"The Catholic Church is wrong"

[HankZ]

Because its too reasonable for you to disagree with. Not one of these verses takes on games of chance. It addresses greed. Business men are in business to make money. Are they wrong? They take chances too.

What is gambling if not the most greedy game played? If you have an addiction to gambling, you may want to get help for it. I’m pretty sure your priest would tell you the same.

 

[HankZ]

You don’t understand Catholic Doctrine with regard to salvation. Really you should read the Catachism of the Catholic Church. (CCC). Its simple enough to understand. God save mankind by Grace through Faith. A man is drowning in a pool and God pulls him out. Now everything a man does to prevent himself from falling back into the pool is that salvation at work. The man even though has used effort not to fall back into the pull doesn’t consider himself saving himself but the one who pulled him out. He’s just excersising his responsibility and respect of the one who saved him by not jumping back in. Salvation from a Catholic perspective is inclusive of the Christian experience not just being pulled out or Justification. Sanctification is part of it. You leave out the Book of James as well. Luther called it a straw epistle. Hmmm. Wonder why?
As far as Mary is conserned: Why would Samson mother (in the book of Judges), have to follow the Nazerite requirements though she was not the one to be a Nazerite but her son Samson? She had to follow all the Nazerite requirements until Samson was born even though God had appointed Samson to be Israel’s deliverer. So since the OT is fulfilled in the New how then would it be any different for Jesus? And a greater one is Jesus to Samson.

Where is the seal that Paul has spoken of in Ephesians 1? Where is your faith in Jesus’ saving power? Is it only limited to your ability? How hard it must be for you to sleep, not knowing if you fall under God’s grace or His wrath.

 

[sambos671]

The “Old” religion of Jesus’ time, was not God’s religion. One clear example is when Jesus went into the temple with a make shift whip. He also spoke of His Father’s house being turned into a den of thieves. The followers of God had been replaced by hypocratical men who followed the traditons of men rather then the commandments of God. They simply made up their own rules and laws and acted as though these came from God. It had become a false religion. Can you think of 3 prophets who came from within the Church? They didn’t, they were sent to the church. Why did God send the prophets to the church, was it not to correct it? How then is it that someone outside the church tells you of the false doctrines being taught, do you say, your not a part of the church so you can’t know the truth? How do you know if you do not search the Living Word for the real truth? I know you will tell me, because other men say so, and you reject it just as quikly, but do you remember that God used a donkey to relay truth to Baalim? God is able to speak through non-believers as is the case with Baalim as well.

FYI-I am exposed to “real” Catholics. I and a few other Christian brothers go a preach the true gospel to the lost(mostly Catholics) as they are going from bar to bar. I hear the same tired excuses from them as I hear on this forum. Yet I am told that I have it all wrong and how my Church is just like yours? I have never seen a member of the church I attend at this rampage of lust and drunkenness. Do true Christians fall, certainly, but we are talking to many of the same Catholics time after time. We are laughed at and made fun of. Sometimes they even get angry at us, much like the treatment I have recieved here. With this experience, when I come across someone I believe, has shut their heart off from hearing the truth, I pray for them and move on without waisting anymore of their time or mine.
HankZ

Jesus never derided the Jews for temple worship or following Torah. What he did have a problem with was that the Jewish leaders weren’t even following their own laws or living by Torah. He drove out the people who were charging extravigant amounts to people for their sacrifices making it difficult for those with little means to uphold the Law. He didn’t say don’t sacrifice. Don’t fulfill the Law. He did make the law easy to understand by making into two summery statements 1) love God with all your Heart 2) Love your neihbor as yourself. This was better than the typical Jewish responce by trying to create a hedge around the law to “protect” it. In which, many even broke Torah by adhering to the Hedge this is what he says

13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[c

A direct referrence to the Hedge I discussed then he also says

23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

Not against Judaism but against missing the point of it. Also a referrence to the hedge around Torah.

But here in the 2nd verse this is what Jesus says:

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the** Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do**

, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
which is the point of all the discourses. Not that the “Old Religion” was wrong but that the Pharisees didn’t even follow it and emphasised all the wrong things about it. Yet Jesus tells them to do what the Pharisees told them with regard to the Torah. These leaders were not practicing what they taught and the Hedge to protect the Law worked against it.

A “real” catholic is one who follows their faith. Not one who stumbles around drunk.
[/quote]

 

[sambos671]

What is gambling if not the most greedy game played? If you have an addiction to gambling, you may want to get help for it. I’m pretty sure your priest would tell you the same.

