"The Catholic Church is wrong"

[SD_Catholic]

[QUOTEHankZ;4529588]

A true Christian can’t turn from the truth. The Holy Spirit is in him and will lead him into all truth and correct him. Sometimes painfully. Look at the life of Jimmy Baker. He was so far down a path that he did have an affair on his wife. Read his book, “I was wrong.” I think he is a saved man who is a perfect example of how true Christian’s can fall but still be saved. If someone who has a “feelings” conversion, they really have not converted back to that which he never left.

We also believe that Christians can fall and still be saved… in fact we believe they fall a lot and if they ask for forgiveness they can still be saved…

Don’t you think there have been many people who have been told and have even totally believed they were in a state of salvation… “been saved”… only to fall and never return? I have heard of people that did the same thing you say you are doing only to later have that person totally reject God… and even turn athiest… And I can promise you that if you would have asked that person at the hight of their ministry if they were saved they would have said yes just as assuredly as you do at this moment… You say that they have not converted back, but what if they never do “convert” back… are they still saved? How then could of that person claimed he was “saved” without doubt… how can anyone tell anyone without a doubt they are “saved” without knowing wether or not that person may at some point in their lives totally reject God?

SD

 

[Roamin_Xian]

we are to obey the command that Jesus gave. Whoever hears you hears Me and my Father in Heaven.

Jesus never said to hear the Bible but to hear the Apostles.

Yes, to hear the Apostles. That message was to the Apostles, not Constantine and the Roman imperialism he imposed. It was rather difficult to listen to to some Popes while they were preoccupied with their materialistic objectives or their mistresses.

do you think with the Apostles gone we no longer have noone we should obey? Jesus said He would build a Church and hte gates of hell would not prevail against. which Church do you think Jesus is talking about? the One who came and put the Bible together or those opened after the Bible was compiled? or do you also believe that this Church is invisible?

Jesus also said I will not leave you orphans? a Church is built so we wouldnt be orphans. obeying His Church is obeying God Himself.

It seems like Rome has often left the faithful as orphans. Even 1100-1200 years after Christ, the great St. Francis of Assisi was asked to help rebuild the Church, due to the crumbling nature of the institution.

Cold hierarchies that relocated predatory pedophile priests to different parishes. Imperialist mindset of imposing of bishops on dioceses, without lay participation. I have conflict with how Rome runs its affairs like this is still the 17th century. Vatican has achieved wonderful things, but it doesn’t have the unique claim to Christ as it would so deign.

hope you see the light.

Peace.

 

[SD_Catholic]

HankZ:
Hey Hank… I realize that you are probably very busy at the moment so if you need to focus on one topic at a time, than please answer the others first as they surely deserve answers before me…

SD

 

[tqualey]

Hi, HankZ,

Sounds like things are not going well… Let’s take a look at this statement and see what we do about it:

The “Old” religion of Jesus’ time, was not God’s religion. One clear example is when Jesus went into the temple with a make shift whip. He also spoke of His Father’s house being turned into a den of thieves. The followers of God had been replaced by hypocratical men who followed the traditons of men rather then the commandments of God. They simply made up their own rules and laws and acted as though these came from God. It had become a false religion.

As I understand it, this “Old Religion” was the one established by God - and, unless you know something that I don’t, the Jews are still the Chosen People. During the life of Christ, He faithfully observed the requirements (‘works’) of the “Old Religion”. Christ also told those listening to Him to follow what the Jewish leaders told the people to do because they rightly “…sit on the Chair of Moses…” (Matt 23) . There must be some legitimacy here if Christ is telling His followers to obey the words of the Pharisees.

Of course, the rest of Matt 23 goes to great lengths on how these same legitimate leaders have been less then honest and will be subject to judgment for their misdeeds. But, this does not through out the “Old Religion” only those members who abused it were criticized. As I understand your statement … there is an advocacy for really throwing the baby out with the bath water. But, let’s not stop there…

Can you think of 3 prophets who came from within the Church?

I really do not understand the your question. As I recall, the role of the Prophet ended with last Prophet, John the Baptist. Please explain what you want - and if you are asking for 3… does this mean that there are 1 or 2 that you know about?

Do you meant the Early Church (and that would be Catholic Church) Fathers?

FYI-I am exposed to “real” Catholics.

