"The Catholic Church is wrong"

[guanophore]

So you’re saying the gospels we all have in our Bible were also preserved in your Bible…or is there something extra you have?

The gospels have not been tampered with, to my knowledge, except for the reference to Mary at the Annunciation. The Gk is generally rendered in a non-traditional manner there. What Catholics have that those who reject the Apostolic Tradition do not is the mindset of those who wrote the Scriptures.

Still waiting on documentation of when the Catholic church first started teaching the you should pray to Mary.

If you cannot accept what the Scripture says, then it will not be useful to attempt to move on from there. The NT is among the earliest Catholic documentation.

Mother and child worship began with the pagan Babylonian worship system and is found in many false religions throughout history.

Yes. However the presences of forshadows, types, and patterns previously in history does not nullify the revelation of God. We can find the Code of Hammurabi predated the Ten Commandments and the Law of Moses, yet contains much of what is in them. There were also myths about God’s dying and rising from the dead.

In that verse I quoted where someone could be construed to be ascribing some kind of worship to Mary )“Blessed…”) Jesus rediredted them. The Catholic church could have served us well had they picked up on that.

:bigyikes:

Gracious mercy no! No one is saying, or even suggesting that Mary, because she has been blessed by God, is due any worship! Such a statement reflects a serious deficiency in the understanding of worship. A human being who is blessed by God is still a creature, and should not be worshipped. Otherwise, you would have to say Jesus is implying that all those who live according to the Beatitudes…“blessed is the man who…” should be worshipped!

No, honor is not worship, it is recognizing what God has wrought in HIs people. In fact, the Catholic Church has served us well by “picking up” on the fact that Mary is twice blessed, one because she gave birth to the Saviour, and her “paps gave suck” to the Creator of the universe, but even more is she blessed because she followed Him all her life in humble obedience. This blessing for obedience is available to all of us.

The wedding at Cana was an example of an event in Jesus’ life BEFORE his ascension.

Agreed. But what do you see happening here? Are you suggesting He is less of a King in Cana than He was after He rose?

He is the exalted King now and the only intercessor we need and the only one we have been instructed to employ.

No one can mediate salvation for us but Christ, as “there is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved”. However, He has shared His ministry of reconciling the world to Himself, and allowed us to partake of His Divine Nature, and participate in his intercessory work.

When I speak to Jehovah's Witnesses about their special doctrines for which they have a proof text, they have an obsession that blinds them to the truth and they won't look at the greater body of scripture.  The obsession with Mary is amazingly similar.

I think it might seem that way to a person who derives their doctrine from Scripture. However, all the doctrines of the Catholic Church predate Scripture. The deposit of faith was whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written. The NT reflects what Catholics believe, but the Source is in Christ.

 

[guanophore]

It is the anti-Catholic Protestants that have the obsession with Mary. Communion of the Saints is in the Bible. We do NOT worship the Blessed Virgin. Veneration and Adoration are not the same. Our faith is CHrist centered. Your agenda is showing: to lead the faithful away from the Holy Catholic Church.

Poor Martin was a victim of post Vatican 2 catechesis and Catholic School. He obviously has found something for himself that seems to have more “meat”, which would not be hard having come through that era in American Catholicism. I have advised him that CAF is not a venue for evangelization. He seems intent upon bringing us the “truth” so that we can forsake that Pagan falsehood that he believes is the Catholic Church.

 

[onenow1]

So you’re saying the gospels we all have in our Bible were also preserved in your Bible…or is there something extra you have?

Still waiting on documentation of when the Catholic church first started teaching the you should pray to Mary.

=onenow1, Hi,

Let me butt in here for a sec with luke1: 42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!

43 And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

44 For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy.

45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord."

46 And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord,

47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,

48 for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;

49 for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.