My point was about the verses. Gambeling is a sickness which needs attention. Over eating is also a sickness, as is alcoholism, as is many other things that aren’t taken in moderation. Is food a sin? No. Over eating is. Is eating a sin? No but over eating is. The verses you quote are about greed not gambeling. Gambeling can promote greed. I don’t gamble and I don’t have a priest as yet. I’m not in full communion with the church as yet.

 

[HankZ]

Try dry witticisms when you have no come back? Hmm, maybe a wise move.

If you can’t answer someone’s question because you really just don’thave any, call them fools. That should set them right. It will confuse them. It will cover up the fact that you don’t know the answer. Make it look like your being cool and maybe cover up all that ignorance.

Good evading tactic. Not something you can keep up for long though. Because one way or another, they will find up just what you’re up to.

Swinging a double sided sword. You have done in this post the very thing that you accuse of me. I remember a word for this; it starts with an “H.” Need any more hints?

 

[sambos671]

Where is the seal that Paul has spoken of in Ephesians 1? Where is your faith in Jesus’ saving power? Is it only limited to your ability? How hard it must be for you to sleep, not knowing if you fall under God’s grace or His wrath.

Did you read the words you quoted? Read them again and then think of your reply

Where is your faith in Jesus’ saving power? Is it only limited to your ability

How can you even ask this? When I said this:

A man is drowning in a pool and God pulls him out. Now everything a man does to prevent himself from falling back into the pool is that salvation at work.** The man **even though has used effort not to fall back into the pool doesn’t consider himself saving himself but the one who pulled him out

 

[wisdomseeker]

You could have a point. However, how much biblical truth have you stuffed in order to remain in the Catholic faith, or do you claim to agree with everything the church teaches? Luther tried to change the church from within, but they refused to listen to reason.

we are to obey the command that Jesus gave. Whoever hears you hears Me and my Father in Heaven.

do you think that this command was only to the people of that time or it is also to us today?

Jesus never said to hear the Bible but to hear the Apostles.

do you think with the Apostles gone we no longer have noone we should obey? Jesus said He would build a Church and hte gates of hell would not prevail against. which Church do you think Jesus is talking about? the One who came and put the Bible together or those opened after the Bible was compiled? or do you also believe that this Church is invisible?

do you know what Covenant means?

do you think the promises of Christ was only to those of His time.

Jesus also said I will not leave you orphans? a Church is built so we wouldnt be orphans. obeying His Church is obeying God Himself.

hope you see the light.

Peace.

 

[sambos671]

Where is the seal that Paul has spoken of in Ephesians 1? Where is your faith in Jesus’ saving power? Is it only limited to your ability? How hard it must be for you to sleep, not knowing if you fall under God’s grace or His wrath.

What does

13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

verse have to do with the discussion? Catholics believe they are marked with a seal by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. They even go so far as to say they continually commune with the Holy Spirit by in taking the body and blood of Jesus Christ regularily.

 

[twb1621]

Blogging from ny Blackberry as I get ready to work (Yes, you can!). I didn’t ask to debate Calvinism, but rather the nature of salvation by grace through faith. The two do overlap, however. What I asked for was a discussion of Eph 2:8,9; Rom 3 and 4 and Jesus’ response when asked, “What must we do that we may work the works of God?”. Sweet grace! But…that will have to wait til tonight. I pray it will be more than mental gymnastics. God Bless.

Eph 2:8,9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so no one may boast.

The above describes salvation in the way Paul elsewhere speaks of justification: by grace, through faith, the gift of God, not from works, which is not disputed. But maintaining salvation is conditioned upon our remaining without the performance of those principals that establish sin. Since we are human and our very nature breeds weakness to sin, there is no guarantee we have “earned” our salvation as long as we have the ability to fall.

What is your take on the following;
Another verse from St. Paul is:

For if we deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgement. [Hebrews 10:26-27; RSV]

Please note that the “we” in this verse also included St. Paul - a faith-filled, baptized Christian! After Baptism if we sin deliberately and remain unrepentant, then we can lose the gift of salvation. In Baptism we receive Sanctifying Grace in our souls by no merit of our own, but afterwards we must cooperate with this grace or we will lose it (2 Cor 6:1). This cooperation with God’s redeeming grace is the Catholic understanding of merit (CCC 162; 2025).
Fortunately God has given us the Sacrament of Confession (Penance or Reconciliation), so we can receive His continuing forgiveness for our sins committed after Baptism. Since we continue to sin after receiving Baptism (1 John 1:8-9), we must continually repent, confess our sins and turn our heart (will) back to Christ. Repentance is not a single event in our life, but must be an ongoing, everyday process for us. Yesterday we may have sincerely repented and been forgiven, but tomorrow through our weakness, we may stumble back into sin (2 Peter 2:20-22). We can be assured that Jesus will forgive us as often as we forgive others (Luke 6:36-37; Matt 6:14-15). Through this Sacrament, we receive Sanctifying Grace and Actual Graces which can help us resist future sins.
Jesus understands our weakness even after Baptism. This is the reason that He gave His Apostles the authority to forgive sins:

…He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” [John 20:22-23]
Through the centuries this authority has been handed on to the bishops and priests as the Sacrament of Confession. Christians today need forgiveness for their sins as much as those in the first century A.D. In addition the authority to either forgive or retain implies oral confession (disclosure) of our sins since the priest needs to know the nature of the sins (Acts 19:18; Leviticus 5:5-6).
Even though our personal salvation is not assured, we still must hope in it. In the Bible, St. Paul uses the phrases: “the hope of salvation” [1 Thess 5:8] or “hope of eternal life” [Titus 1:2; 3:7]. If we were assured of heaven, then there would be no need for hope. Hope is not the same as assurance (Romans 8:24). According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC):

Hope is the confident expectation of divine blessing and the beatific vision of God; it is also the fear of offending God’s love and incurring punishment. [CCC 2090]
The two sins against hope are despair and presumption (CCC 2091). The sin of despair is losing hope in our salvation by failing to trust God. The sin of presumption is losing hope by either relying on ourselves for our salvation instead of God or taking God’s mercy for granted without fear. Denying our sinfulness or believing “once saved, always saved” can lead us into the sin of presumption. However, we must not go the other extreme and fall into the sin of despair. Hope is a delicate balance between confidence in God’s promise and fear of the Lord (Proverbs 1:7).
God wants all of us to be saved from hell and come to know the truth (1 Tim 2:4). Through Christ’s Church - the Catholic Church, we can come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 3:15; Matt 16:18). Through the Sacraments we receive God’s saving grace as a free gift. But afterwards we must cooperate with that grace, since we have the free will (choice) to reject God at anytime through serious disobedience, i.e. mortal sin. After receiving God’s redeeming grace in Baptism, we must continue to “work out (our) own salvation with fear and trembling” [Philip 2:12]. Through Confession, we can ask God for His continuing merciful forgiveness and more graces to help us resist sins in the future. As sinners we are not assured of our salvation. But Christians, who faithfully use the Sacraments -Channels of God’s saving grace - without giving up, can certainly hope for salvation.
users.binary.net/polycarp/hope.html

 

[HankZ]

Did you read the words you quoted? Read them again and then think of your reply How can you even ask this? When I said this:

I read this several times;

Ephesians 1:4-5;
Just as He CHOSE us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blaimless before Him. In love He PREDESTINED us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, acccording to the kind intention of His will.

Ephesians 1:13;
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation- having also believed, you were SEALED in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. 14 Who is given as a PLEDGE OF OUR INHERITANCE, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

According to the words Paul used, we are; Chosen, predestined, sealed and we are given the Holy Spirit as proof of our inheritance which is in Christ.
HankZ

 

[sambos671]

I read this several times;

Ephesians 1:4-5;
Just as He CHOSE us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blaimless before Him. In love He PREDESTINED us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, acccording to the kind intention of His will.

Ephesians 1:13;
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation- having also believed, you were SEALED in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. 14 Who is given as a PLEDGE OF OUR INHERITANCE, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

According to the words Paul used, we are; Chosen, predestined, sealed and we are given the Holy Spirit as proof of our inheritance which is in Christ.
HankZ

No one denies God predestined us but question what you mean by that. God Also “desires that all men might be saved” And for all who are born again into his family they are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Catholics believe this. You are in effect preaching to the choir.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Jimmy B,

This was excellent - thank you very much for this post.

Tom

For starters you can look –
Here
Here
Here
Here
And
Mt 7:21
Mt 23:13
Rom 11:22
Phil 2:12
1 Cor 9:27
1 Cor 10:11-12
Gal 5:4
2 Tim 2:11-13
Heb 6:4-6
Heb 10:26-27

For the answers.

That was easy…Next. :thankyou:

 

[twb1621]

I read this several times;

Ephesians 1:4-5;
Just as He CHOSE us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blaimless before Him. In love He PREDESTINED us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, acccording to the kind intention of His will.