You will need to define your terms here. Just what is a ‘real’ Catholic? Don’t you think you are communicating with ‘real’ Catholics - albeit sober ones… but, just as ‘real’?

I and a few other Christian brothers go a preach the true gospel to the lost(mostly Catholics) as they are going from bar to bar.

Truly, this is very commendable. It looks like about 1:12 people in the US are alcholoics. I am quite confident that your focus and dedication in helping these sick people are noted by God.

I hear the same tired excuses from them as I hear on this forum.

There you go, again: confusing those who do not apply the message (like the Pharisees in the above paragraph) with the Message itself. Now, if all Catholics (‘real’ or imagined) were going from bar to bar - the RCC would have perished long ago with everyone dying of massive liver failure. Such is not the case. Please make the distinction between the use and the abuse of an item - there really is a difference.

Yet I am told that I have it all wrong and how my Church is just like yours? I have never seen a member of the church I attend at this rampage of lust and drunkenness.

Hank, it could be you are going to the wrong bars… This 1:12 cuts across all lines - alcoholism is an illness. Does this mean that diabetics show up at do-nut shops and eat at ice ceam bars? I am afraid so… A lot of people with chronic disease fall off of the ‘wagon’ (whatever ‘wagon’ they are trying to ride). Is this good? Of course not (unless you happen to run do-nut shops and iice cream bars… )

Do true Christians fall, certainly, but we are talking to many of the same Catholics time after time. We are laughed at and made fun of. Sometimes they even get angry at us, much like the treatment I have recieved here. With this experience, when I come across someone I believe, has shut their heart off from hearing the truth, I pray for them and move on without waisting anymore of their time or mine.

And, just how many times does the :Just Man’ fall? Seven (per day) I think (Proverbs 24:16) And, just how many times are we to forgive our brother for his failings? Peter thought seven was being generous (Matt 18:21) … and by this I think Peter was actually addressing one more then six - as opposed to an infinite number. Christ made an immediate correctionto Peter’s math. I think there is a lesson here for all of us.

One of the biggest problems with the statements you presented in this post is that they rests on both a limited sample size and there is this employment of generalizations and stereotypes - with just a touch of victimization - that seems to characterize these posts.Try not to take things personally - but, you are expected to do better.

I hope this helps.

God bless.

 

[Roamin_Xian]

I’ll have to agree with Jews for Judaism on this one- you can’t be Jewish and adhere to Christian religion.

 

[HankZ]

We also believe that Christians can fall and still be saved… in fact we believe they fall a lot and if they ask for forgiveness they can still be saved…

Don’t you think there have been many people who have been told and have even totally believed they were in a state of salvation… “been saved”… only to fall and never return? I have heard of people that did the same thing you say you are doing only to later have that person totally reject God… and even turn athiest… And I can promise you that if you would have asked that person at the hight of their ministry if they were saved they would have said yes just as assuredly as you do at this moment… You say that they have not converted back, but what if they never do “convert” back… are they still saved? How then could of that person claimed he was “saved” without doubt… how can anyone tell anyone without a doubt they are “saved” without knowing wether or not that person may at some point in their lives totally reject God?

SD

What I was saying is if a person, after believing themself to be saved then turns their back on God, they have not left that which they always were, unsaved. You may think you cannot know you are saved, but that goes against scripture. We are given clear passages to that fact. False beliefs are nothing new, people can and do believe some far out stuff. People believe in alians, because I don’t, that doesn’t stop me from believing there is an outer space. You may believe that salvation comes by or is kept by works, I still know that I’m saved by faith alone. The Holy Spirit is my proof.

 

[CWBetts]

What I was saying is if a person, after believing themself to be saved then turns their back on God, they have not left that which they always were, unsaved. You may think you cannot know you are saved, but that goes against scripture. We are given clear passages to that fact. False beliefs are nothing new, people can and do believe some far out stuff. People believe in alians, because I don’t, that doesn’t stop me from believing there is an outer space. You may believe that salvation comes by or is kept by works, I still know that I’m saved by faith alone. The Holy Spirit is my proof.

Point out one passage, that when taken IN CONTEXT, that shows we can be 100% sure of salvation.

