"The Catholic Church is wrong"

[sambos671]

I thought the papacy was elected by the guidance of the Holy Spirit?
Did the bishops not trust the Holy Spirit? Or did He (The Holy Spirit) get it wrong the first time?

Interesting questions, no?

It is a good question. But I could bring up personal interpretation by the Holy Spirit is also contradictory. The Bishops (Cardinals) felt that proceedure was not maintained and believed themselves to be right. but it turns out that the Maintenance of the Papacy was accomplished by proper succession. So dispite mens pride things worked out. Peter thought he was right to agree with certain Judiaisers in the first council at Jerusalem. but Paul called him out and set matters straight. Turns out the apostles weren’t perfect either but the Holy Spirit maintained the church.

 

[HankZ]

The Catholics will point to Apostolic Succession. The head of which is Peter who passed the torch on to Linus. (I think) In Rome.

Do you buy that?

 

[HankZ]

It is a good question. But I could bring up personal interpretation by the Holy Spirit is also contradictory. The Bishops (Cardinals) felt that proceedure was not maintained and believed themselves to be right. but it turns out that the Maintenance of the Papacy was accomplished by proper succession. So dispite mens pride things worked out. Peter thought he was right to agree with certain Judiaisers in the first council at Jerusalem. but Paul called him out and set matters straight. Turns out the apostles weren’t perfect either but the Holy Spirit maintained the church.

Could they also be wrong about a person reading the bible apart from the church, and the Holy Spirit helping that person interpate scripture the way God inspired it?

 

[sambos671]

Do you buy that?

I wasn’t there but the documents like Eusibius Ecclesiastical Histories seems to think so. Clement definately acts like a Pope.

 

[sambos671]

Could they also be wrong about a person reading the bible apart from the church, and the Holy Spirit helping that person interpate scripture the way God inspired it?

I’m not sure what you’re asking but if I attempt to guess I would say that the RCC believes that the Church teaching is not seperate or over the teaching of the scripture but each compliment the other for a more full understanding. So God inspired both the Church and the Scriptures. I have a question for you. Tell me of a doctrine that the church as with regard to morals that is not consistent with what the apostles taught.

 

[TotallyConfused]

Could they also be wrong about a person reading the bible apart from the church, and the Holy Spirit helping that person interpate scripture the way God inspired it?

Good question.

It kinda seems like the Holy spirit doesn’t speak as clear as they thought, and they may hear wrong, like what happened mentioned above…

hmmmm

 

[sambos671]

Good question.

It kinda seems like the Holy spirit doesn’t speak as clear as they thought, and they may hear wrong, like what happened mentioned above…

hmmmm

I think the Holy Spirit is clear. People get in the way. Just like Church of Christ think musical instruments are against scriptures but baptist welcomes it. Your argument cuts both ways.

 

[TotallyConfused]

I think the Holy Spirit is clear. People get in the way. Just like Church of Christ think musical instruments are against scriptures but baptist welcomes it. Your argument cuts both ways.

No other church claims infallability by this though…

 

[sambos671]

No other church claims infallability by this though…

Your argument doesn’t really follow. Its another subject. However, infalliblity as the RCC understands it is a prohibition to teach against the morality and the teachings maintained by the church and scriptures. Its not a permisive slip saying what ever the man wants he can teach infallibly. Which is why the church hasn’t used it often. And when it was used it was a definition of an already held consept. Infalliblity does not mean a man is perfect. It means when he is teaching as perscribed he is infallible. For instance a Math teacher may claim to infallibly teach that 2 + 2 = 4. This equation is a fact and follows all the rules of math. The teacher (man) is infallible when saying this. However, he may be working the problem himself and come up with this equation 2 + 2 = 5. He is obviously wrong and has done something outside the perameters of mathmatical rules. The man is faulted but when he taught in proper fashion that 2 + 2 = 4 he was correct. Infalliblity works that way in the Catholic perspective.

 

[TotallyConfused]

Your argument doesn’t really follow. Its another subject. However, infalliblity as the RCC understands it is a prohibition to teach against the morality and the teachings maintained by the church and scriptures. Its not a permisive slip saying what ever the man wants he can teach infallibly. Which is why the church hasn’t used it often. And when it was used it was a definition of an already held consept. Infalliblity does not mean a man is perfect. It means when he is teaching as perscribed he is infallible. For instance a Math teacher may claim to infallibly teach that 2 + 2 = 4. This equation is a fact and follows all the rules of math. The teacher (man) is infallible when saying this. However, he may be working the problem himself and come up with this equation 2 + 2 = 5. He is obviously wrong and has done something outside the perameters of mathmatical rules. The man is faulted but when he taught in proper fashion that 2 + 2 = 4 he was correct. Infalliblity works that way in the Catholic perspective.