Ephesians 1:13;
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation- having also believed, you were SEALED in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. 14 Who is given as a PLEDGE OF OUR INHERITANCE, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

According to the words Paul used, we are; Chosen, predestined, sealed and we are given the Holy Spirit as proof of our inheritance which is in Christ.
HankZ

For if we deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgement. [Hebrews 10:26-27; RSV]

Please note that the “we” in this verse also included St. Paul - a faith-filled, baptized Christian! After Baptism if we sin deliberately and remain unrepentant, then we can lose the gift of salvation. In Baptism we receive Sanctifying Grace in our souls by no merit of our own, but afterwards we must cooperate with this grace or we will lose it (2 Cor 6:1). This cooperation with God’s redeeming grace is the Catholic understanding of merit (CCC 162; 2025).
Fortunately God has given us the Sacrament of Confession (Penance or Reconciliation), so we can receive His continuing forgiveness for our sins committed after Baptism. Since we continue to sin after receiving Baptism (1 John 1:8-9), we must continually repent, confess our sins and turn our heart (will) back to Christ. Repentance is not a single event in our life, but must be an ongoing, everyday process for us. Yesterday we may have sincerely repented and been forgiven, but tomorrow through our weakness, we may stumble back into sin (2 Peter 2:20-22). We can be assured that Jesus will forgive us as often as we forgive others (Luke 6:36-37; Matt 6:14-15). Through this Sacrament, we receive Sanctifying Grace and Actual Graces which can help us resist future sins.
Jesus understands our weakness even after Baptism. This is the reason that He gave His Apostles the authority to forgive sins:

…He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” [John 20:22-23]
Through the centuries this authority has been handed on to the bishops and priests as the Sacrament of Confession. Christians today need forgiveness for their sins as much as those in the first century A.D. In addition the authority to either forgive or retain implies oral confession (disclosure) of our sins since the priest needs to know the nature of the sins (Acts 19:18; Leviticus 5:5-6).
Even though our personal salvation is not assured, we still must hope in it. In the Bible, St. Paul uses the phrases: “the hope of salvation” [1 Thess 5:8] or “hope of eternal life” [Titus 1:2; 3:7]. If we were assured of heaven, then there would be no need for hope. Hope is not the same as assurance (Romans 8:24). According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC):

Hope is the confident expectation of divine blessing and the beatific vision of God; it is also the fear of offending God’s love and incurring punishment. [CCC 2090]
The two sins against hope are despair and presumption (CCC 2091). The sin of despair is losing hope in our salvation by failing to trust God. The sin of presumption is losing hope by either relying on ourselves for our salvation instead of God or taking God’s mercy for granted without fear. Denying our sinfulness or believing “once saved, always saved” can lead us into the sin of presumption. However, we must not go the other extreme and fall into the sin of despair. Hope is a delicate balance between confidence in God’s promise and fear of the Lord (Proverbs 1:7).
God wants all of us to be saved from hell and come to know the truth (1 Tim 2:4). Through Christ’s Church - the Catholic Church, we can come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 3:15; Matt 16:18). Through the Sacraments we receive God’s saving grace as a free gift. But afterwards we must cooperate with that grace, since we have the free will (choice) to reject God at anytime through serious disobedience, i.e. mortal sin. After receiving God’s redeeming grace in Baptism, we must continue to “work out (our) own salvation with fear and trembling” [Philip 2:12]. Through Confession, we can ask God for His continuing merciful forgiveness and more graces to help us resist sins in the future. As sinners we are not assured of our salvation. But Christians, who faithfully use the Sacraments -Channels of God’s saving grace - without giving up, can certainly hope for salvation.
users.binary.net/polycarp/hope.html

 

[sambos671]

Hank, lets look at some scripture

30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a]have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we** rejoice in the hope** of the glory of God. **3Not only so, but we[c] also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces **perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

Catholics believed we are justified by faith (being pulled out of the pool) and that they have gained access (living on the dry ground which includes not jumping back in). But that faith allows for joy in suffering because it builds character (while on dry ground I become a better person for not jumping back in)

1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
So what you consider works is actually living salvation. (I am actively not jumping back in the pool and ensure the things I do keep me from its edge).

12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness

. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means To be an instrument of righteousness by definition requires it to do something. Instrument is only one if it acts as one.

27Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world

So James understands that works is salvation living itself out. because ultimately

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead

.
18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and** his faith was made complete by what he did.**

 

[HankZ]

What does verse have to do with the discussion? Catholics believe they are marked with a seal by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. They even go so far as to say they continually commune with the Holy Spirit by in taking the body and blood of Jesus Christ regularily.

I do not need to go through some traditional action as was rebuked by Jesus. The ritualistic washing of hands has been replaced with many new ideas, but the principle is the same. The actions some how bring you closer to God. I have the Holy Spirit as my pledge from God that He has saved me from my sins and I am a child of the most high God. This is how I know that I am a full fledge member of Christ’s church, which is His body and He is the head.