50 And his mercy is on those who fear him from generation to generation.

51 He has shown strength with his arm, he has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts,

52 he has put down the mighty from their thrones, and exalted those of low degree;

Quote=Onenow1, I would pay particular attention to verse46,48,52.
Mary magnifies the Lord and according to the inspired word of God; and in verse 48 God says nothing less then all generations shall call her blessed.

In verse 52 if God exalts Mary so may we dont’cha think Martin ?

Peace,onenow1

 

[Cinette]

yes, I have noticed that on many threads over a long period of time. However, I strive to give an informative and charitable response because there are usually around 10 times more lurkers reading the threads than posters. Something may help them, even if it will not help SIA. Such members are challenges to our charity.

32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 If you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.” Luke 6:32-36

Thank you Guanophore - I really needed that. I have to learn to be more charitable.

I get so MAD with the Church bashers. They are not constructive. I want so much to learn and they are an obstruction. And you and others are so patient with them. I shall pray that I too will learn to be patient and charitable.

Thank you again
Cinette

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Martin777;4517406:

So you’re saying the gospels we all have in our Bible were also preserved in your Bible…or is there something extra you have?

Still waiting on documentation of when the Catholic church first started teaching the you should pray to Mary.

=onenow1, Hi,

Let me butt in here for a sec with luke1: 42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!

43 And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

44 For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy.

45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord."

46 And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord,

47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,

48 for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;

49 for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.

50 And his mercy is on those who fear him from generation to generation.

51 He has shown strength with his arm, he has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts,

52 he has put down the mighty from their thrones, and exalted those of low degree;

Quote=Onenow1, I would pay particular attention to verse46,48,52.
Mary magnifies the Lord and according to the inspired word of God; and in verse 48 God says nothing less then all generations shall call her blessed.

In verse 52 if God exalts Mary so may we dont’cha think Martin ?

Peace,onenow1

Amen and Amen

 

[Rolltide]

Mother and child worship began with the pagan Babylonian worship system and is found in many false religions throughout history. In that verse I quoted where someone could be construed to be ascribing some kind of worship to Mary )“Blessed…”) Jesus rediredted them. The Catholic church could have served us well had they picked up on that.

While you’re at it, don’t forget the parallels to Egyptian mythology and several Roman cults too! In fact, not only do these ancient religions have mother and child worship, but the mother was a virgin and the child turned out to be a savior! This argument is often used by atheists to prove that Christianity is false. (Look up Zeitgeist… you’ll see what I mean. I will NOT post that hideous link here.) If you bring up this argument, you undermine not only Catholicism, but the whole foundation of Christianity itself. However… we of course know that there can be similarities between religions that independently develop. For example, are the Mayans and Chinese related to the Egyptians just because they both built pyramids? (Emperor Qin in China’s tomb was originally a pyramid.) If you want, I’ll give you some links to some nice Protestant books that smash this argument to pieces.

 

[Martin777]

While you’re at it, don’t forget the parallels to Egyptian mythology and several Roman cults too! In fact, not only do these ancient religions have mother and child worship, but the mother was a virgin and the child turned out to be a savior! This argument is often used by atheists to prove that Christianity is false. (Look up Zeitgeist… you’ll see what I mean. I will NOT post that hideous link here.) If you bring up this argument, you undermine not only Catholicism, but the whole foundation of Christianity itself. However… we of course know that there can be similarities between religions that independently develop. For example, are the Mayans and Chinese related to the Egyptians just because they both built pyramids? (Emperor Qin in China’s tomb was originally a pyramid.) If you want, I’ll give you some links to some nice Protestant books that smash this argument to pieces.

Christianity will be fully intact and thriving, regardless of which RCC extra-biblical doctrines are exposed. The Bible has faced far more attacks than the RCC has, and as the great Charles Haddon Spurgeon said, you don’t have to defend the Bible, it is like a lion–you simply let it loose!