 

[HankZ]

Hi, HankZ,

Sounds like things are not going well… Let’s take a look at this statement and see what we do about it:

As I understand it, this “Old Religion” was the one established by God - and, unless you know something that I don’t, the Jews are still the Chosen People. During the life of Christ, He faithfully observed the requirements (‘works’) of the “Old Religion”. Christ also told those listening to Him to follow what the Jewish leaders told the people to do because they rightly “…sit on the Chair of Moses…” (Matt 23) . There must be some legitimacy here if Christ is telling His followers to obey the words of the Pharisees.

Of course, the rest of Matt 23 goes to great lengths on how these same legitimate leaders have been less then honest and will be subject to judgment for their misdeeds. But, this does not through out the “Old Religion” only those members who abused it were criticized. As I understand your statement … there is an advocacy for really throwing the baby out with the bath water. But, let’s not stop there…

I really do not understand the your question. As I recall, the role of the Prophet ended with last Prophet, John the Baptist. Please explain what you want - and if you are asking for 3… does this mean that there are 1 or 2 that you know about?

Do you meant the Early Church (and that would be Catholic Church) Fathers?

You will need to define your terms here. Just what is a ‘real’ Catholic? Don’t you think you are communicating with ‘real’ Catholics - albeit sober ones… but, just as ‘real’?

Truly, this is very commendable. It looks like about 1:12 people in the US are alcholoics. I am quite confident that your focus and dedication in helping these sick people are noted by God.

There you go, again: confusing those who do not apply the message (like the Pharisees in the above paragraph) with the Message itself. Now, if all Catholics (‘real’ or imagined) were going from bar to bar - the RCC would have perished long ago with everyone dying of massive liver failure. Such is not the case. Please make the distinction between the use and the abuse of an item - there really is a difference.

Hank, it could be you are going to the wrong bars… This 1:12 cuts across all lines - alcoholism is an illness. Does this mean that diabetics show up at do-nut shops and eat at ice ceam bars? I am afraid so… A lot of people with chronic disease fall off of the ‘wagon’ (whatever ‘wagon’ they are trying to ride). Is this good? Of course not (unless you happen to run do-nut shops and iice cream bars… )

And, just how many times does the :Just Man’ fall? Seven (per day) I think (Proverbs 24:16) And, just how many times are we to forgive our brother for his failings? Peter thought seven was being generous (Matt 18:21) … and by this I think Peter was actually addressing one more then six - as opposed to an infinite number. Christ made an immediate correctionto Peter’s math. I think there is a lesson here for all of us.

One of the biggest problems with the statements you presented in this post is that they rests on both a limited sample size and there is this employment of generalizations and stereotypes - with just a touch of victimization - that seems to characterize these posts.Try not to take things personally - but, you are expected to do better.

I hope this helps.

God bless.

You make a valid point and I will have to concider it, that Jesus told them(the Jews) to follow the men in the seats of Moses. This is a far cry from the RCC being the church started by God in Isreal, unless you believe in the falsely taught replacement theory.

Did you have anything else to say or was this just all about being nasty?

 

[twb1621]

What I was saying is if a person, after believing themself to be saved then turns their back on God, they have not left that which they always were, unsaved. You may think you cannot know you are saved, but that goes against scripture. We are given clear passages to that fact. False beliefs are nothing new, people can and do believe some far out stuff. People believe in alians, because I don’t, that doesn’t stop me from believing there is an outer space. You may believe that salvation comes by or is kept by works, I still know that I’m saved by faith alone. The Holy Spirit is my proof.

Hankz, then what would be the point in the final judgement if there is nothing to judge one on?

 

[HankZ]

Point out one passage, that when taken IN CONTEXT, that shows we can be 100% sure of salvation.

I will refer you back to post #919.

 

[HankZ]

Hankz, then what would be the point in the final judgement if there is nothing to judge one on?

The question is not what will be judged, but who. Those are saved will avoid the last judgement. We will have already been given our judgement with Christ as our advocate.