Okay, Maybe I used the word incorrectly…but you are still having that “system” choose your pope for you, and that system seems a bit flawed, or left open to interpretations…

 

[guanophore]

Do you mean that she traveled with Him everywhere He went?

Quite a bit, yes.

People can be decieved very easily.

Do you really believe that Lourdes and Fatima are deceptions?

What miracles are you refering to?

The ones at Lourdes and Fatima!

I do not know of anyone who believes that Jesus is the only way and yet waist their time praying to a dead person.

I agree! Jesus was clear that all are alive unto Him, and that those who die in His friendship are alive forevermore!

Catholics are taught that Mary didn’t die, but that is not found in scripture.

No, Catholics are not taught this. We are taught that she was assumed into heaven by her Son.

If she was still alive, God’s word would give some indication if it mattered.

Most of the NT was already written at the time, and the parts that were not written do make reference to her. However, it is an error to think that everything that is important in the spiritual life is found in scripture.

Mary was a Godly woman, according to scripture. She was chosen by God to do a wonderful work. She was married, had several children, lived her life, then she died.

This is not the apostolic teaching.

God’s word tells us it is appointed unto men, once to die, then the judgement.

Do you think Mary existed before God? How then did she become the mother of God? Jesus, the Son of God, was born of her, but He existed since before the foundations of the earth.

Not sure whatyou are getting at here. Do you think that Mary is not the Mother of God? Mary became the mother of Jesus, the second person of the Trinity, when He emptied HImself, and became human.

Do you believe that Mary can somehow pull favors from God for you? She doesn’t know you.

Of course! Didn’t she get several bath sized flagons of wine for the wedding? I think Jesus has a soft spot for mama.

Mary “knows” all the disciples of her son.

Mary is so enthralled with the fact she is in the presence of God that you mean nothing.

This statement implies that being in the presence of God makes a person even more self centered than they are on earth.

Your relationship with God is all that matters for your eternity, same as was Mary. She trusted in God alone to Save her and He was faithful to her, as far as we know. Nothing says she was somehow removed from this earth before her time and that is a false teaching. I do not hate anyone who believes this lie, but only telling you that it is a lie.
HankZ

I agree that our relationship with Godis what matters, but God chose not to be “alone”. He chose to be born into a human family to show us how important family is to Him. And Mary did not just rely on “God alone”. She relied on Joseph, because God gave him to her to help take care of her.

I agree that it is a false teaching that Mary was somehow “removed from the earth before her time”. On the contrary, the Church teaches that when her days were ended, she was laid to rest, and her Son came for her.

I do not hate anyone who believes this lie, but only telling you that it is a lie.
HankZ

A lie, Hank, is a deliberate attempt to deceive someone. We are only passing on what was handed down to us from the Apostles.

These are horrible! You should be repenting of such outragious filth and begging God to forgive you for whorshipping an idol like this false image of this Mary you are so obsessed with. How dare you take what Christ has done and take the Glory due to Him and put it on this false Mary idol. Christ cannot be sacrificed anymore, He said, “It is finished.”
[barfing icon here]
HankZ

If you don’ t like reading the writings of Catholics, you are not obligated to do so. If you think the writings are horrible, why are you here? It is inappropriate for you to come to a Catholic forum and tell us “you should be repenting”. CAF is not a venue for you to give us pastroal guidance, or to judge our faith and practice. CAF is here to answer genuine questions from sincere inquirers. Therefore, I suggest that you get on to posing your question, if you have one. If not, then please take the time to go back and read the forum rules before you break them again.

 

[Methodi]

*You might have been a cradle Catholic and gone through all the motions but you know little or nothing of the Faith as evidenced by the things you say. You reveal no knowledge at all of the Catholic Church. This may not be your fault. I repeat, if you have come to these forums to enquire and learn you will find many people who would be willing to oblige and who will go out of their way to explain.

But please do not become aggressive and insulting. You may have had a bad experience. This happens. On these forums you will encounter friendly people who are willing to engage you and answer all your questions. Some of us know more than others As for me I am a little like you. I was born into the Catholic Church and turned my back on the Church and God for 27 years and now I am back, loving it, learning a lot all the time.