 

[sambos671]

I do not need to go through some traditional action as was rebuked by Jesus. The ritualistic washing of hands has been replaced with many new ideas, but the principle is the same. The actions some how bring you closer to God. I have the Holy Spirit as my pledge from God that He has saved me from my sins and I am a child of the most high God. This is how I know that I am a full fledge member of Christ’s church, which is His body and He is the head.

Jesus never rebuked the Jews for Tradition but when tradition was taken in such a manner as to overlook the Law… He rebuked them for hypocrasy. As the verses I have shown you previously show. Actions are the result of faith. Catholics understand this. Holy Spirit is a seal for Catholics in their faith as well. There is no divergence. As far as being a member of Christ church are you talking about the invisible church? How do you know you have the seal of the Holy Spirit? By how you feel? That’s a poor indicator. Or by speaking in tongues? Thats a better indicator but it requires action. However, most pentecostal “speaking” in tongues is more of a euphoric blabbing based on the emotional state of the individual after they sing songs that are purposely arranged in such a manner as to cause hyperventilation after (what you accuse Catholics of) much repition of a phrase. The best indicator is how you live which also requires action.

 

[HankZ]

Hank, lets look at some scripture

Catholics believed we are justified by faith (being pulled out of the pool) and that they have gained access (living on the dry ground which includes not jumping back in). But that faith allows for joy in suffering because it builds character (while on dry ground I become a better person for not jumping back in)

So what you consider works is actually living salvation. (I am actively not jumping back in the pool and ensure the things I do keep me from its edge). To be an instrument of righteousness by definition requires it to do something. Instrument is only one if it acts as one. So James understands that works is salvation living itself out. because ultimately

You are missing what God’s grace really is. If you can fall back in the water, then it is not grace. The gift of salvation is a free gift. It can’t be earned and it can’t be taken away. If it is earned, then it is a wage. If it can be taken away, then it is not given to you in the first place. God does not hold salvation in front of us like a carrot to a donkey, where He takes it away if we sin bad enough. Once saved, you hate the sins you have done and the sins you will still do. He works in your life to clean up the garbage you have piled up.

I do not disagree with doing good works either. However, you can do no good works apart from Christ. Once you have Christ as your Savior, you want to do His will.

 

[HankZ]

Jesus never rebuked the Jews for Tradition but when tradition was taken in such a manner as to overlook the Law… He rebuked them for hypocrasy. As the verses I have shown you previously show. Actions are the result of faith. Catholics understand this. Holy Spirit is a seal for Catholics in their faith as well. There is no divergence. As far as being a member of Christ church are you talking about the invisible church? How do you know you have the seal of the Holy Spirit? By how you feel? That’s a poor indicator. Or by speaking in tongues? Thats a better indicator but it requires action. However, most pentecostal “speaking” in tongues is more of a euphoric blabbing based on the emotional state of the individual after they sing songs that are purposely arranged in such a manner as to cause hyperventilation after (what you accuse Catholics of) much repition of a phrase. The best indicator is how you live which also requires action.

Mark 7:8
Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the traditions of men.

 

[HankZ]

Jesus never rebuked the Jews for Tradition but when tradition was taken in such a manner as to overlook the Law… He rebuked them for hypocrasy. As the verses I have shown you previously show. Actions are the result of faith. Catholics understand this. Holy Spirit is a seal for Catholics in their faith as well. There is no divergence. As far as being a member of Christ church are you talking about the invisible church? How do you know you have the seal of the Holy Spirit? By how you feel? That’s a poor indicator. Or by speaking in tongues? Thats a better indicator but it requires action. However, most pentecostal “speaking” in tongues is more of a euphoric blabbing based on the emotional state of the individual after they sing songs that are purposely arranged in such a manner as to cause hyperventilation after (what you accuse Catholics of) much repition of a phrase. The best indicator is how you live which also requires action.

How do you know you have breath in your lounges? That is how I know I am filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[sambos671]

You are missing what God’s grace really is. If you can fall back in the water, then it is not grace. The gift of salvation is a free gift. It can’t be earned and it can’t be taken away. If it is earned, then it is a wage. If it can be taken away, then it is not given to you in the first place. God does not hold salvation in front of us like a carrot to a donkey, where He takes it away if we sin bad enough. Once saved, you hate the sins you have done and the sins you will still do. He works in your life to clean up the garbage you have piled up.

I do not disagree with doing good works either. However, you can do no good works apart from Christ. Once you have Christ as your Savior, you want to do His will.

God never takes away salvation but like any gift it can be discarded.