and Santa began to feel the Pre-Christmas pressure.

Then Mrs. Claus told Santa her Mother was coming to visit, which stressed Santa even more. When he went to harness the reindeer, he found that three of them were about to give birth and two others had jumped the fence and were out, only heaven knows where.
**Then when he began to load the sleigh, one of the floorboards cracked, the toy bag fell to the ground and all the toys were scattered Frustrated, Santa went in the house for a cup of apple cider and a shot of rum. When he went to the cupboard, he discovered the elves had drank all the cider and hidden the liquor. **
In his frustration, he accidentally dropped the cider jug, and it broke into hundreds of little glass pieces all over the kitchen floor. He went to get the broom and found the mice had eaten all the straw off the end of the broom.
**Just then the doorbell rang, and irritated Santa marched to the door, yanked it open, and there stood a little angel with a great big Christmas tree. **
**The angel said very cheerfully, ‘Merry Christmas, Santa. Isn’t this a lovely day? I have a beautiful tree for you Where would you like me to stick it?’ **
And so my friends began the tradition of the little angel on top of the Christmas tree. 😃
 
CWBetts said:
I, for one, am getting sick and tired of Protestants making the utterly FALSE claim that Catholics don’t use the Bible, we make stuff up, and so on. The Catholic faith is grounded FIRMLY in Scripture!!! Prove me wrong. The simple fact is the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ. NO Protestant Church can make that claim. The authority of the CHurch is provided for in the Scriptures. Praying for souls in Purgatory is in there. Papal infallibility is in there. The Eucharist is in there. Sola Scriptura is NOT in there. Sola Fide is NOT in there. So why cant Protestants accept the truth?
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You are beginning to sound like a Mormon.
 
Realcatholicgk said:
**A Christmas Tale **

When four of Santa’s elves got sick, the trainee elves did not produce toys as fast as the regular ones, and Santa began to feel the Pre-Christmas pressure.

Then Mrs. Claus told Santa her Mother was coming to visit, which stressed Santa even more. When he went to harness the reindeer, he found that three of them were about to give birth and two others had jumped the fence and were out, only heaven knows where.
**Then when he began to load the sleigh, one of the floorboards cracked, the toy bag fell to the ground and all the toys were scattered Frustrated, Santa went in the house for a cup of apple cider and a shot of rum. When he went to the cupboard, he discovered the elves had drank all the cider and hidden the liquor. **
In his frustration, he accidentally dropped the cider jug, and it broke into hundreds of little glass pieces all over the kitchen floor. He went to get the broom and found the mice had eaten all the straw off the end of the broom.
**Just then the doorbell rang, and irritated Santa marched to the door, yanked it open, and there stood a little angel with a great big Christmas tree. **
**The angel said very cheerfully, ‘Merry Christmas, Santa. Isn’t this a lovely day? I have a beautiful tree for you Where would you like me to stick it?’ **
And so my friends began the tradition of the little angel on top of the Christmas tree. 😃
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:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Thank you! That was great!
 
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