 

[Cinette]

**THE **CHRISTMAS BELL

I KNOW WHO I AM
I am God’s child (John 1:12)
I am Christ’s friend (John 15:15 )
I am united with the Lord (1 Cor. 6:17)
I am bought with a price (1 Cor 6:19-20)
I am a saint (set apart for God). (Eph. 1:1)
I am a personal witness of Christ. (Acts 1:8)
I am the salt & light of the earth (Matt 5:13-14)
I am a member of the body of Christ (1 Cor 12:27)
I am free forever from condemnation ( Rom. 8: 1-2)
I am a citizen of Heaven. I am significant (Phil 3:20)
I am free from any charge against me (Rom. 8:31 -34)
I am a minister of reconciliation for God (2 Cor 5:17-21)
I have access to God through the Holy Spirit (Eph… 2:18)
I am seated with Christ in the heavenly realms (Eph. 2:6)
I cannot be separated from the love of God (Rom 8:35-39)
I am established, anointed, sealed by God (2 Cor 1:21-22 )
I am assured all things work together for good (Rom… 8:28 )
I have been chosen and appointed to bear fruit (John 15:16 )
I may approach God with freedom and confidence (Eph. 3: 12 )
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me (Phil. 4:13)
I am the branch of the true vine, a channel of His life (John 15: 1-5)
I am God’s temple (1 Cor. 3: 16). I am complete in Christ (Col. 2: 10)
I am hidden with Christ in God ( Col. 3:3). I have been justified (Romans 5:1)
I am God’s co-worker (1 Cor. 3:9; 2 Cor 6:1). I am God’s workmanship (Eph. 2:10)
I am confident that the good works God has begun in me will be perfected. (Phil. 1: 5)
I have been redeemed and forgiven ( Col 1:14). I have been adopted as God’s child (Eph 1:5)

 

[HankZ]

That may very well be true. In fact, I’m sure it is. However, there are several schools of thought about this in the Catholic Church some take a literal meaning others don’t. The fact is what do you condiser is the biblical truths of these stories? That they happened literally or that 1) God created the universe. 2) There are no other gods apart from him 3) That he is soverign 4) That He established order 5) He created man in his own image 6) Man by his own volition fell and needs redemption 7) God supplies that redemption himself 8) God is just and requires payment for sin 9) God has mercy. Did your Catholic teachers teach against any of these principles? What passages in the bible don’t you take literally? "this is my Body "?

This is what I was saying, a bible truth is brought out, and then we have to check it against mens words to see if it is in fact true.
Why do you question Him?

 

[HankZ]

**THE **CHRISTMAS BELL

I KNOW WHO I AM
I am God’s child (John 1:12)
I am Christ’s friend (John 15:15 )
I am united with the Lord (1 Cor. 6:17)
I am bought with a price (1 Cor 6:19-20)
I am a saint (set apart for God). (Eph. 1:1)
I am a personal witness of Christ. (Acts 1:8)
I am the salt & light of the earth (Matt 5:13-14)
I am a member of the body of Christ (1 Cor 12:27)
I am free forever from condemnation ( Rom. 8: 1-2)
I am a citizen of Heaven. I am significant (Phil 3:20)
I am free from any charge against me (Rom. 8:31 -34)
I am a minister of reconciliation for God (2 Cor 5:17-21)
I have access to God through the Holy Spirit (Eph… 2:18)
I am seated with Christ in the heavenly realms (Eph. 2:6)
I cannot be separated from the love of God (Rom 8:35-39)
I am established, anointed, sealed by God (2 Cor 1:21-22 )
I am assured all things work together for good (Rom… 8:28 )
I have been chosen and appointed to bear fruit (John 15:16 )
I may approach God with freedom and confidence (Eph. 3: 12 )
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me (Phil. 4:13)
I am the branch of the true vine, a channel of His life (John 15: 1-5)
I am God’s temple (1 Cor. 3: 16). I am complete in Christ (Col. 2: 10)
I am hidden with Christ in God ( Col. 3:3). I have been justified (Romans 5:1)
I am God’s co-worker (1 Cor. 3:9; 2 Cor 6:1). I am God’s workmanship (Eph. 2:10)
I am confident that the good works God has begun in me will be perfected. (Phil. 1: 5)
I have been redeemed and forgiven ( Col 1:14). I have been adopted as God’s child (Eph 1:5)

That is beatiful!:christmastree1:
MERRY CHRISTMAS

 

[Roamin_Xian]

The question is not what will be judged, but who. Those are saved will avoid the last judgement. We will have already been given our judgement with Christ as our advocate.