The millions of believers in the Christian Church, outside of the RCC, understand that Mary was a blessed woman to be able to be the human mother of Jesus, but they don’t pray to her nor do they elevate her beyond what Scripture dictates. I memorized the Magnificat from Luke, but I don’t use it to pray to Mary, etc. I use it simply as a praise to God.

And errrrrrr…still waiting for documentation on when the RCC first started teaching that we should pray to Mary.

God Bless the Gator Nation.

 

[Martin777]

onenow1;4517527:

Amen and Amen

I deem her blessed, too. And as I said, I memorized that passage years ago. How could it not be an indescribable blessing to give birth to the Savior and not complain about the lies and innuendo that would come against you for being an unwed mother who claimed God impregnated her! My point is, we simply are not intstructed to pray to anyone but God. Why not pray to Elijah and Moses and Abraham, and don’t forget John the Baptist, of whom Jesus said, “I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist” Guess that would include Mary, eh? The reason we don’t pray to them is that pray is to be directed to God alone! Basic theology.

 

[Rolltide]

Christianity will be fully intact and thriving, regardless of which RCC extra-biblical doctrines are exposed. The Bible has faced far more attacks than the RCC has, and as the great Charles Haddon Spurgeon said, you don’t have to defend the Bible, it is like a lion–you simply let it loose!

Two things.

1. You haven’t sufficiently proven that any of these doctrines are extra-Biblical.
2. Since Catholics question the entire idea of Sola Scriptura, it doesn’t even matter if these doctrines ARE extra-Biblical, as long as they do not contradict the Bible, which they most certainly do not. You are working from a false premise.

The millions of believers in the Christian Church, outside of the RCC, understand that Mary was a blessed woman to be able to be the human mother of Jesus, but they don’t pray to her nor do they elevate her beyond what Scripture dictates. I memorized the Magnificat from Luke, but I don’t use it to pray to Mary, etc. I use it simply as a praise to God.

Well, that’s a start then…

And errrrrrr…still waiting for documentation on when the RCC first started teaching that we should pray to Mary.

catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp

There’s a good place to start. You’ll see that praying to saints (Mary included among them) has been in place from the very earliest days of the church.

Now, maybe you can go on Youtube and help us defend against Zeitgeist.

God Bless the Gator Nation.

Roll Tide and go Sooners!

(I think we can all agree that the game yesterday did turn out to be outstanding, even if my team came up short!)

 

[fbl9]

oneGODoneCHURCH;4517580:

I deem her blessed, too. And as I said, I memorized that passage years ago. How could it not be an indescribable blessing to give birth to the Savior and not complain about the lies and innuendo that would come against you for being an unwed mother who claimed God impregnated her! My point is, we simply are not intstructed to pray to anyone but God. Why not pray to Elijah and Moses and Abraham, and don’t forget John the Baptist, of whom Jesus said, “I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist” Guess that would include Mary, eh? The reason we don’t pray to them is that pray is to be directed to God alone! Basic theology.

let’s finish reading the verse sahll we…":yet the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater then him"…so actually you are completely wrong in your assumption.for Mary is indeed in the kingdom of heaven by her faith in her Son Jesus Christ the Lord.

 

[LeroyCRHP]

I don’t even like the title of this thread.

 

[Matariel]

I don’t even like the title of this thread.

I second that notion.

I think the o-pee was trying to make a point, since he’s Catholic also.

 

[CWBetts]

I don’t even like the title of this thread.

If you read the post, he’s comlaining about how Protestants who hate Catholicism seem to thnk thaey know more about Catholicsm than we do, and most of them have never even been to a single Catholic Mass.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

oneGODoneCHURCH;4517580:

I deem her blessed, too. And as I said, I memorized that passage years ago. How could it not be an indescribable blessing to give birth to the Savior and not complain about the lies and innuendo that would come against you for being an unwed mother who claimed God impregnated her! My point is, we simply are not intstructed to pray to anyone but God. Why not pray to Elijah and Moses and Abraham, and don’t forget John the Baptist, of whom Jesus said, “I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist” Guess that would include Mary, eh? The reason we don’t pray to them is that pray is to be directed to God alone! Basic theology.