Cinette *

Then You need to learn too, & not be so authorative

 

[guanophore]

I can tell you beyond any question, that if Mary was worthy of the praise she is recieving, God’s word would be evident of that.

And we see that it is!

Tradtions can and are wrong.

No, Hank.

Prayers done in repitition as the pages do, are wrong.

Well, I don’ t know what “pages” these may be. Are you talking about the Psalms? Some of them are repititious.

The rosary is a long repitition of prayers to Mary. She might not be refered to as God, but these prayers given to her, treat her as such.

No, Hank, the request for another person to pray for me does not make them into God. If you pray the Rosary this way, then it is definitely better that you don’t.

I was a Catholic, went to catholic school, an alter boy for years, confermed, babtised, first communion, and told I did not belong in the church because I didn’t make a large enough payment to the church.

I am sorry that someone hurt you deeply by what was said to you. People can be very cruel sometimes. How much of a payment you make does not make you oa member of the church or not. We become members of Christ’s body when we are baptized into it.

I was refused mombership and they refused to babtise my son. I do have a little bit of knowledge of what I speak.

You may have been refused membership in a parish, but no one can make you “unCatholic” for such a reason. It is proper, however, to refuse baptism to an infant who is not going to be raised in the Catholic faith. Clearly you do not hold to the Catholic faith, so you should not make a promise before God that you will raise a child in a faith you do not embrace.

 

[sambos671]

Okay, Maybe I used the word incorrectly…but you are still having that “system” choose your pope for you, and that system seems a bit flawed, or left open to interpretations…

So does sola scriptura.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Since I’m not one of those you are discussing , I’ll just respond by saying welcome back, Brother in Christ, I missed you.


Jon

Thank you Jon, sorry about that late response…

 

[TotallyConfused]

"TotallyConfused:

but you are still having that “system” choose your pope for you, and that system seems a bit flawed, or left open to interpretations…

So does sola scriptura.

The protestants know that there is individual interpretations. They have knowledge as to what they are doing…Catholics place their faith in this to the point where there can and is (in their minds) only one answer, one interpretation and one truth. The system is flawed (as seen when choosing the Pope) but they ignore that and just keep on believing that it’s perfectly accurate and right every time.

Did you read about the popes that have been chosen in the past? They are the most corrupt people you’d ever wanna read about.

 

[Methodi]

This is a false claim. How could there have been 3 popes at one time, yet they were all true popes and they excomunicated the other 2. What you retain is retained, right? All 3 are listed in the records as true popes. Where is the lineage of those 3. How about the wars they would have and kill, just to be pope. It was a very powerful position and you had to be ready to kill for it. That doesn’t sound like the church Christ founded. He died for us, not killed so he could control us.

I am catholic, & I believe in God, But I am not sure about anything else. I am not sure if we even have the true version of the Bible

 

[sambos671]

The protestants know that there is individual interpretations. They have knowledge as to what they are doing…Catholics place their faith in this to the point where there can and is (in their minds) only one answer, one interpretation and one truth. The system is flawed (as seen when choosing the Pope) but they ignore that and just keep on believing that it’s perfectly accurate and right every time.

Did you read about the popes that have been chosen in the past? They are the most corrupt people you’d ever wanna read about.

I thought I did a good job explaining the catholic view of infallibility. Infallibility only relates to perscribed teaching not that the man is perfect or beyond critism.

And the first part of your statement isn’t quite true. You can have a personal interpretation of scripture as long as it doesn’t conflict with the churches teaching. Ie a passage may mean something to you because of a personal issue. You can take it that way. But you can’t take it in such a way as to conflict with the doctrines of the church. Ie God says Homosexuality is ok because I’m commanded to love my neighbor as myself and I’m supposed to greet other men with a brotherly kiss and David loved Jonathan. Those verses cannot be taken that way because it’s not only in conflict with scripture but established church teaching with regards to human sexuality. Where as a protestant could take it that way if they were so inclined.

 

[TotallyConfused]

I thought I did a good job explaining the catholic view of infallibility. Infallibility only relates to perscribed teaching not that the man is perfect or beyond critism.

I didn’t mention or imply infallibility in this reply.

 

[sambos671]

I didn’t mention or imply infallibility in this reply.

I thought it was inherent in your reply due to the statement about Popes being corrupt. That can only be an issue if there is implied perfection or total correctness. Pastors often sin yet they are not called into account because they aren’t considered incorruptable or totally correct. I thought the statement was implied also because it followed from the previous post.