Hank,

You are not saved just at one point. Here’s a solid, Biblical way to consider it:

**A little girl asked a priest/bishop/clergymember if he (she) was saved. The minister of God responded:

I have been saved, and I am in the process of being saved.**

This Protestant notion of “once saved always saved” is a comforting idea, but it is not one promoted by Jesus. He very much adhered to a Jewish notion of salvation- belief in the Almighty and doing works of tzedakah (loose translatition- charity)- aka, GOOD WORKS. God judges us in the afterlife based upon our works. Not just those who say “Lord, Lord”.

 

[Cinette]

**THE CHRISTMAS BELL **
I KNOW WHO I AM
I am God’s child (John 1:12)
I am Christ’s friend (John 15:15 )
I am united with the Lord (1 Cor. 6:17)
I am bought with a price (1 Cor 6:19-20)
I am a saint (set apart for God). (Eph. 1:1)
I am a personal witness of Christ. (Acts 1:8)
I am the salt & light of the earth (Matt 5:13-14)
I am a member of the body of Christ (1 Cor 12:27)
I am free forever from condemnation ( Rom. 8: 1-2)
I am a citizen of Heaven. I am significant (Phil 3:20)
I am free from any charge against me (Rom. 8:31 -34)
I am a minister of reconciliation for God (2 Cor 5:17-21)
I have access to God through the Holy Spirit (Eph… 2:18)
I am seated with Christ in the heavenly realms (Eph. 2:6)
I cannot be separated from the love of God (Rom 8:35-39)
I am established, anointed, sealed by God (2 Cor 1:21-22 )
I am assured all things work together for good (Rom… 8:28 )
I have been chosen and appointed to bear fruit (John 15:16 )
I may approach God with freedom and confidence (Eph. 3: 12 )
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me (Phil. 4:13)
I am the branch of the true vine, a channel of His life (John 15: 1-5)
I am God’s temple (1 Cor. 3: 16). I am complete in Christ (Col. 2: 10)
I am hidden with Christ in God ( Col. 3:3). I have been justified (Romans 5:1)
I am God’s co-worker (1 Cor. 3:9; 2 Cor 6:1). I am God’s workmanship (Eph. 2:10)
I am confident that the good works God has begun in me will be perfected. (Phil. 1: 5)
I have been redeemed and forgiven ( Col 1:14). I have been adopted as God’s child (Eph 1:5)
I belong to God
And so do
you

 

[HankZ]

Hank,

You are not saved just at one point. Here’s a solid, Biblical way to consider it:

**A little girl asked a priest/bishop/clergymember if he (she) was saved. The minister of God responded:

I have been saved, and I am in the process of being saved.**

This Protestant notion of “once saved always saved” is a comforting idea, but it is not one promoted by Jesus. He very much adhered to a Jewish notion of salvation- belief in the Almighty and doing works of tzedakah (loose translatition- charity)- aka, GOOD WORKS. God judges us in the afterlife based upon our works. Not just those who say “Lord, Lord”.

You might want to read the gospels again.

 

[Roamin_Xian]

I notice a marked difference between Paul of Tarsus and his followers (Greco Romans) and those of St. James, Bishop of Jerusalem (the Jewish Christians). The Jerusalem based Church very much retained the notion of “salvation by faith and works”, while Paul, who never met Jesus in person, SEEMED TO propogate the theological notion that you can be saved without works. Or as I like to call it, lazy Christianity.

I notice that the Protestant Reformation based most of their arguments on Paul’s writings. I never understood why they were retained- he is the source of Christian division.

 

[Roamin_Xian]

You might want to read the gospels again.

Epistle of St. James, Bishop of Jerusalem (actually knew Jesus and his message)-

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has false faith but has not works? Can false faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?
17 So false faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
18 But some one will say, “You have false faith and I have works.” Show me your false faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my false faith.
19 You believe with false faith that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe that with false faith–and shudder.
20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that false faith apart from works is barren?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that false faith was active along with his works, and false faith was completed by works,
23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God with false faith, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by false faith alone.
25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 **For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so false faith apart from works is dead. **

 

[twb1621]

The question is not what will be judged, but who. Those are saved will avoid the last judgement. We will have already been given our judgement with Christ as our advocate.

Can you explain the purpose of the following if we are not to do good works toward our salvation?
Math CH 25 31 14 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a strange and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ 41 17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”