My question is do you ask your family and friends other in your church to pray for you? that it all prayers to the saints are it a request to them to join us in prayer to God for what ever it is that we need. The Hail Mary is a prime example where we say pray for sinners now and at the hour of our death. prayer to the saint is no more than that.

 

[guanophore]

Christianity will be fully intact and thriving, regardless of which RCC extra-biblical doctrines are exposed.

You are still not getting it, Martin. All the Catholic doctrines are “extra-biblical” in the sense that they preceded the writing of the Scripture. What was the faith that Jesus committed to His Apostles, and commissioned them to teach? Do you imagine that it was somehow deficient when Jesus founded His Church? Do you think that it came out of Him deficient, and remained as such until Sola Scriptura was invented 1500 years later?

“Exposed”? I hope that you will be exposed to the fact that the whole faith was delivered to the Church, not to the Scripture, and that the scripture was never intended to hold everything.

The Bible has faced far more attacks than the RCC has, and as the great Charles Haddon Spurgeon said, you don’t have to defend the Bible, it is like a lion–you simply let it loose!

The Scripture was never meant to be separated from the Church Teaching that produced it. That Church is not “Roman” as you seem to think.

The millions of believers in the Christian Church, outside of the RCC, understand that Mary was a blessed woman to be able to be the human mother of Jesus, but they don’t pray to her nor do they elevate her beyond what Scripture dictates.

Scripture does not “dictate”, Martin. People “dicate”. You are ascribing qualitied to the holy writing that belong to people. In fact, most Protestants don’t elevate Mary even as Scripture reflects was the belief of the church. However, this is not a concern to Catholics, because our faith is based upon the person of Jesus, and we pattern our respect for Mary after His.

I memorized the Magnificat from Luke, but I don’t use it to pray to Mary, etc. I use it simply as a praise to God.

Of course! Using the words of Mary honors her Son.

And errrrrrr…still waiting for documentation on when the RCC first started teaching that we should pray to Mary.

This occurred before the Roman Rite developed. I am still waiting for you to accept what the Scripture records about Mary’s intercession. Unless and until you can do that, giving you anything further will be useless.

My point is, we simply are not intstructed to pray to anyone but God.

I submit to you that your instruction has been deficient.

Why not pray to Elijah and Moses and Abraham, and don’t forget John the Baptist, of whom Jesus said, “I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist”

In fact, these prayers are included in our liturgies. Why do you think Jesus went to such care to make sure His apostles saw Him talking with MOses and Elijah? Why did he not go off on his own to pray as was His habit?

Guess that would include Mary, eh?

Only if you believe that Mary was not born from above by water and Spirit. Although the Scripture does not record her baptism, There is no reason to think that she was not baptized. Those who are Born of God - the least in the Kingdom, are greater by virtue of God’s grace.

The reason we don’t pray to them is that pray is to be directed to God alone! Basic theology.

Really? Where does it say this in your Bible? And why is Jesus talking with Moses and Elijah “instead” of His father? If it is wrong to talk to the saints who have gone on before us, why did He give us such a poor example?

 

[Martin777]

Martin777;4517954:

let’s finish reading the verse sahll we…":yet the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater then him"…so actually you are completely wrong in your assumption.for Mary is indeed in the kingdom of heaven by her faith in her Son Jesus Christ the Lord.

Duh! Doesnt prove a thing.

 

[Ag_not]

fbl9;4518732:

Duh! Doesnt prove a thing.

What do those words mean to you then?

 

[Martin777]

You are still not getting it, Martin. All the Catholic doctrines are “extra-biblical” in the sense that they preceded the writing of the Scripture. What was the faith that Jesus committed to His Apostles, and commissioned them to teach? Do you imagine that it was somehow deficient when Jesus founded His Church? Do you think that it came out of Him deficient, and remained as such until Sola Scriptura was invented 1500 years later?

“Exposed”? I hope that you will be exposed to the fact that the whole faith was delivered to the Church, not to the Scripture, and that the scripture was never intended to hold everything.

The Scripture was never meant to be separated from the Church Teaching that produced it. That Church is not “Roman” as you seem to think.

Scripture does not “dictate”, Martin. People “dicate”. You are ascribing qualitied to the holy writing that belong to people. In fact, most Protestants don’t elevate Mary even as Scripture reflects was the belief of the church. However, this is not a concern to Catholics, because our faith is based upon the person of Jesus, and we pattern our respect for Mary after His.

Of course! Using the words of Mary honors her Son.

This occurred before the Roman Rite developed. I am still waiting for you to accept what the Scripture records about Mary’s intercession. Unless and until you can do that, giving you anything further will be useless.

I submit to you that your instruction has been deficient.

In fact, these prayers are included in our liturgies. Why do you think Jesus went to such care to make sure His apostles saw Him talking with MOses and Elijah? Why did he not go off on his own to pray as was His habit?

Only if you believe that Mary was not born from above by water and Spirit. Although the Scripture does not record her baptism, There is no reason to think that she was not baptized. Those who are Born of God - the least in the Kingdom, are greater by virtue of God’s grace.

Really? Where does it say this in your Bible? And why is Jesus talking with Moses and Elijah “instead” of His father? If it is wrong to talk to the saints who have gone on before us, why did He give us such a poor example?

Correct. But pray to God alone. If you reallty understood the magnitude of his Authority and his love for us and his intercessory position, you would understand how ludicrous praying to Mary is! What an insult to the Sovereign Lord, and what a hideous misunderstanding of Holy Scripture! No wonder you need to claim that it is OK for your leaders to add to Scripture! Do you even realize how misgiven that practice appears to the rest of the Christian world (you know, the poor, misinformed, clueless missionaries, pastors, elders and rank and file Christians that serve their Savior with joy every day and have the Holy Spirit in them to illumine God’s Word!)

 

[hays1122]

If you read the post, he’s comlaining about how Protestants who hate Catholicism seem to thnk thaey know more about Catholicsm than we do, and most of them have never even been to a single Catholic Mass.

I’ve been coming here long enough now to know that there are many Catholics who “hate” protestants and think they know more about what protestants believe then they actually do. Plus many have never been in a protestant church. They only go by word of mouth. Meaning that Catholic leaders also bad mouth protestants.
Yes protestant leaders speak against the Catholic church.
But don’t cry foul when you do the same thing.

 

[guanophore]

Correct. But pray to God alone.

I think the problem here is in the definition of prayer. You seem to define prayer as only worship. If that is the case, then I agree. However, Catholics recognize many forms of prayer besides that directed to God alone.

If you reallty understood the magnitude of his Authority and his love for us and his intercessory position, you would understand how ludicrous praying to Mary is!

I think, if you really understood the magnitude of His plan for humanity, and how much He desires that His love be made manifest between and among us, you would understand what a special privilege it is to intercede for one another.

What an insult to the Sovereign Lord, and what a hideous misunderstanding of Holy Scripture!

What on earth are you talking about?!
Do you think praying for one another is a misunderstanding of scripture?

No wonder you need to claim that it is OK for your leaders to add to Scripture!

No, Martin. I claimed that it was the Catholic Church that produced the NT. All of it, 100%, was “added” by the Catholic Church. Our faith is not derived from the Scriptures, but from Christ. Our faith is reflected in the scriptures.

 Do you even realize how misgiven that practice appears to the rest of the Christian world (you know, the poor, misinformed, clueless missionaries, pastors, elders and rank and file Christians that serve their Savior with joy every day and have the Holy Spirit in them to illumine God's Word!)

Actually, I do realize that. It is a sad fact that so many fervent servants of Christ are separated from the Apostolic Teaching.